Concept of Time

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I don’t think that time exists outside of this world. If this is true how can we better understand concepts that we associate with time such as time spent in purgatory?
 
Well, consider that the material universe is composed of space, matter, energy and time (or if you like quantum physics, matter is merely energy standing still). Time, space and matter/energy are creations of God, therefore He exists outside of time, space and matter/energy (hard to grasp, huh? 😉 just remember that God is spiritual, not material as the universe is ;)). Heaven too is free from the contraints of the material universe- the Beatific Vision is spiritual bliss, not temporal or material. However, our Catholic faith teaches us that Purgatory is a place of temporal pain- therefore, I would assume that Purgatory is itself temporal, and would thus be constrained by time.
 
Thank you for responding.
Caesar said:
However, our Catholic faith teaches us that Purgatory is a place of temporal pain- therefore, I would assume that Purgatory is itself temporal, and would thus be constrained by time.
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I don’t understand how that can be since it is outside of this universe unless it is a different form of time.
 
Coder said:
I don’t think that time exists outside of this world. If this is true how can we better understand concepts that we associate with time such as time spent in purgatory?
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Could you define what “time” is, exactly, before we begin pondering the nature of its existence?
 
mike182d said:
Could you define what “time” is, exactly, …?
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Time is a unit or measurement that we refer to in order to consider events in sequence and coordinate events. For example, if there is a meeting at 9am then upon observing that the event stepper that we call a “clock” shows 9am, we go to the meeting. Time apart from physical events is perhaps impossible to conceive.

Outside of this world, I think we cannot speak of time in the way we think of it here. This is why I don’t think we can speak of life outside this world such as in purgatory, in terms of time. Yet, it seems the time spent in purgatory is referred to. I think this concept may be very limited or in error. I don’t know for sure so I ask.
 
The passing of time exists. However, the way we measure time is earth-centric *. That’s why time to God is meaningless in terms of Earth time…He was here before He created the Earth, and He will be after the earth is gone.

EDIT ADD: Actually, I don’t even know that…to God everything past and present may happen instantaneously…I can’t fathom God.

In relation to eternity, time (in our understanding) is irrelevant. Therefore, we may very well spend one hundred or one thousand years (as we understand it) in purgatory, but in relation to eternity in heaven after purgatory what does that mean? Nothing.*
 
See this link from my sister in-laws site, Salve Regina:

“I find it reassuring to know that God exists outside of time - that for the Lord, the past does not exist; the future does not exist. Everything is an eternal present. That means our prayers for others, even years after their death, have already been taken into account by God, so that even now we can pray for the happy death of our loved ones.”

paramedicgoldengirl.blogspot.com/2006/12/eternal-rest-grant-unto-her-o-lord.html
 
Frank_Fenn said:
See this link from my sister in-laws site, Salve Regina:

“I find it reassuring to know that God exists outside of time - that for the Lord, the past does not exist; the future does not exist. Everything is an eternal present. That means our prayers for others, even years after their death, have already been taken into account by God, so that even now we can pray for the happy death of our loved ones.”

paramedicgoldengirl.blogspot.com/2006/12/eternal-rest-grant-unto-her-o-lord.html
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That was something I learned from reading Padre Pio. He often talked about the concept of God existing outside of time.
 
That is a beautiful web site. Thank you.

It is a wonder to ponder if in heaven or purgatory there is any experience related to events in sequence (time) that we experience here. I think our understanding of time in this world should be referenced to God’s kingdom rather than attempting to conceive of something like earthly time in God’s kingdom. In this way it may be our error of the concept of earthly time that is corrected!

We are taught by Scripture to look towards heaven and not the things of this world!
 
paramedicgirl said:
That was something I learned from reading Padre Pio. He often talked about the concept of God existing outside of time.
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But, that’s not the OP’s question. I agree that God probably exists outside of time, but does time exist outside of this world?

I would argue, yes, it does, just not to an infinite being. We are not infinite.
 
If this is true how can we better understand concepts that we associate with time such as time spent in purgatory?
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Time is a material phenomenom. As such, it is not experienced by incorporeal beings.

Purgatory should not be thought of as having “time” in the absolute sense. People often associate purgatory with time, in large part because of confusion over the old way of measuring partial indulgences based on “days” and “years” which really meant the equivalent time in a corresponding ancient public penance, not time off from purgatory.

The different degrees of purgatory are likely differences in intensity, not duration.

However, purgatory in some sense may be linked with earth time based on when causative events happen that effect purgatory, like when the Mass is said or Indulgences is offered that finally frees them. So if it takes 400 years for that suffrage to be offered, the person seems (from an earth perspective of the sequence of events) to be in purgatory “400 years”.

