Compromising with wife

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well the first step for settling this is to have some respect for your wife. The next step would be to present the logical facts for your case out there without emotion. And also realize that her opinion may be valid or it may not be but it should be handled like all parenting decisions with respect for the other parent. Your post about your wife lacks this respect.

There are those who do not vaccinate and they have valid reasons for doing so. Others do. We do. But honestly, I could go either way with it. Your child won’t die without them realistically speaking. What is the compromise you would offer that the title of the thread alludes to? Why are you two so far apart on this issue. Is it just this issue or is this about many many things. Could you elaborate a little please about your situation?

Here is my post from earlier.

There are those who do not vaccinate and they have valid reasons for doing so. Others do. ** We do.**

This post is exactly correct. It is logical and points to wondering if there can be some understanding on the issue from Pedro who is quite adamant and put offish with his wife. It is not I who am using words like stupid, telling people children will die, accusing them of endangering others and showing emotional videos.

I have said many times that we vaccinate. I have also said I can see why someone would not. Why is that the irrational position in your eyes?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

From your first post on the thread (#24) and others, I got the impression that you do not vaccinate according to the mainstream guidelines. Perhaps I am misled.

I didn’t watch the video and don’t care to (frankly today do not have the time - video requires little children be sleeping )

My position, summed up, is this: What is the greater risk - the risk posed by the vaccine or the risk posed by contracting the disease? Do the less risky thing. For the vast majority of people, IMO, the risk posed by contracting the disease is a lot greater. For those who can’t be vaccinated (the very young, immune-compromised, allergic reaction, what have you), the rest of us who are help provide protection from that disease.

I do think doctors could do a better job being upfront about potential risks - not just of vaccines but of everything. There is a tendency, IMO, in medicine to downplay the medical risks of procedures and medications that doctors deal with everyday, because to them they are ordinary, and to hype the risks of doing nothing/letting nature take its course (they lose control then.) I’ve seen this at play in my care and the care for my children, especially regarding pregnancy and childbirth. I get why that happens, but I don’t think it necessarily does patients favors. (Like when I was giving birth to my first and anesthesiologist told me there were “no risks” to an epidural. False, false, false! Now, I had it and it was fine, as it would be in most cases, and I would have no problem with him saying, “This can happen, but the risk is this percent and because you are a, b, c, we think you are a good candidate for it” but that’s not the same as, “I do this every day so it’s safe.”)

I agree with your position. actually 100 percent.

But you really need to watch the video if you are going to back her up. Pay attention to the immages and words on the website. And you have time, you have time to type this.

 

[bitterhope]

Medical advice can and does change. Medicine is a constantly changing field. Drugs, vaccines, foods that are considered healthy, safe and effective end up being recalled or discouraged. People have every right to go against medical advice and sometimes that choice is correct for that particular person/family.

Every woman on both sides of my family is in the medical field. There are pediatricians, medical research, pharmacists, nurses, pharmacy techs, and some currently in school for something in the medical field. Some of the men are (most are farmers or law enforcement), but every single woman is. One of my aunts, an 87 year old pediatrician, will tell you in her career it has been a common occurrence for the AAP to flip flip back and forth on issues. It happens often. Doctors and bureaucrats make up the AAP. It is not made up by God, it is not headed by an infallible Pope. They do make mistakes and they do change their minds. A reasonable person can decide to go against medical advice on any number of issues and it is NOT sinning, they may actually be making the right choice for their family.

Look, I agree people should vaccinate. I don’t agree that the HAVE to vaccinate. I understand the objections to vaccinations. As a Catholic I really don’t want it to become mandatory to follow medical advice, especially the medical advice in women’s health.

 

[JSSD]

Sorry to be way, way late to this.

I can speak to this. And I wish to bring it around to vaccinations. Thalidomide was brought up earlier and it was pointed out that in the US that it was not approved. HOWEVER. It was used. And scientists and medical professionals did approve it in Germany. When using science and medicine as your foundation you cannot then arbitrarily bring geography into it. My wife has had first hand work with the FDA regulatory process from the food side. The FDA is not really any sort of medical standard. Fen Phen, Yazmin, Yaz, and countless other drugs were approved given out like candy and then recalled. On any given day a study is released about how a drug, or a food, or a chemical my be harmful.
Many people who look down on those who don’t vaccinate will do as you just did and point to processed foods (a catch all term really) or GMOs or hormones in milk and make all sort of decisions for their bodies and their children’s bodies. With very little scientific information and a whole lot of distrust (warranted if you ask me) But yet it is quite hypocritical to then turn around and belittle or judge those who make a decision different from our own. And while if everyone did not vaccinate we would have a problem, I have no problem with a parent deciding not to do it specifically for their child because either of religious reasons (pro life) or health ones.

