Concernig saints

[Kjallak]

Who are you to dispute God’s way of informing the Catholic Church of those whom He wishes it be known they are in heaven? Who are you to say that the Catholic Church does not receive inspiration?

Why do you think Catholics will listen to your opinions (picked up from the usual anti-Catholic sources, I suspect) as anything other than the standard “everything about the Catholic Church is wrong” blather?

My right? What right do I need? You aren’t God’s Church, don’t deceive yourselves… God’s Church is small and rare in this world from what I’ve seen, and unfortunately, is not made up of millions of members as the Catholic Church is…

I could also ask you a similar question though… what right do YOU have to claim you are God’s Church? What right do YOU have to claim God inspires you? We could ask these empty questions without end every single day of our life and never get anywhere, our beliefs tell us to be strong in our faith, and know our faith should FIRST be based on the Bible rather than any Church… If we don’t use the Bible first how will we know what is right? God will not come to us for just following the Church’s teachings… again, I don’t doubt the majority of Catholics read the Bible… but if you read the Bible FIRST you can come to acknowledge the Holy Spirit’s truth, he will come to you in secret and show you His ways of truth, and you can then point out God’s True Church… if you come to a Church at first before reading the Bible they will encourage you to read the Bible, but you also become sympathetic to their views because they introduce you to their faith… and you believe that was right because you know no other truth, even if the truth is not present.

I get my arguments from the Bible, and if you say my sources are Anti-Catholic what are you trying to imply? I learned about the Catholic Church while in school, they were Catholics… are actual catholics as anti-catholic as the Bible is? It is what you imply.

 

[Kjallak]

Not a snarky question: Are you a native speaker of English?

What does this have to do with saints? I’m sorry if I may come across as confusing to you at points, but I usually write early in the morning and around the time I prepare for bed… which may have an effect on how accurately and effectively I get information across to others… I’m not always awake in this sense…

I am a native speaker of English, it was my first language, however I still learn as the days pass.

 

[VociMike]

My right? What right do I need?

Nobody asked you about your “right”. You’re either unintentionally or intentionally misreading what was written.

You aren’t God’s Church, don’t deceive yourselves… God’s Church is small and rare in this world from what I’ve seen, and unfortunately, is not made up of millions of members as the Catholic Church is…

Another opinion, based on - what?

I could also ask you a similar question though… what right do YOU have to claim you are God’s Church? What right do YOU have to claim God inspires you?

I don’t remember claiming I am the Catholic Church…

I get my arguments from the Bible, and if you say my sources are Anti-Catholic what are you trying to imply? I learned about the Catholic Church while in school, they were Catholics… are actual catholics as anti-catholic as the Bible is? It is what you imply.

You simply deceive yourself. You get your arguments from Protestant-originated traditions of men which sift and interpret the bible. If you really got your arguements untainted by these traditions, you would find important cases where the Catholic Church was right and the Protestant tradition was wrong. Care to share with us some of those cases?

 

[mercygate]

My right? What right do I need? You aren’t God’s Church, don’t deceive yourselves… God’s Church is small and rare in this world from what I’ve seen, and unfortunately, is not made up of millions of members as the Catholic Church is.

May we presume that you know that YOU are a member of this elite community? And that you can judge who is not?

I could also ask you a similar question though… what right do YOU have to claim you are God’s Church? What right do YOU have to claim God inspires you? We could ask these empty questions without end every single day of our life and never get anywhere, our beliefs tell us to be strong in our faith, and know our faith should FIRST be based on the Bible rather than any Church…

Although not the topic of this thread, there actually are solid answers to this question. Many of us are Converts who were driven to the conclusion that the Catholic Church IS the Church Christ promised to build on Peter.

If we don’t use the Bible first how will we know what is right?

Again, another thread. But since the Catholic Church gave us the Table of Contents of the New Testament, Catholics understand that the authority of Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church are inseparable.

God will not come to us for just following the Church’s teachings… again, I don’t doubt the majority of Catholics read the Bible… but if you read the Bible FIRST you can come to acknowledge the Holy Spirit’s truth, he will come to you in secret and show you His ways of truth, and you can then point out God’s True Church…

Again: many of us came to the Catholic Church out of Bible-based Protestant traditions. The Holy Spirit guided us to understand that the Bridegroom and His Bride are one flesh. And the Catholic Church has the historical, spiritual and doctrinal continuity all the way back to the Upper Room, and therefore MUST be THE Church, and MUST have the teaching authority he gave to the Apostles on the Mount of the Ascension.

if you come to a Church at first before reading the Bible they will encourage you to read the Bible, but you also become sympathetic to their views because they introduce you to their faith… and you believe that was right because you know no other truth, even if the truth is not present.

