Concept of Time

[batteddy]

If change is the basis of a definition of time, time does occur in purgatory. So it must lie between God and His angels who do not exist in time, and the physical universe where time is evident by our mutual experience of change.

Yeah. Look at Aquinas (and other theologians) on the concept of “aeviternity” which is between the time of the body and the eternity of God…the state of spirits depending on a sucession of events “before” and “after” but not with continuous time, but rather discreet events.

 

[rlg94086]

Huh? Time is an accident so it doesn’t “consist of” matter…but it only applies to material substances.

I could similarly ask you “what material is place made out of?” Or “what material is height made out of?” Or “what material is color made out of?” and from a strict metaphysical standpoint, they aren’t made OF matter, because they inhere IN material substances. They are material phenomena, not material substances.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant. Phenomenon not substance…got it.

I still agree with the other poster who said, “why do we care?” If you can demonstrate to me the difference this discussion will make to what we actually experience in purgatory, I would be interested.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Time is the measure of motion. Something has to ‘move’ at a constant rate in order for time to have any meaning. For example, originally a second was defined as 1/86,400 of the mean solar day until it was discovered that a day was slowly slowing day. Then the second was redefined as the duration of 9 192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom.

As long as something, which we can observe & measure, moves at a constant rate, time exists.

If I remember my physics correctly, there is/was a theory that eventually our universe will cease to exist. Trillions of years from now all the stars in the universe will eventually burn themselves out. Many years after that, even the cloud of gluons which hold the two up quarks and one down quark within a proton will decay.

If a person were to some how be transported to this distant future, time would have no meaning for them because there would be nothing moving at a constant rate which they could observe.

The same concept applies to the souls in heaven, hell & purgatory. If they are unable to observe any constant rate of movement, time becomes meaningless for them. It has been said that one hour in purgatory FEELS like several years.

Why would this be so? Think back to your own expereinces. Have you ever found yourself in distasteful situation? Maybe a hour in a boring class or an evening on an unpleasant date. Does time SEEM to drag? Yet, when you are enjoying an activity, doesn’t time sometimes seem to fly by? However, in both cases time passes at the same speed even though in one case it SEEMS to move faster and in the other case it SEEMS to move slower.

The souls in purgatory don’t have a watch. They don’t see physical things changing (a sun rising or setting, etc.). For them, there is no motion that occurs at a constant rate that they can observe. For them, time has no meaning because they no longer have a point of reference.

 

[rlg94086]

Huh? Time is an accident so it doesn’t “consist of” matter…but it only applies to material substances.

I could similarly ask you “what material is place made out of?” Or “what material is height made out of?” Or “what material is color made out of?” and from a strict metaphysical standpoint, they aren’t made OF matter, because they inhere IN material substances. They are material phenomena, not material substances.

You know, I thought about this a little bit, and “height” and “color” are similar, but not really directly comparable to “time.” They are both static descriptions of matter (substance). Time stands apart from matter, or outside of it…I’m not sure of the best wording. It is a measurement of change, not a description of matter.

 

[Pax_Tibi]

This is a great post!
God is outside of time.
Jesus is God and Man. He has a body like us so He is “inside” time as man and "outside’ time as God. Doesn’t it follow somehow, that Jesus sanctified matter at that point when he became man and since we need matter to define time, wouldn’t that make time and matter eternal from that point.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I don’t think that time exists outside of this world. If this is true how can we better understand concepts that we associate with time such as time spent in purgatory?

Of time, Stephen Hawkingsaid this:

the idea that God might want to change his mind is an example of the fallacy, pointed out by St. Augustine, of imagining God as a being existing in time: time is a property only of the universe that God created.

Hawking also said this about the arrow of time:

Disorder increases with time because we measure time in the direction in which disorder increases.

But disorder increases relative to what? Relative to a boundary condition for Creation in which there was zero disorder. A metaphor for that boundary condition would be God.

But Hawking also notes:

“The boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundary.” The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE.

