That is exactly my concern, I hope my religion doesn’t claim that those in eternal happiness will get to see those in eternal damnation as a way to better enjoy their eternal happiness. As has been said in the previous posts, the Supplement wasn’t put together by St. Thomas.
Whatever, Roy.
In terms of space, there is no preferred reference frame. General relativity (given a standard cosmology) allows for any point to be considered the center of the universe. Whatever you prefer to be the center (and maybe for good spiritual or other reasons) can be defined as the center.
I don’t think it’s off-topic, since the question is about Saint Thomas’ thought on hell, and also on the glory of the blessed. He even uses these quotes to back up what he’s saying. I’m not sure how their punishment is less than everlasting, since Our Lord says “*their *worm dieth not.”
I cannot believe that hell is necessarily eternal. I think there’s hope, even for the Devil and his Angels (however unlikely it is they would accept such an offer). The fire is eternal, and those who are in it may eternally be there, the punishment may be everlasting, but people don’t need to be always exposed to it.
I think he was wrong. But I wouldn’t say his position is “incompatible with valid Christianity,” and I’m not sure you can make that argument stick unless you’re willing to say that the death penalty as whole is incompatible with valid Christianity.
I don’t think St. Thomas sat around worrying about the compatibility of his views with democracy! Are you of the opinion that democracy is an eternal moral truth of some kind?
This is one of those odd non sequiturs into which modern people fall. Medieval people knew just as well as we do that human bodies do not naturally float upward. They had a mistaken explanation of why this was true, based on Aristotle, just as they had a mistaken explanation of the phenomenon that the sun and the earth change their relative position. For much of the Middle Ages, Christian theologians actually rejected belief in witches as superstitious, although they still thought that people who attempted to be witches were doing something very wicked. Anyway, the fact is that Aquinas was well aware of natural causes. He believed that God usually acts through such causes, but sometimes acts directly. Nothing about modern scientific discoveries, as far as I can tell, makes that position obsolete.
I’m curious, since you’re Episcopalian (if you don’t mind sharing): what is your view on the hell question?
Areopagite, I see what you’re saying about it being justice that they suffer and those in heaven would be viewing justice when they look at those in hell. My concern is this, just because it might be justice for a mass murderer to get the electric chair doesn’t mean that I want to see him cook. Also, I would think somebody is strange if they were a law abiding citizen and wanted to go see a criminal get the chair for their own enjoyment. This same analogy still works by replacing people getting the chair and people doing time in prison. (Just in case someone objects to the death penalty) What do you think?
So the Catholic view is a pagan idea? Compatible with certain pagan ideas, maybe; a pagan idea, certainly not. Do you understand that distinction? The God we worship is not insulted by people sincerely believing what they believe He has revealed. If you worship the same God, you may be mistaken about Him. Right?
Do you have a reference on the Aquinas passage handy? As for comparing apples and oranges (penal codes in Europe circa 1250 vs. those of America circa 1900), usually not a good idea. Also, America has it’s own dirty laundry list (witches, slavery, religious intolerance), as I’m sure you’re aware.
It follows inevitably…? Of course you now have a million babies murdered EVERY YEAR in the good old US of A, so I’m not sure that you have anything to brag about here. Non-religious regimes have been far more murderous, in any case, so I think you need to be a little more hesitant to cite two facts and then jump to big conclusions.
What point are you trying to make in mentioning Muslim women as heads of states?
I could see Hitchens doing it. But Nietzsche? I thought he liked that kind of stuff (even though I think everyone is misinterpreting this part).
I believe Nietzsche’s reference was to Tertullian’s De spectaculis, and not Aquinas (as far as I know).
I suppose the reason for this is that the emotional horror at the sight would overwhelm you (and most people … and me), and perhaps even distract you from seeing the goodness of the justice being done. However, such emotional discomfort will not be a factor of a person in heaven, whose emotions are perfectly under his control and not a stumbling block for seeing the truth of all things.
Well, correct me if I’m wrong, there have been a lot of people who want to see such things, especially if such a criminal wronged you or your loved ones in some way. Now, oftentimes, such a person may have disordered reasons why they want to see an execution, such as sadism (i.e. taking pleasure in the person’s pain itself and not the justice). But certainly, I would say, that lynch mobs are a testament to the fact that many people want to see people brought to justice (or what they think is justice … because, of course, some lynch mobs have been misguided).
I don’t know. There have been movies which make the depiction of a bad guys going to jail a very joyful sight. Even when it arouses pity in you (which is an emotion), there is something joyful about it … especially if they really deserve it. No?
It is usually brought up out of context during a general objection that religion is the root of evil. But yeah, you might give the whole article a read and decide for yourself whether what Thomas (or at least what was attributed to Thomas) says makes sense.
I listen to a wide variety of music, but when it comes to punk, I like a lot of Pennywise and Rancid.