That cuts both ways, doesn’t it?

I get my arguments from the Bible, and if you say my sources are Anti-Catholic what are you trying to imply? I learned about the Catholic Church while in school, they were Catholics… are actual catholics as anti-catholic as the Bible is? It is what you imply.

This is confusing. But the arguments you mount here represent NOT “the Bible” but YOUR interpretation of the Bible.

Since Scripture was produced by the Church, for the Church, and was canonized by the Church, and since the only Church around at the time was the Catholic Church, it kind of limits the authority line. Many things in Scripture that Protestants claim are each individual Christian’s personal property, were actually spoken to or given to the eleven Apostles in trust for the greater Christian Community. Among these is the Great Commission and the promise that Jesus would send “another paraclete who will guide you into all the truth.” If your faith is not in accord with the Eleven (and their successors – the Bishops of the Apostolic Church), then you are just an idiopath doing your own thing, not His thing.

 

[mercygate]

What does this have to do with saints? I’m sorry if I may come across as confusing to you at points, but I usually write early in the morning and around the time I prepare for bed… which may have an effect on how accurately and effectively I get information across to others… I’m not always awake in this sense…

I am a native speaker of English, it was my first language, however I still learn as the days pass.

Thank you. As I said: not a snarky question but your writing (as you recognize) was not entirely clear. Here ya go, brother!

 

[Kjallak]

Nobody asked you about your “right”. You’re either unintentionally or intentionally misreading what was written.

Another opinion, based on nothing.

I don’t remember claiming I am the Catholic Church…

You simply deceive yourself. You get your arguments from Protestant-originated traditions of men which sift and interpret the bible. If you really got your arguements untainted by these traditions, you would find important cases where the Catholic Church was right and the Protestant tradition was wrong. Care to share with us some of those cases?

Again you accuse me of misinterpretation, where what I interpret is in perfect context with the other portions of the Bible… and using proper context is proper interpretation… Asking someone “Who are you to…” is in a sense asking what right they have to do something… how will you ever win an argument if you cannot stick to a single path?

My “opinion” again is within perfect context of the Bible… my signature points out an obvious fact(coming from the Bible)… the way to heaven is narrow and few will there be that find it… You have to be a true follower of Christ to form the Church and you have to be a true follower of Christ to earn salvation… They go hand in hand and therefore make the true Church of God small in number. Looking further into context of the Bible… we know God has a specific group of people he has chosen who will make it to heaven… he will make a calling to them (Romans 8:30, John 6:44)… and if they do not hear the calling… what are they? Again… some will be made to deceive others from God… the ravening wolves, we will know them by their fruits, which will be the fruits of the flesh (work for justification)…

 

[Hrvoje]

I’m sorry, I’m just going to reply on your post of works.

It would seem that your view presupposes faith in order so there can be works. That’s right. There has to be a response to grace by faith.
But if the faith is real, the fruits of the spirit must come after the call to faith. So, you basically have two options:

a) the faith is real and works must come from it - based on James. Therefore, is it not valid to say that it is not by faith alone that we are justified, but by faith which necessarily springs forth works? I. e. We are justified by faith, but not by faith alone. By alienating works from faith in a “faith alone” stand, you must necessarily go to option…

b) the faith is not real because it does not produce the fruit of the spirit you entitled as works - drawing this one from James. Therefore, “faith alone” can not justify you for it is a dead faith.
Works are not a bonus, but a necessary part of justification (Luke 6, 46).

Well, there it is.

God bless.

 

[Kjallak]

Nobody asked you about your “right”. You’re either unintentionally or intentionally misreading what was written.

Another opinion, based on - what?

I don’t remember claiming I am the Catholic Church…

You simply deceive yourself. You get your arguments from Protestant-originated traditions of men which sift and interpret the bible. If you really got your arguements untainted by these traditions, you would find important cases where the Catholic Church was right and the Protestant tradition was wrong. Care to share with us some of those cases?

I’m sorry I didn’t get to finish on my last post, I was cut off abruptly…

Let me assure you I did not mean only YOU when I said you, I meant Catholics as a whole. Catholics as a whole form the church as is taught by the Bible, the Church is supposed to be formed by its members which gather in Christ’s name.

Again I tell you, I do not follow traditions, I interpret for myself, so that I might know truths further than what any traditions teach… you know the saying… “Traditions make void the Word of God”… If we were meant to follow any tradition we wouldn’t need the Word because tradition would be our means to salvation… but we all know it isn’t… We need the Word of God to put us on the correct path to salvation… the Church will be unable to do that alone… just as it can’t choose saints on its opinions alone… a good life… sure, ok, but also choosing based on miracles performed after death is at any time a dangerous thing to falsely attribute to others for us humans.