I think you mentioned that you were a pharmacist. **You know better than anyone that drugs are a weighted decision. The benefit of the drug, vs. the harm it may do. I find no problem with those who treat vaccinations the same way. **

My entire family tested positive for H1N1 after the shots. We got it from the immunizations. It is not the first time that we have gotten sick after the immunizations. We do not immunize for the flu any more. Our doctor confirmed that it was the exact thing we were immunized for and that the timing was such that he believed it was the vaccination. It almost killed my newborn. Yet, we are told and told that it is impossible, that we were not given a live virus and that we probably contracted it before the vaccination.

My second youngest daughter had very very serious complications in her early life. Feeding tubes, sensory issues genetic deletions etc. Because her immune system is compromised they advised AGAINST immunizations for a good part of her infancy.

It was not that long ago that doctors told people to expose children to someone with a disease. (Chicken pox) to get “immune” to it. So parents would actually intentionally give their children chickenpox because that is what “Doctors” said.

So, yes, we immunize. And yes we eat corn (98 percent of corn is GMO) And yes, we drink milk with hormones and eat Cheetos. AND I used to think that those who were “hippies” about such things (the op’s description) were mentally inferior to those of us who were in the industry. Then I saw the process, the money, and the unquestioning approval by the FDA on certain things. And I saw how people would take such approval as meaning it was never going to harm them.

Vaccinations save lives. GMO food, feeds the world. But I don’t really question those who wish to make the decision to opt out for whatever reason. I used to though and now, not so much.

There is very little here I’d disagree with. To the bolded part, I think I mentioned risk / benefit twice, in fact. I consider myself as much economist as pharmacist. But to that, in absence of known risk the benefit / risk ratio is tremendously weighted to benefit. You (and others) found risks AFTER, or had interesting comorbidities which altered your ratio. I have no problems with that. Realistically, I have no problems with refusers for any reason, but, minimal sympathy as well.

The only thing I’m not completely with is the FDA. Your wife would know what an unbelievably complicated job they have, because of the “three thing” I noted above. They are under tremendous political and industrial pressure. I think it is a terrible job that no one would ever want, but it is also an incredibly difficult job that I certainly don’t envy.

To your point about thalidomide geography, yeah, it was used here. I sort of hate to be like this, but I have as much sympathy for that as I do for folks importing medicines from Mexico and Canada to save a dollar.

Since beating cancer, I’ve gone vegetarian and have tried to cut out processed foods just for myself. Minimal dairy too. But, like yourself, I see no need to demonize GMOs and do not agree with the flak Monsanto constantly gets. When the UN is suggesting 3rd world countries eat bugs for protein nutrition, I’m ALL about the GMOs. I’d rather people get cancer maybe later than starve imminently. But, given the choice that most Americans have, our dietary habits are really pretty bad in terms of additives. $0.02

 

[pensmama87]

I agree with your position. actually 100 percent.

But you really need to watch the video if you are going to back her up. Pay attention to the immages and words on the website. And you have time, you have time to type this.

Fine. If I can get both kids to sleep at the same time today, I’ll watch it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Fine. If I can get both kids to sleep at the same time today, I’ll watch it.

Deal!

 

[pensmama87]

Here is my post from earlier.

This post is exactly correct. It is logical and points to wondering if there can be some understanding on the issue from Pedro who is quite adamant and put offish with his wife. It is not I who am using words like stupid, telling people children will die, accusing them of endangering others and showing emotional videos.

I have said many times that we vaccinate. * I have also said I can see why someone would not. Why is that the irrational position in your eyes?*

I don’t think your overall position is irrational (as you noted later we agree), I just think Xantippe got heaped on for pointing out (not necessarily to you but in general) that not vaccinating is not risk-free, and could pose risks to others.

Maybe the video is hype. But her words didn’t strike me that way. That is absolutely all that I was saying.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Sorry to be way, way late to this.