But does God really increase the suffering of souls in purgatory just because action is slow to take place on earth? I doubt it, because they have a fixed amount of debt that needs to be paid. From our perspective they may be there “longer,” but from their own perspective it is probably just as intense no matter when the suffrage takes place. The AMOUNT of suffrage therefore is probably what matters more than the timing. As that effect how much of their debt they have to pay themselves and how much they are helped by the Church’s treasury, and thus how intense the suffering is. The more you offer and pay for them through masses and indulgences, the less they will have had to pay themselves through the intensity of their own suffering.

Therefore, when speaking of offering sufferage for souls in Purgatory, I would simply speak of it as a work of mercy absolutely: Masses said and Indulgences offered contribute to the freeing of the soul and the payment of their debt, period. Without any qualifiers like “sooner” or “more quickly” which I think in some sense are a pious misconception.
 
Time must exist IMO, because of Rev 22:13 …“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end”

or…

Our understanding of it may end with the end of this world, but there are too many things that indicate time exists. For example the time it takes for a distant star’s light to become visible.

Make sense ?
 
If you are looking for some serious philosophy on the matter, I suggest reading what Spinoza has to say on eternity. despite some of his other somewhat misguided works, his grasp of eternity and time is second to none. I think you will find his work on it in Books I-II of the Ethics.
This page should help:
home.earthlink.net/~tneff/index.html

Also, maybe “God’s clock” will help:
http://home.earthlink.net/~tneff/eclock.gif

I also have a paper that I wrote on Spinoza’s understanding of the infinite that you might like to read. It mainly deals with spacial infinities, but when you are dealing with “Substance,” eternity usually gets dragged in. . .

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
 
The thing is, since we believe in resurrection of the body, I don’t think we will be infinite beings, even though we will live for eternity in heaven. God, as an infinite being, has a different “clock” than we do.
Thursday1 said:
If you are looking for some serious philosophy on the matter, I suggest reading what Spinoza has to say on eternity. despite some of his other somewhat misguided works, his grasp of eternity and time is second to none. I think you will find his work on it in Books I-II of the Ethics.
This page should help:
home.earthlink.net/~tneff/index.html

Also, maybe “God’s clock” will help:
http://home.earthlink.net/~tneff/eclock.gif

I also have a paper that I wrote on Spinoza’s understanding of the infinite that you might like to read. It mainly deals with spacial infinities, but when you are dealing with “Substance,” eternity usually gets dragged in. . .

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
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Your soul is glued to your temporal body or, your temporal body exists in your soul. Does your soul experience time while it lives with your body here on earth - for 70 or 80 years or so. Does it matter if time does not exist outside this world, if your soul already knows how to experience time and your body lives in it. Could your soul be given an impression of time in purgatory because it can recognize the experience of time, even if time itself does not exist there. As in heaven, where there is no time as we understand it, our soul would experience time in a very different way as something always existing.
 
Since time is a quality of matter the concept of “time in purgatory” is meaningless because we have ceased to exist as material constructs.
Suffice it to say that theologians have theorized that only a purified soul may enter the presence of the Most High. Again note that we cannot express the concept without reference to material existence. There is no “place” without matter. Bear in mind that these are only theories and that no one knows what existence without material extension may look like.
Einstein remarked once that “Time is how God keeps everything from happening at once.”
Short answer: No one knows. Why do we care?

Matthew
 
In general relativity time is defined by a sequence of physical changes in the universe. Much of the introductory material in a book such as ‘Gravitation’ by Thorn, Wheeler, and Misner was spent in finding a definition of time such that the laws of physics are ‘simple’. Not that easy in an accellerating frame of reference.

If nothing changes, time has not passed. So if God is unchanging, He does not experience time.

Physical creatures, experience time because things change. Time does not ‘seem’ to pass when we do not experience it. EG in a coma or under anethesia.

In purgatory, we are not physical, yet we change. If change is the basis of a definition of time, time does occur in purgatory. So it must lie between God and His angels who do not exist in time, and the physical universe where time is evident by our mutual experience of change.

On the other hand. Phylosophy defines time differently. I don’t have the book with me but I remember at least 3 definitions of time. One is newtonian (time exists before the creation of the universe, independent of change within the universe). One is Einsteinien such as described above and allowed for multiple universes in the same space if only one is allowed to change at a time:) and I don’t remember the other, but there was at least one other school of phylosopy on the concept of time. I had to read the book 6 times to really understand what was written but that was 15 years ago.
 
It is? What material does time consist of?
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Huh? Time is an accident so it doesn’t “consist of” matter…but it only applies to material substances.

I could similarly ask you “what material is place made out of?” Or “what material is height made out of?” Or “what material is color made out of?” and from a strict metaphysical standpoint, they aren’t made OF matter, because they inhere IN material substances. They are material phenomena, not material substances.
 
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