 

[Kjallak]

I’m sorry, I’m just going to reply on your post of works.

It would seem that your view presupposes faith in order so there can be works. That’s right. There has to be a response to grace by faith.
But if the faith is real, the fruits of the spirit must come after the call to faith. So, you basically have two options:

a) the faith is real and works must come from it - based on James. Therefore, is it not valid to say that it is not by faith alone that we are justified, but by faith which necessarily springs forth works? I. e. We are justified by faith, but not by faith alone. By alienating works from faith in a “faith alone” stand, you must necessarily go to option…

b) the faith is not real because it does not produce the fruit of the spirit you entitled as works - drawing this one from James. Therefore, “faith alone” can not justify you for it is a dead faith.
Works are not a bonus, but a necessary part of justification (Luke 6, 46).

Well, there it is.

God bless.

Quite, quite… but you must understand further here…

By faith ALONE (Without works) we are justified in God’s Eyes… the fruits that come from that faith (From the Holy Spirit’s presence) do not justify you in God’s Eyes, he has already chosen you for your true faith (Where else would the fruits come from? Possibly by man’s works…) James said I will show you my faith BY my works… which was stated toward the others asking about it… he didn’t need the works to justify himself to God, just to men… which is why the Bible says… “You will know them by their fruits” True followers of Christ (those who are faithful to his teachings) will display the fruits of the Spirit.

(To go further into this… God doesn’t justify us based on His works, come now =P It’s simply faith… your faith must be out of love for God, not for the hopes of getting to heaven, not for the hopes of earning power on earth, just love.)

 

[Mintaka]

Calm down, folks.

I think people need to check the official definition of the word “saint”. Yes, all members of Christ’s Body are holy ones of God – ie, saints. That’s sense #1.

But there’s another sense, which is “those heroically virtuous, Christlike believers whom we know darned well are in Heaven with God”. We can’t say this of everyone, but there are some persons that everyone is sure about. From the earliest times, when St. Stephen was martyred, the people of the church discerned that he had gone straight to God. He was their hero, a model of how to live like Christ – and the Holy Spirit told them so.

Other martyrs were similarly acclaimed. Then people were inspired by those who had undergone suffering for the faith, but hadn’t actually died until years later. Soon, people grew to appreciate other forms of holiness as similarly heroic, and acclaimed them as holy ones. Clearly, this was something God meant to happen, since He made heroic virtue so famous, so often.

Canonization is just another way for the Church to channel the Holy Spirit’s inspiration. We test the spirit of thinking someone’s a heroically virtuous saint by investigating his life and by asking God for miracles by his intercession.

But the Church has never denied that Heaven is full of people who did not live with heroic virtue but were saved by the mercy of God – and the Church does not deny that those people are saints. Likewise, there are billions who have lived with heroic virtue but whose deeds and steadfastness are known only to God. There will be a lot of surprises. But anyway, anyone in Heaven bears a crown far more honorable than any honor we can give from on Earth.

But until the Last Judgment, when all will be revealed, we have the example of the “official” saints that the Holy Spirit has made known. They remind us that we can live in Christ as He lives in us, if we only follow Him to the full.

 

[mercygate]

I’m sorry I didn’t get to finish on my last post, I was cut off abruptly…

Let me assure you I did not mean only YOU when I said you, I meant Catholics as a whole. Catholics as a whole form the church as is taught by the Bible, the Church is supposed to be formed by its members which gather in Christ’s name.

Again I tell you, I do not follow traditions, I interpret for myself, so that I might know truths further than what any traditions teach… you know the saying… “Traditions make void the Word of God”… If we were meant to follow any tradition we wouldn’t need the Word because tradition would be our means to salvation… but we all know it isn’t… We need the Word of God to put us on the correct path to salvation… the Church will be unable to do that alone… just as it can’t choose saints on its opinions alone… a good life… sure, ok, but also choosing based on miracles performed after death is at any time a dangerous thing to falsely attribute to others for us humans.

Jesus does not say that traditions per se make void the word of God. He condemns those merely human traditions that replace the greater commandment (in this case, sequestering money as qorban and leaving one’s parents without support). Jesus Himself followed Traditions: he kept the feasts and fasts, he frequented the synaogue, for example. These traditions do not make void the word of God. These traditions do what Tradition is supposed to do: keep the word of God intact. Scripture itself is part of Catholic Tradition.

Why do you believe the Gospel of St. Matthew was written by Matthew? Nowhere in Scripture does it say anything about the author of that Gospel. The attribution to Matthew is a Catholic Tradition.