There is very little here I’d disagree with. To the bolded part, I think I mentioned risk / benefit twice, in fact. I consider myself as much economist as pharmacist. But to that, in absence of known risk the benefit / risk ratio is tremendously weighted to benefit. You (and others) found risks AFTER, or had interesting comorbidities which altered your ratio. I have no problems with that. Realistically, I have no problems with refusers for any reason, but, minimal sympathy as well.

The only thing I’m not completely with is the FDA. Your wife would know what an unbelievably complicated job they have, because of the “three thing” I noted above. They are under tremendous political and industrial pressure. I think it is a terrible job that no one would ever want, but it is also an incredibly difficult job that I certainly don’t envy.

To your point about thalidomide geography, yeah, it was used here. I sort of hate to be like this, but I have as much sympathy for that as I do for folks importing medicines from Mexico and Canada to save a dollar.

Since beating cancer, I’ve gone vegetarian and have tried to cut out processed foods just for myself. Minimal dairy too. But, like yourself, I see no need to demonize GMOs and do not agree with the flak Monsanto constantly gets. When the UN is suggesting 3rd world countries eat bugs for protein nutrition, I’m ALL about the GMOs. I’d rather people get cancer maybe later than starve imminently. But, given the choice that most Americans have, our dietary habits are really pretty bad in terms of additives. $0.02

Yeah, that all makes sense.

I am not demonizing the FDA and like you I understand their position is a political one that you and I would not want. But that is the very reason I really don’t give much weight to anything they do or say. I have seen first hand FDA approvals that are a complete joke. For that reason, the FDA is just chatter to me.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t think your overall position is irrational (as you noted later we agree), I just think Xantippe got heaped on for pointing out (not necessarily to you but in general) that not vaccinating is not risk-free, and could pose risks to others.

Maybe the video is hype. But her words didn’t strike me that way. That is absolutely all that I was saying.

I think you just were in a hurry to defend a sista. From what I have seen of her, she doesn’t need it. I am not attacking her, just her sensationalist approach to this specific subject that is out of line with all her other arguments that usually would never employ such tactics.

 

[pensmama87]

I think you just were in a hurry to defend a sista. From what I have seen of her, she doesn’t need it. I am not attacking her, just her sensationalist approach to this specific subject that is out of line with all her other arguments that usually would never employ such tactics.

I don’t think it’s sensationalist.

But then I didn’t watch the video.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t think it’s sensationalist.

But then I didn’t watch the video.

Well I look forward to your response when you are informed.

 

[JSSD]

Yeah, that all makes sense.

I am not demonizing the FDA and like you I understand their position is a political one that you and I would not want. But that is the very reason I really don’t give much weight to anything they do or say. I have seen first hand FDA approvals that are a complete joke. For that reason, the FDA is just chatter to me.

It is, but it is all we have. Getting way off topic, how might you change it?
I don’t know what I’d do, personally. I acknowledge the problem but have no palatable solutions to offer.

I thought the Xigris approval was egregious given the equivocal data, but at the time sepsis was red hot and “we had to have something!!!” Maybe.

On the other hand, what about Baycol and especially Trovan? We could have found these problems with bigger/longer phase 3 trials, but do we really want that much pre-clinical? Maybe we (society) do, but we (patients) don’t. Obviously this adds tremendously to cost and as-is, costs are a key issue and complaint. To your examples, Yaz, etc looked like a “me-too” and Phentermine is back under prescription. People demand it because ‘weight loss is hard’ (I guess).

Life has risks. A lot of them. You can’t legislate risk away. If you take a medicine, you’re taking a risk. Best you can do with the knowledge at the time. People want complete safety, but we’ll never have that to offer. Even Pharmacogenomics will only get you so close, but it won’t be close enough.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It is, but it is all we have. Getting way off topic, how might you change it?
I don’t know what I’d do, personally. I acknowledge the problem but have no palatable solutions to offer.

I thought the Xigris approval was egregious given the equivocal data, but at the time sepsis was red hot and “we had to have something!!!” Maybe.

On the other hand, what about Baycol and especially Trovan? We could have found these problems with bigger/longer phase 3 trials, but do we really want that much pre-clinical? Maybe we (society) do, but we (patients) don’t. Obviously this adds tremendously to cost and as-is, costs are a key issue and complaint. To your examples, Yaz, etc looked like a “me-too” and Phentermine is back under prescription. People demand it because ‘weight loss is hard’ (I guess).

