Concern over the new Missal translation

[ProVobis]

The problem with calling it a higher form of language is that it isn’t. Have you actually read some of the prayers that will be in the missal? There was one sentence that was something like 48 or 68 words long (I was trying to look it up but I can’t find it) It was impossible to diagram, because it was so nonsensical. That is not a higher language, that isn’t even good grammar. Its a bunch of run on sentences with commas in between.

This is almost exactly what the situation was like trying to apply literal translations back in 1965 with the Old Mass. It just didn’t catch on.

And where did all these expert translators suddenly come from? Very few have studied Latin in the last 40 years, including seminarians. Baffling to say the least.

Call me a liberal if you wish but, while attending both the EF and OF, I prefer the status quo. And I believe most, if not all, of my fellow worshippers at the OF prefer the current prayers and responses. And if I want to be true to the source, I’ll attend and trust the source.

 

[benedictgal]

This is almost exactly what the situation was like trying to apply literal translations back in 1965 with the Old Mass. It just didn’t catch on.

And where did all these expert translators suddenly come from? Very few have studied Latin in the last 40 years, including seminarians. Baffling to say the least.

Call me a liberal if you wish but, while attending both the EF and OF, I prefer the status quo. And I believe most, if not all, of my fellow worshippers at the OF prefer the current prayers and responses. And if I want to be true to the source, I’ll attend and trust the source.

While your are certainly entitled to your opinion, we must bear in mind that the Holy See found some serious faults with this translation. As I said in a previous post, it took a non-native English speaking prefect of the CDWDS to point out the major flaws.

Unfortunately, when the original ICEL set out to translate the Roman Missal, they took it more along the lines of what they thought it should say, rather than what the prayers really say. When ICEL submitted to the Holy See its new translation of the Rite of Ordination, Jorge Cardinal Medina and his staff read through the document and determined some major problems. Subsquently, the recognitio for the new translation was denied. This also lead to a re-examination of ICEL’s work and the promulgation of Liturgiam Authenticam by the late Pope John Paul II.

 

[FrDavid96]

This is almost exactly what the situation was like trying to apply literal translations back in 1965 with the Old Mass. It just didn’t catch on.

And where did all these expert translators suddenly come from? Very few have studied Latin in the last 40 years, including seminarians. Baffling to say the least.

Call me a liberal if you wish but, while attending both the EF and OF, I prefer the status quo. And I believe most, if not all, of my fellow worshippers at the OF prefer the current prayers and responses. And if I want to be true to the source, I’ll attend and trust the source.

One thing we have to remember here is that the congregation’s parts of the Mass are going to change very little. It’s only a handful of words that are changing.

As for the priest’s parts, yes there will be more changes, but it won’t be as drastic as many people would like us to think.

It’s not going to be as big a deal as many (on both sides, or somethere in the middle) think it will.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Call me a liberal if you wish but, while attending both the EF and OF, I prefer the status quo. And I believe most, if not all, of my fellow worshippers at the OF prefer the current prayers and responses.

*Most, if not all, of *[our] *fellow worshippers *know nothing other than the current prayers and responses – How can that lead to a meaningful expression of preference?

:twocents:
tee

 

[Brendan]

And where did all these expert translators suddenly come from? Very few have studied Latin in the last 40 years, including seminarians. Baffling to say the least. .

It doesn’t take much of an expert to see something is wrong with our current translation.

My son is a 6th grader who is taking Latin. He has been pointing out things that are mistranslated in our current missal.

There are the simple things like only one “My fault” in place of “mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa” or the “also with you”\spirit thing, and “Credo” being first person singluar

It was kind of funny when he looked at the Creed and saw . “Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris, miserere nobis.” That means “You are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us”. What we say in English is “You are seated at the right hand of the Father, hear our prayer”. Not even close!!

At that point, he tossed the missal on the table, shook his head and said " If I turned in work like that, I’d get an ‘F’"

The interesting thing is, he’s be right. Our current missal is “F” quality work.

 

[PacoG]

I don’t remember the word “consubstantial” but there are a lot of things I’ve managed to forget in 40 years.

This is what I found in the side by side St. Joseph Sunday Missal:

P: I believe in one God.

S: The Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.
And I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the Only-begotten Son of God.
Born of the Father before all ages.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God.
Begotten, not made,
of one substance with the Father.
By Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven.
And He became Flesh by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary:
and was made man.
He was also crucified for us,
suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried.
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.
And of His kingdom there will be no end.
And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life,
Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Who together with the Father and Son is adored and glorified,
and Who spoke through the prophets.
And One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
And I await the resurrection of the dead.
And the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[ProVobis]

One thing we have to remember here is that the congregation’s parts of the Mass are going to change very little. It’s only a handful of words that are changing.

More than “very little.” The congregation responds “And also with you” to other than “The Lord be with you.” Personally I don’t mind the changes, although I wish they’d have more Latin in the Mass, but be prepared to hear a whole bunch of mixed responses coming from the congregation. I know we still have a problem with the Prayer to St. Michael prayer prior to our noon Mass. Tough to pray when you’re trying to figure out or remember the exact prayer.

Poor old-timers who like the status quo. You guys win again and can gloat about it, I guess.

But you know what happened at the Tower of Babel, don’t you?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel

 

[ProVobis]

Our current missal is “F” quality work.

The 1969 Mass as was promulgated in Latin was an A+++.

 

[benedictgal]

More than “very little.” The congregation responds “And also with you” to other than “The Lord be with you.” Personally I don’t mind the changes, although I wish they’d have more Latin in the Mass, but be prepared to hear a whole bunch of mixed responses coming from the congregation. I know we still have a problem with the Prayer to St. Michael prayer prior to our noon Mass. Tough to pray when you’re trying to figure out or remember the exact prayer.

