Conception of the Theotokos

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What is the similarity between East and West beliefs on the conception of the Theotokos?

a. concieved without sin
b. full of grace from conception

Is there anything else?
 
Thanks, but didn’t really answer my question a whole lot. Being raised RC, I know that the IC revolves around Mary being concieved without Original Sin. But the basics of the theology is that Mary is full of grace conceived without sin, as I posted. I just wonder if there’s anything else about the Conception that East and West agree upon?
 
Thanks, but didn’t really answer my question a whole lot. Being raised RC, I know that the IC revolves around Mary being concieved without Original Sin. But the basics of the theology is that Mary is full of grace conceived without sin, as I posted. I just wonder if there’s anything else about the Conception that East and West agree upon?
That Mary’s conception came about naturally. Pope Benedict XIV in the 17th century formally condemned the opinion that Mary was conceived without human intercourse.

It should be noted that there are Orthodox today who misinterpret the IC as teaching exactly what it does not.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Thanks, but didn’t really answer my question a whole lot. Being raised RC, I know that the IC revolves around Mary being concieved without Original Sin. But the basics of the theology is that Mary is full of grace conceived without sin, as I posted. I just wonder if there’s anything else about the Conception that East and West agree upon?
The east and west agree on the Immaculate Conception.
 
That Mary’s conception came about naturally. Pope Benedict XIV in the 17th century formally condemned the opinion that Mary was conceived without human intercourse.

It should be noted that there are Orthodox today who misinterpret the IC as teaching exactly what it does not.

Blessings,
Marduk
Brother Marduk, can you please elaborate?
 
Well, for the East, “Original Sin” means death. So if the Mother of God died, then she indeed had “Original Sin.”

The question is really about what constitutes Original Sin. In the East, this is the impact of Adam’s sin of disobedience on our human nature which we have inherited from him.

In the East, in the case of BOTH the Mother of God and St John the Baptist, the feast of their Holy Conceptions are celebrated liturgically.

Since only the feast of a saint can be celebrated, this means that the Mother of God and John the Baptist were already saints i.e. sanctified at their respect Conceptions and in lieu of the tremendous role they played in salvation history.

So if the Mother of God was sanctified at her Conception, does this mean she was conceived without Original Sin? IF by OS, we mean some sort of stain such as what we contract in actual sin - then no, absolutely. The Mother of Christ our God had no sin - PERIOD.

By being sanctified in a dynamic manner (which means she was also sanctified at the Annunciation etc.), her All-Holiness completely mitigated the impact of Original Sin in her case. So, for example, she felt no pain when giving birth to Christ and her death was so gentle that it was a “falling asleep” or a “dormition.”

I don’t really know for sure what the West means by the “stain of Original Sin” and I’ve read explanations that appear to differ one from the other. So I just can’t say.

Kallistos Ware states in his “The Orthodox Way” that if he were Roman Catholic and believed in the “stain of Original Sin,” he would want the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception to assert that Mary was born free of any such stain.

However, in the Orthodox Kyivan Baroque era where there were such Orthodox Saints as St Dmitri of Rostov, St Peter Mohyla, St John Maximovych, St Sophronius Krystalsky, St Paul Koniuskevich and others (mentioned favourably by Dom Aelred Graham and other Roman Catholic writers), the veneration of the “Most holy and Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God” was highly honoured.

The Orthodox Kyivan Academy was even famous for trying to outdo the Catholic West in praising Mary’s Immaculate Conception in the 17th and 18th centuries. Orthodox students who went to study in Paris and Rome, came back home with a strong devotion to the Immaculate Conception. There were even Orthodox Brotherhoods of the Immaculate Conception (understood in the Western sense) where members wore medals similar to the Miraculous Medal and also took the “bloody vow” to defend to the death the Immaculate Conception of our Lady. The “Panaghia” prayer they said was, “All-Immaculate Theotokos, save us!” The western Akathist to the Immaculate Conception was also used widely by them. I recently saw a translation of this Akathist on a Russian Orthodox website - it was given in full with the qualifier that the IC was an “heretical doctrine.” 🙂

St Dmitri Tuptalo, Metropolitan of Rostov, was very influenced by Western devotions and was known to have prayed the Angelus at the turn of EVERY hour of the day and night (he loved the Rosary and devotion to the seven joys and sorrows of our Lady as well).

