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JulianN
Guest
How exactly is addressing the root causes of poverty antithetical to the teachings of the Church?
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godisgood77
Guest
? … what about that bothers you?
FWIW - this isn’t leftist talk, but instead Church teaching … you should read the Chuch’s social teaching. I recommend starting with Rerum Novarum
FWIW - this isn’t leftist talk, but instead Church teaching … you should read the Chuch’s social teaching. I recommend starting with Rerum Novarum
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twf
Guest
You better be 100% certain on that point and ready to defend your position before the Dread Judgment Seat. One of Christ’s strongest and most consistent commands throughout the Gospels is “help and be with the poor.” Again and again and again.
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twf
Guest
Yeah, here at CAF many well meaning but mislead Catholics seem to honestly think Catholic social teaching = the US Republican platform.
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commenter
Guest
If someone chooses to give, fine. But no more collections in parishes, no more promotion by diocese.
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commenter
Guest
If there was an annual collection for the Republican platform in parishes, I would ask that this, too, be disconnected. But if individuals want to support that, or Cchd, fine.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
When you get to be bishop of your diocese you can make that decision if you wish.LeafByNiggle:
If someone chooses to give, fine. But no more collections in parishes, no more promotion by diocese.
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JulianN
Guest
No more collections for an official initiative of the USCCB??
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commenter
Guest
No, rather each official iniative have a sunset provision.
When Cchd started, community organizing was almost unheard if, outside a few big cities.
Today CO is funded or staffed, in many ways: by billionaires, by government, by unions, by universities, by the United Way, by many source of support.
I’m not saying this is bad. I’m just saying the usccb should take into account changes. There are other challenges now, unforeseen in 1969.
Right now the Cchd has a powerful political lobby within the conference and in local Dioceses. If any bishop tries to reduce or redirect them, they trigger a wave of mail and anti bishop coverage from the media. Suddenly the bishop gets labelled as a right winger, indifferent to the poor. They time this so as to cut into the collection for Catholic Charities.
Most bishops feel they don’t have time to stand up this pressure now. So they let it slide.
When Cchd started, community organizing was almost unheard if, outside a few big cities.
Today CO is funded or staffed, in many ways: by billionaires, by government, by unions, by universities, by the United Way, by many source of support.
I’m not saying this is bad. I’m just saying the usccb should take into account changes. There are other challenges now, unforeseen in 1969.
Right now the Cchd has a powerful political lobby within the conference and in local Dioceses. If any bishop tries to reduce or redirect them, they trigger a wave of mail and anti bishop coverage from the media. Suddenly the bishop gets labelled as a right winger, indifferent to the poor. They time this so as to cut into the collection for Catholic Charities.
Most bishops feel they don’t have time to stand up this pressure now. So they let it slide.
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JMMJ
Guest
Do you know that I don’t remember ever reading anywhere that Jesus spoke about continental poverty, or different kinds of poverty when it comes to looking after the poor? I could be completely wrong, but I really just don’t remember reading that
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Loud-living-dogma
Guest
Help the poor, yes.
But this leftist jargon - - what Bible is this from?
“4) Institutional Change – CCHD’s mission “is to address the root causes of poverty in the U.S.” In Catholic Social Teaching, the causes of poverty are understood to be an aspect of “social sin” rooted in our social and economic structures and institutions. In their economics pastoral, the bishops of the United States describe “A New American Experiment” that calls for "an imaginative vision of the future that can help shape economic arrangements in creative new ways.” (295) This will require alternative economic structures that will “expand economic participation, broaden the sharing of economic power, and make economic decisions more accountable to the common good.” (297)
In addition to just wages, CCHD seeks a just balance of individual- and community-held assets. In Rerum Novarum this vision was described in the following way: “If working people can be encouraged to look forward to obtaining a share of the land, the consequence will be that the gulf between vast wealth and sheer poverty will be bridged over, and the respective classes will be brought nearer to each other.” (47) Much more recently in 1963, Pope John XXIII wrote in Pacem in Terris , “The right of private property is an effective means for safeguarding the dignity of the human person and for the exercise of responsibility in all fields; it strengthens and gives serenity to family life, thereby increasing the peace and prosperity.”
http://www.usccb.org/about/catholic...cchd-basic-principles-of-catholic-mission.cfm
Seriously - - can someone break that down? What social and economic structures and institutions specifically are the root causes of poverty?
Let’s look at wikipedia for some basic info:
But this leftist jargon - - what Bible is this from?