Poor old-timers who like the status quo. You guys win again and can gloat about it, I guess.

Excuse me, but, the status quo was Latin for nearly close to two millenia. It’s not that anyone is gloating. The fact remains that these translations will bring us in compliance with Liturgiam Authenticam. The Holy See recognized that serious errors were made with the ICEL 1973 version and the new translation corrects these glaring problems. It is not gloating, especially if we are in support of what the Holy See has mandated.

 

[ProVobis]

From Genesis 11:1-9 (King James Version):

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children built. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Enough said.

 

[mjroth5]

I hope it changes “for all” to the original “for many.” In Europe only Portugal and Poland say this do to then-Cardinal Wojtyla (John Paul II). It is sad to see the ICEL putting out a Missal with so many errors. But is this only for the USA?

 

[benedictgal]

I hope it changes “for all” to the original “for many.” In Europe only Portugal and Poland say this do to then-Cardinal Wojtyla (John Paul II). It is sad to see the ICEL putting out a Missal with so many errors. But is this only for the USA?

Pro multis, for many, has been restored.

 

[benedictgal]

Benedictgal, once again, you haven’t addressed anything I said.

Just because “with your spirit” is being used in other languages, does not mean my point is moot.

How do you know I wasn’t at the conference? You don’t. In fact, this point was addressed there, AND the panel AGREED WITH ME, as well as having discussions/evals with me after the conference was over, over a meal.

My point still remains, there is bad grammar. Run on sentences with over 50 words is not a “higher form” of language as attributed earlier.

Okay, please give us some concrete examples of the bad sentences, agapewolf. Until you have concrete evidence to back up your assertions, your point is moot, as I see it.

In the end, it does not matter whether or not the panel agrees with you. The ultimate authority is that whatever is used agrees with what is mandated by Liturgiam Authentcam.

 

[ChadS]

I hope it changes “for all” to the original “for many.” In Europe only Portugal and Poland say this do to then-Cardinal Wojtyla (John Paul II). It is sad to see the ICEL putting out a Missal with so many errors. But is this only for the USA?

I may be mistaken but I believe the new translation is for the entire English speaking world.

ChadS

 

[FrDavid96]

More than “very little.” The congregation responds “And also with you” to other than “The Lord be with you.” Personally I don’t mind the changes, although I wish they’d have more Latin in the Mass, but be prepared to hear a whole bunch of mixed responses coming from the congregation. I know we still have a problem with the Prayer to St. Michael prayer prior to our noon Mass. Tough to pray when you’re trying to figure out or remember the exact prayer.

Poor old-timers who like the status quo. You guys win again and can gloat about it, I guess.

But you know what happened at the Tower of Babel, don’t you?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel

“And with your spirit” is 4 words.

How is that “more than ‘very little’”?

 

[ProVobis]

*Most, if not all, of *[our] *fellow worshippers *know nothing other than the current prayers and responses – How can that lead to a meaningful expression of preference?

:twocents:
tee

You’re probably right. Someone can recite nonsense phrases or replace certain words with his own words; just as long as he can keep up with the standard cadences, probably very few will notice. I’ve heard it done during the Pledge of Allegiance, couldn’t help but laugh.

 

[agapewolf]

Okay, please give us some concrete examples of the bad sentences, agapewolf. Until you have concrete evidence to back up your assertions, your point is moot, as I see it.

In the end, it does not matter whether or not the panel agrees with you. The ultimate authority is that whatever is used agrees with what is mandated by Liturgiam Authentcam.

I can’t find it, as I said. You want to doubt that these long sentences exist, fine. I don’t care. You will see when you hear them with the new mass. Bad grammar everywhere. Hard to follow sentences. Its textbook fact. It exists, whether I’m able to quote the sentences here or not…I don’t care to “win” an argument, its what exists. The evidence is there, I’m just not able to get at it at the present time.

YOU were the one that told me I should have been at the conference, and YOU were using that as a backup to your point. I am saying that it does NOT backup your point, I am saying that it could lead to confusion, regardless of it being used in other languages. and I guess I have to say it yet AGAIN…I’m not arguing against the changes, and I submit to the authority of the church, so your admonishment is not necessary.

 

[ProVobis]

Bad grammar everywhere. Hard to follow sentences. Its textbook fact. It exists, whether I’m able to quote the sentences here or not…

Not to worry. The Vatican should be releasing the New Ecclesiastical English Phrase Dictionary which will replace the Vatican II Simplified English Dictionary. Makes for jobs at least.

Just kidding.

 

[tee_eff_em]

This is so difficult – I hope it will not be perceived as *ad hominem *because that is not my intent – I hope instead that I am being thick.

Are you being ironic, and going over my head here?

Bad grammar everywhere. Hard to follow sentences. Its textbook fact.

Three sentences, no verb.


tee

 

[agapewolf]

This is so difficult – I hope it will not be perceived as *ad hominem *because that is not my intent – I hope instead that I am being thick.

Are you being ironic, and going over my head here?

Three sentences, no verb.


tee

Why don’t you look back through the thread to see what I am referring to… You state that you are being sincere, but its kind of hard to believe… really? I mean, really? Do you get on everyone for the bad grammar in their posts?

Someone said that its going to be a higher form of language. I said, Nope. I explained it pretty well, and I’m tired of having to repeat myself.

I should think that the standards of the language used in the missal should be higher than what is expected on a quick reply on a forum where full sentences are generally not expected, many acronyms and abbrevations are used for the sake of time in typing, and the point is communicated anyway.