His positive views on the Immaculate Conception caused concern in Moscow and he was actually summoned to give an account of his writings on this before the Synod there. Of course, he wouldn’t change his mind on the matter!

I think that Roman Catholics should get to know some of these pro-Western devotions Orthodox Saints, including St Dmitri and St Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain and even included them in their calendar (you read correctly . . .).

I almost fell off my chair the other day when I read how St Nicodemos defended the veneration of the Sacred Heart of Christ (as did St Nicholas Kabasilas).

Nicodemos also translated the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius Loyola into Greek (without referencing the author, of course . . .). This book is still to be found in the spiritual literature on Mt Athos.

I think Roman Catholics would find themselves to be right at home among such Orthodox Saints, don’t you? 🙂

Alex
 
I’m interested in hearing your objection to the doctrine.
I will give you some objections from people far wiser than myself.

The Orthodox church does not accept the Catholic dogma of 1854 – the dogma of the immaculate conception of the Virgin, in the sense that she was exempt at birth from original sin. This would separate her from the human race, and she would then have been unable to transmit to her Son humanity. But Orthodoxy does not admit in the all-pure Virgin any individual sin, for that would be unworthy of the dignity of the Mother of God. - Sergius Bulgakov

This teaching, which seemingly has the aim of exalting the Mother of God, in reality completely denies all Her virtues. After all, if Mary, even in the womb of Her mother, when She could not even desire anything either good or evil, was preserved by God’s grace from every impurity, and then by that grace was preserved from sin even after Her birth, then in what does Her merit consist? If She could have been placed in the state of being unable to sin, and did not sin, then for what did God glorify Her? if She, without any effort, and without having any kind of impulses to sin, remained pure, then why is She crowned more than everyone else? There is no victory without an adversary - St John Maximovitch

As already said, original sin weighs on the descendants of Adam and of Eve as corruption, and not as legal responsibility or moral stain. The sin brought hereditary corruption and not a hereditary legal responsibility or a hereditary moral stain. In consequence the All-holy participated in the hereditary corruption, like all mankind, but with her love for God and her purity – understood as an imperturbable and unhesitating dedication of her love to God alone – she succeeded, through the grace of God, in sanctifying herself in Christ and making herself worthy of becoming the house of God… - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew

In Christ
Joe
 
The idea of the IC is necessary to tie up loose ends within the Augustinian view of Original Sin. As already posted, however, it takes away from Mary’s humanity, and therefore takes away from the humanity of Christ.
 
I really liked Patriarch Bartholomew’s Interpretation.

If the Idea of Original Sin includes mortal death then I believe the Theotokos was subject to it. But a lot of Roman Catholics believe her body was assumed into heaven before she gave her last breath. So that would even negate the corruption of the human form. = /
 
The shortfall of “Original Sin is death” is that Christ was also mortal. His flesh was pierced, He bled, and He died even without even the hint of “Original Sin” in Him. Also, if mortality is Original Sin, then there would have been no place for the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. This is why St. Athanasius taught, in “On the Incarnation”, that humans are by nature mortal, but can be preserved from their natural mortality by Divine Grace.

As for temptation towards evil, that is not was Original Sin is in Roman teaching, so objections based on Mary needing to overcome evil don’t hold. Adam and Eve were tempted by the Adversary despite being utterly pure and free from “Original Sin”, so in saying that Mary was free from Original Sin it is obvious that this doesn’t mean she was without temptations.

This is the problem with objecting to a teaching that you don’t actually understand; you may harden into a non-sensical position in reaction to your own misunderstood invention.