But a universe for which the boundary condition is zero violates the notion of entropy; that is, it renders the notion of increasing disorder and therefore the notion of time meaningless.

Physicists are loathe to question the laws of thermodynamics. So, we can assume:

• that the universe does have entropy;
• therefore the universe has a boundary condition greater than zero;
• therefore the universe is created;
• therefore the universe has a Creator.
  Now Sr Clare Fitzgerald has said (sorry I don’t have a link) that we are on a journey from God to God.

God, as the boundary condition of the universe has zero disorder. The journey is a journey through time through increasing disorder back to a boundary of condition of zero disorder.

But Time is an arrow. It only goes in one direction.

So how does one go from a point of maximum disorder (mortal sin) in one’s life to a point of zero disorder (reconciliation with God) without factoring in time? Thoughts, anyone?

Purgatory is about sanctification which is about change. Change can be either quantum or non-quantum.

Non-quantum change happens over time but a kind of time distinct from the kind of time in which disorder increases It is a kind of anti-time in which disorder decreases (which I believe to be implausible). I believe, for reasons set out below, that Purgatory is about quantum change; quantum theology, if you will.

If the change is quantum then that introduces all sorts of ontological challenges into the picture. One would be:

Are we both close to God and far from God at the same time before we die (as Schrodinger’s Cat was both alive and dead before we opened the box)?

Does the act of observing ourselves determine whether we are nearer or closer to God just as opening the box and observing Schrodinger’s Catdetermined whether the Cat was alive or dead?

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

(Um… I know I am broadcasting from outer space, but recently I have been thinking more and more about why folks see the world in radically disparate and unreconcilable ways.

What principle is at work here that renders the results of a thought-experiment unpredictable between randomly chosen pairs of observers?)

When we open the box, why does Schrodinger’s Cat turn up dead for one person and alive for another person where the unobserved state has the Cat both alive and dead? Is it random? Dumb luck? Probability? Or is there some factor of quantum-causality not yet calculated?

Extending the metaphor of Schrodinger’s Cat: let’s say I am in the box of mortal life. As long as no one opens the box I can exist in both boundary conditions of the universe – maximum and minimum disorder; sinful and sanctified – at the same time.

Once the box is opened, then some kind of choice is made. Because I am reasonable it follows that I have free will and that it is I who am making the choice. I see my own life. That act of observation determines that I am no longer both sinful and sanctified: it determines that I am either sinful or sanctified. I am either far from God or close to God.

Question is: do I still have free will in Purgatory? Or have I made my final choice at the moment before opening the box of mortal life – that is, at the moment before death?

The thief on the cross was sinful, yet made his final choice before his death. His direction therefore was toward God in Purgatory. And notice Purgatory was not a long drawn out affair. Jesus said, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

So, I am of the view that time – as we know it – does not exist in Purgatory. It takes time to wander away from God, but no time to return. And I could be so wrong that I will have to post a blushing smiley.



Thoughts anyone?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Evan:

If nothing changes, time has not passed. So if God is unchanging, He does not experience time.

Nice move.

Evan:

Time does not ‘seem’ to pass when we do not experience it. EG in a coma or under anethesia.

Or because there is no act of observation.

Evan:

In purgatory, we are not physical, yet we change. If change is the basis of a definition of time, time does occur in purgatory.

Yes, but is the change in Purgatory in the direction of increasing disorder? Hint: no. In which case, time as we know it, does not exist in Purgatory. Time is the cost of entropy.

 

[rlg94086]

Did you know that it is impossible to get hit by a bullet?

It has to go half the distance between you and the gun, then half again, half again, etc. It will never hit you - it will only get infinitessimally close to hitting you…and then travel half the distance again.

All of this talk of time in purgatory makes me think of that simple paradox. A bullet will in fact hit you, regardless of the completely logical argument which can be made to show it is mathematically impossible.

Our “time” in purgatory will be experienced. Whatever we can do to lessen our or our loved one’s “time” in purgatory would probably be a good thing.