“4) Institutional Change – CCHD’s mission “is to address the root causes of poverty in the U.S.” In Catholic Social Teaching, the causes of poverty are understood to be an aspect of “social sin” rooted in our social and economic structures and institutions. In their economics pastoral, the bishops of the United States describe “A New American Experiment” that calls for "an imaginative vision of the future that can help shape economic arrangements in creative new ways.” (295) This will require alternative economic structures that will “expand economic participation, broaden the sharing of economic power, and make economic decisions more accountable to the common good.” (297)
In addition to just wages, CCHD seeks a just balance of individual- and community-held assets. In Rerum Novarum this vision was described in the following way: “If working people can be encouraged to look forward to obtaining a share of the land, the consequence will be that the gulf between vast wealth and sheer poverty will be bridged over, and the respective classes will be brought nearer to each other.” (47) Much more recently in 1963, Pope John XXIII wrote in Pacem in Terris , “The right of private property is an effective means for safeguarding the dignity of the human person and for the exercise of responsibility in all fields; it strengthens and gives serenity to family life, thereby increasing the peace and prosperity.”
http://www.usccb.org/about/catholic...cchd-basic-principles-of-catholic-mission.cfm
Seriously - - can someone break that down? What social and economic structures and institutions specifically are the root causes of poverty?
Let’s look at wikipedia for some basic info:
So, is the USCCB saying that a lack of education, high divorce rate, and the culture of poverty itself are the root causes of poverty in the US? What exactly are the bishops saying are the root causes of poverty? Presumably not drought, rainfall, or the lack thereof? What social structures?
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
I watched Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing when it first came out. I do not remember all the details but I do remember Father Mitch Pacwa being in the documentary and much of the documentary to do with Saul Alynski and “community organizing” to help the poor. In other words, making sure people are kept in their proper places in society. Saul Alynksi said that after he died and in hell he would still be organizing people in to groups.
When Father Pacwa realized what was happening behind the scenes he got out.
I am very cautious with large organizations that ask for money to help the poor. Some organizations (even Catholic ones) help the poor by providing artificial contraception that goes against Church teaching and it has been reported in some places that the CCHD themselves have given to organizations that are pro-abortion and pro-contraceptive. Both of which go against Church teaching.
I would suggest any faithful Catholic who is considering giving to campaigns that “are helping the poor” be sure of to whom they are giving.
There are many ways to give. Part of Catholic social teaching also says we are to work at the smaller level, our own small communities and parishes.
When Father Pacwa realized what was happening behind the scenes he got out.
I am very cautious with large organizations that ask for money to help the poor. Some organizations (even Catholic ones) help the poor by providing artificial contraception that goes against Church teaching and it has been reported in some places that the CCHD themselves have given to organizations that are pro-abortion and pro-contraceptive. Both of which go against Church teaching.
I would suggest any faithful Catholic who is considering giving to campaigns that “are helping the poor” be sure of to whom they are giving.
There are many ways to give. Part of Catholic social teaching also says we are to work at the smaller level, our own small communities and parishes.
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Ender
Guest
The dispute has never been about whether to help the poor; it has always been about what is the best way to help them. When the CCHD comes out with a list of targets and objectives it isn’t just saying “help the poor”, it is saying “help the poor by implementing these policies.” That is a political statement, not a moral one, and very much outside their competence. That is what people are - justifiably - upset with.
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ChristMyLife
Guest
Aka far right propaganda.
LSN is equally as reliable as Westboro Baptist or Christadelphians or any other extremist group.
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ChristMyLife
Guest
What an ignorant thing to say.
Yo clearly speak out of total ignorance and not malice however, so I’ll leave it at that.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
I think that comment is a little extreme. You can be a conservative Catholic on the right and not be in the same category as Westboro. There is nothing wrong with being a conservative Catholic on the right.
The documentary A Wolfe in Sheep’s Clothing was aired on EWTN several years ago and many times since. Father Mitch Pacwa was in the documentary. In his early years as a priest in Chicago he participated with Saul Alinksy politics until he realized the corruption behind it and got out, but not before he got beat up in an alley. I can’t remember for sure but I think the person with him was either beat up much worse or killed. It is a very good documentary on community organizing and what is wrong with it.
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Peeps
Guest
I think that some of us suspect that evil is being practiced by organizations that we should be able to trust, but we lack the techie knowledge to be able to find proof.
Or even if we have the technical and investigative skills, we lack the time to spend online or on the phone or in person to do the research and find articles by trustworthy people, or other in-person evidence of wrongful practices by various groups.
So we come to online sites like this (CAF) with the hope that others who are more tech-savvy or politically-connected than we are will come forward with that evidence and give us good reason, not just rumors and conspiracy theories, that will change the way we give our offerings, volunteer our time, and pray our prayers.
And I’m pretty certain people aren’t simply trying to rabble-rouse or calumniate our Catholic leaders and organizations. It is right and just for us to desire and seek out the truth before foolishly giving our money, time, and hearts to a project that may be directly opposed to Christianity or dangerous to the United States of America.