Life has risks. A lot of them. You can’t legislate risk away. If you take a medicine, you’re taking a risk. Best you can do with the knowledge at the time. People want complete safety, but we’ll never have that to offer. Even Pharmacogenomics will only get you so close, but it won’t be close enough.

Man, I have no idea how to fix it. We live in a world where women put synthetic hormones in their bodies so they can have sex without children but whine about organic milk.

But, I believe that there are many many things in this country and the world that cannot be fixed. Perhaps this is one of those.

 

[JSSD]

Yeah.
I can say putting “boxed warnings” around everything and handing out “approved” patient info sheets isn’t the solution. I know that.

 

[pensmama87]

Well I look forward to your response when you are informed.

OK, so I watched the video (I assume you’re referring to the one linked in post 68).

I still don’t think it was sensationalist. It’s 10 minutes of unedited video. Did the creator have a position? Yes, that was clear. Was it posted on a blog post where the author had a clear position? Yes. But showing unedited footage of what it’s like to suffer from a vaccine-preventable disease is not sensationalist, IMO. “Sensationalist” and “scare tactics” would be putting the thing in gray scale with dark music underneath the coughs and subtitles stating repeatedly, “Is this what you want for your child?”

Maybe there was a different video posted and I missed it.

 

[Lorelei12]

OK, so I watched the video (I assume you’re referring to the one linked in post 68).

I still don’t think it was sensationalist. It’s 10 minutes of unedited video. Did the creator have a position? Yes, that was clear. Was it posted on a blog post where the author had a clear position? Yes. But showing unedited footage of what it’s like to suffer from a vaccine-preventable disease is not sensationalist, IMO. “Sensationalist” and “scare tactics” would be putting the thing in gray scale with dark music underneath the coughs and subtitles stating repeatedly, “Is this what you want for your child?”

Maybe there was a different video posted and I missed it.

Coming into this discussion late, but I agree with you. I watched the video- it’s awful. But I don’t think it’s “sensationalist”. It’s simply a depiction of an illness that parents may or may not choose to protect their child from. And what is wrong with someone watching the video and deciding to vaccinate their child based on what they saw, anyway? A lot of people do not realize how serious whooping cough really is.

I don’t think people should be forced to vaccinate their children, and I understand that there are some very compelling reasons not to sometimes. And I think that even parents who choose not to vaccinate generally do it because they truly believe they are protecting their children. It’s the parents who say “well, my kids don’t need to be vaccinated because most of the rest of them are” that really bother me. I imagine those parents would feel pretty terrible if their kids ended up getting something serious because they were that ignorant.

I’ll have a new baby pretty soon, and I’m a little afraid to take him out in public for awhile, until he’s vaccinated. The grocery store, church, pediatrician’s office, wherever…it makes me nervous to think he could pick something up somewhere before he’s had a chance to get his.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I imagine those parents would feel pretty terrible if their kids ended up getting something serious because they were that ignorant.

I’ll have a new baby pretty soon, and I’m a little afraid to take him out in public for awhile, until he’s vaccinated. The grocery store, church, pediatrician’s office, wherever…it makes me nervous to think he could pick something up somewhere before he’s had a chance to get his.

ignorant about what exactly? How about those of us who are ignorant of the harms and risks of vaccinating, I would imagine a parent would feel equally as bad because they unquestioningly followed the herd and doctors “orders” On something that has a risk.

I’ll have a new baby pretty soon, and I’m a little afraid to take him out in public for awhile, until he’s vaccinated. The grocery store, church, pediatrician’s office, wherever…it makes me nervous to think he could pick something up somewhere before he’s had a chance to get his.

Have you been medically counseled not to take a child out in public because of this? It would be rare for a doctor to advise this way. If you are in a first world country I think it is ok to take little johnny to be baptized at Mass. Educated logic should dictate both sides, not irrational fear.

 

[fencersmother]

*How dare you send your unvaccinated child to my vaccinated child’s school. *

I find this the most ironic of all the arguments put forth above. H.e.l.l.o. You vaccinated your child; chances are, Lil Johnny is not going to get the measles, whether my child does or not.

So, it seems I am 'bout the only one who decided NOT to vaccinate her children here, and not because of a medical issue. Chiefly, for us, it was the aborted fetal tissue which made us turn away from this source of “health.” Just couldn’t do it and live with ourselves later.

But, almost all of our parental decisions have gone against the grain of society: we homeschooled, didn’t play soccer, didn’t put our teenaged daughters on the pill, didn’t allow our kids to drive until age 18.