Peace and God bless!
 
This is the problem with objecting to a teaching that you don’t actually understand; you may harden into a non-sensical position in reaction to your own misunderstood invention.
This goes both way. The orthodox understanding precludes any need for an immaculate conception. Catholics need to stop trying to hoist it on us.
 
This goes both way. The orthodox understanding precludes any need for an immaculate conception. Catholics need to stop trying to hoist it on us.
I don’t see how that’s relevant to anything I posted. I’m talking about the fact that the Eastern Orthodox arguments presented here don’t actually address the Immaculate Conception and demonstrate a flawed understanding of the Latin teaching of Original Sin. There are also serious inconsistancies in a stance that says that “Original Sin” is mortality/death.

You can’t object to something you don’t understand, and putting up faulty propositions in opposition to a non-existant belief only leads to error.

As for the Immaculate Conception, it may not be necessary from an Eastern perspective, but it’s certainly been upheld by some great Eastern, post-Schism Saints like St. Gregory Palamas, so I’m quite comfortable accepting it, without having to accept any uniquely Western notions about Original Sin. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
As for the Immaculate Conception, it may not be necessary from an Eastern perspective, but it’s certainly been upheld by some great Eastern, post-Schism Saints like St. Gregory Palamas, so I’m quite comfortable accepting it, without having to accept any uniquely Western notions about Original Sin. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
St Gregory did not accept the 1854 Roman doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Of course that’s not even mentioning the great Roman theologians who rejected it. 😉
 
St Gregory did not accept the 1854 Roman doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Of course that’s not even mentioning the great Roman theologians who rejected it. 😉
St. Gregory Palamas went further than any Western theologian in saying that all of Mary’s ancestors were progressively purified and Graced, to the point that when Mary was conceived there was simply no corruption left to pass on to her. The 1854 declaration simply stated that Mary was specially Graced at her conception, which is much more conservative in comparison. I think it’s very safe to say that St. Gregory Palamas would be comfortable with the 1854 definition, though he might have felt that it didn’t go far enough in exalting the uniqueness of Mary. 😛

Peace and God bless!
 
I just want to make it clear that I’m not trying to convince anyone that the Immaculate Conception is true, I’m simply a) pointing out the flaws in certain objections to it, and b) pointing out that the Immaculate Conception has not always been considered contrary to an Eastern theological view.

My main concern is really a), because the arguments by which the Immaculate Conception is denied can lead to serious errors and divergence from Tradition, much in the way that denial of Nestorianism can lead to the error of Monophysitism (as historically happened) if argued without care. How an error is denied can often be just as critical as the denial itself.

Also, in the interest of fairness:
If the Idea of Original Sin includes mortal death then I believe the Theotokos was subject to it. But a lot of Roman Catholics believe her body was assumed into heaven before she gave her last breath. So that would even negate the corruption of the human form. = /
This is an example of the same problem of denial of error leading to error. The very same document that says Mary was conceived Immaculately also says she died. So does unanimous Tradition. Yet some Latins, in the interest of defending the doctrine, deny that Mary died. :rolleyes:

Peace and God bless!
 
Dear brother Ghosty,

Your whole last post was a great appeal to just plain old common sense.👍
My main concern is really a), because the arguments by which the Immaculate Conception is denied can lead to serious errors and divergence from Tradition, much in the way that denial of Nestorianism can lead to the error of Monophysitism (as historically happened) if argued without care. How an error is denied can often be just as critical as the denial itself.
Case in point - Interesting thing about St. Maximovitch’s rhetoric. EO apparently claim that the economy of salvation is effected through synergy - Grace and cooperation with it. Yet, for some unfathomable reason, when Catholics say that Mary received Grace from the moment of her conception, EO become Protestant in their thinking - all of a sudden, the Grace Mary received has been transformed to irresistable Grace in the Orthodox mind, whereby her free will was lost, and she was no longer able to sin.:confused:

To repeat, great post, brother Ghosty.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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