Also, we have to always keep in mind that non-Catholic Christians (I was Evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life and speak from personal knowledge) are appalled and repelled by Catholic support of various organizations and policies that seem to be in opposition to traditional values and Christian economic principles of subsidiarity, especially those policies that validate sinful acts like abortion and non-celibate homosexual activity. This hurts the Catholic Church witness and impedes unification of Christians under the Church that Jesus founded.
If CAF members can post articles or present evidence that the bishops are or are not involved with questionable agencies, then that knowledge will be a help to all of us.
And when it comes to helping the poor–we have to be careful that our actions and policies truly do help them rather than creating situations that make their poverty even more entrenched and keep them enslaved rather than empowered to raise themselves out of poverty.
Or even if we have the technical and investigative skills, we lack the time to spend online or on the phone or in person to do the research and find articles by trustworthy people, or other in-person evidence of wrongful practices by various groups.
So we come to online sites like this (CAF) with the hope that others who are more tech-savvy or politically-connected than we are will come forward with that evidence and give us good reason, not just rumors and conspiracy theories, that will change the way we give our offerings, volunteer our time, and pray our prayers.
And I’m pretty certain people aren’t simply trying to rabble-rouse or calumniate our Catholic leaders and organizations. It is right and just for us to desire and seek out the truth before foolishly giving our money, time, and hearts to a project that may be directly opposed to Christianity or dangerous to the United States of America.
Also, we have to always keep in mind that non-Catholic Christians (I was Evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life and speak from personal knowledge) are appalled and repelled by Catholic support of various organizations and policies that seem to be in opposition to traditional values and Christian economic principles of subsidiarity, especially those policies that validate sinful acts like abortion and non-celibate homosexual activity. This hurts the Catholic Church witness and impedes unification of Christians under the Church that Jesus founded.
If CAF members can post articles or present evidence that the bishops are or are not involved with questionable agencies, then that knowledge will be a help to all of us.
And when it comes to helping the poor–we have to be careful that our actions and policies truly do help them rather than creating situations that make their poverty even more entrenched and keep them enslaved rather than empowered to raise themselves out of poverty.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
I have not seen any of that evidence here in this thread. What I have seen is rumor and speculation, that I’m afraid people will use to confirm their own personal opinions. Asking anonymous posters in this forum or any other such forum is more likely to serve as confirmation bias than to reveal trustworthy information.
That is your opinion that the CHD recipients are supporting abortion and homosexuality. I think the bishops would disagree with you. In those instances where it has been discovered that a recipient was supporting such values, the support from the CHD was ended. I suspect that some people don’t like programs that help the underprivileged form communities where they might gain some political power, and that is the real motive for the opposition to the CHD. But that is just my opinion.
The onus is on those who object to the CHD to post articles or present evidence that the bishops are involved with unworthy agencies. The default assumption should be to trust our bishops over any group of anonymous forum posters.
I don’t know of any CHD program that has the slightest chance of doing that.
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Loud-living-dogma
Guest
Leaf - - you seem to be sympathetic to this style of talk.
Can you give us an example, or explanation, of what the bishops mean by the following: the causes of poverty are understood to be an aspect of “social sin” rooted in our social and economic structures and institutions. In their economics pastoral, the bishops of the United States describe “A New American Experiment” that calls for "an imaginative vision of the future that can help shape economic arrangements in creative new ways. ” (295) This will require alternative economic structures …"
Can you give us an example, or explanation, of what the bishops mean by the following: the causes of poverty are understood to be an aspect of “social sin” rooted in our social and economic structures and institutions. In their economics pastoral, the bishops of the United States describe “A New American Experiment” that calls for "an imaginative vision of the future that can help shape economic arrangements in creative new ways. ” (295) This will require alternative economic structures …"
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commenter
Guest
When the Cchd was started, it was likely envisioned that it would be seed money, initiating activity where there wasn’t any, unique informal organizations accountable only to the powerless poor, with maybe a little guidance from Cchd.
In 2019, most Cchd grants go to not for profit agencies that are well established. They employ career social workers, who generally don’t live in the area.
The agencies in my diocese get most of their funds from government, the United Way, large corporations, and they also get a supplemental grant from Cchd. They are accountable to their major funders.
I’m not saying they are “bad”, just that these agencies would go on even if they lost Cchd funding, and anyway there are other similar agencies a few blocks away.
It’s often the agencies with professional grant writers that get the grants from Cchd, and other funders
In 2019, most Cchd grants go to not for profit agencies that are well established. They employ career social workers, who generally don’t live in the area.
The agencies in my diocese get most of their funds from government, the United Way, large corporations, and they also get a supplemental grant from Cchd. They are accountable to their major funders.
I’m not saying they are “bad”, just that these agencies would go on even if they lost Cchd funding, and anyway there are other similar agencies a few blocks away.
It’s often the agencies with professional grant writers that get the grants from Cchd, and other funders
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