In other news, many of your pediatricians get a kick-back for using a certain vaccine rather than another company’s brand. It is in their best financial interest to distribute them (two brothers are pediatricians; both confirmed this).

So, to continue the “yeah, we’re weirdos” trends: our kids didn’t go to pre–school and turned out normal; we didn’t take them to New York City or the southern border or Los Angeles as infants but stayed in our local neighborhood (which is pretty rural). ONE child got whooping cough and because we were careful , no one else got it.

I am surprised that Catholics do not find more disgust with HOW their childrens’ vaccines came into existence. Really? That admitted aborted fetal tissue doesn’t matter any more so long as Lil Johnny doesn’t get the mumps? How do you square that one with your maker when you die? “Sorry God. I just didn’t want Susie to miss her second grade field trip so I had her injected with xxx.”

If you chose to vaccinate your child, bully for you. If some of us choose not to - why do we have to line up and live your group-think? Because your child’s vaccine might fail? Or just because you didn’t have the courage NOT to vaccinate?

 

[Lorelei12]

ignorant about what exactly? How about those of us who are ignorant of the harms and risks of vaccinating, I would imagine a parent would feel equally as bad because they unquestioningly followed the herd and doctors “orders” On something that has a risk.

As I mentioned in my post, I am referring to those parents who simply don’t bother with vaccinations because they figure their kids are protected anyway. I am not referring to parents who make an informed decision not to vaccinate. But there are parents who simply can’t be bothered and aren’t worried about it too much because they know that because most people are vaccinated, their kids are pretty well protected. I’d guess that if we had some kind of horrible epidemic, these parents might care a little more.

Have you been medically counseled not to take a child out in public because of this? It would be rare for a doctor to advise this way. If you are in a first world country I think it is ok to take little johnny to be baptized at Mass. Educated logic should dictate both sides, not irrational fear.

I didn’t say I wasn’t going to take him out, I said that it made me nervous. And it does. I actually don’t really think it’s an “irrational fear” to worry about an infant getting whooping cough or something else he isn’t yet protected from. Some people ask their whole families to get vaccinated for everything; I’m not going anywhere near that far. But it does concern me, especially since I need to put my child in daycare at 8 weeks.

 

[LongingSoul]

*How dare you send your unvaccinated child to my vaccinated child’s school. *

I find this the most ironic of all the arguments put forth above. H.e.l.l.o. You vaccinated your child; chances are, Lil Johnny is not going to get the measles, whether my child does or not.

So, it seems I am 'bout the only one who decided NOT to vaccinate her children here, and not because of a medical issue. Chiefly, for us, it was the aborted fetal tissue which made us turn away from this source of “health.” Just couldn’t do it and live with ourselves later.

But, almost all of our parental decisions have gone against the grain of society: we homeschooled, didn’t play soccer, didn’t put our teenaged daughters on the pill, didn’t allow our kids to drive until age 18.

In other news, many of your pediatricians get a kick-back for using a certain vaccine rather than another company’s brand. It is in their best financial interest to distribute them (two brothers are pediatricians; both confirmed this).

So, to continue the “yeah, we’re weirdos” trends: our kids didn’t go to pre–school and turned out normal; we didn’t take them to New York City or the southern border or Los Angeles as infants but stayed in our local neighborhood (which is pretty rural). ONE child got whooping cough and because we were careful , no one else got it.

I am surprised that Catholics do not find more disgust with HOW their childrens’ vaccines came into existence. Really? That admitted aborted fetal tissue doesn’t matter any more so long as Lil Johnny doesn’t get the mumps? How do you square that one with your maker when you die? “Sorry God. I just didn’t want Susie to miss her second grade field trip so I had her injected with xxx.”

If you chose to vaccinate your child, bully for you. If some of us choose not to - why do we have to line up and live your group-think? Because your child’s vaccine might fail? Or just because you didn’t have the courage NOT to vaccinate?

At least half of us on the thread vaccinated but support the right of ‘conscientious objectors’ not to vaccinate… but if your high and mighty, random machine gun mow down of the lot of us represents all conscientious objectors, maybe I’ll rethink that.

In reality, I think that people should have the right to opt out of vaccinations and we can accommodate that as a society with certain safeguards.

The Church has examined this issue and ok’d it for Catholics to vaccinate. You are wrong to look down your nose at us in this way.