Concerning changes to the sacrament of marriage (communion for divorced and remarried)

[Vico]

We are having difficulty and are talking past one another, I think.
I am not referring to YOUR two documents, but to the one I initially posted in contrast with your #1 above …
chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350098?eng=y

… where it states that there is “possible recourse to a decision “in the internal forum” to receive communion by a divorced and remarried Catholic if the lack of recognition of the nullity of his previous marriage (because of a verdict held to be erroneous or because of the impossibility of proving its nullity in procedural form) were to contrast with his firm conviction of conscience that that marriage was objectively null.”

Contrast this with your link where he does not support pastoral solutions that stand in opposition to statement of the Magisterium.

There is vacillation between his two points of view, which give evidence of ambivalence, IMO. See my Post #63.

Could we please allow this to be worked out in the Synod?

Those are both in the same 1998 document from the CDF items 3 and 5.

 

[Sirach2]

I am striving to understand what is ambivalent. Could you identify the ambivalent statements in the two Cardinal Ratzinger / Pope Benedict XVI documents I find this this thread? which are:

1. 1998 CDF document by Cardinal Ratzinger
   Footnote 4 added later to CDF document above: meeting with clergy in the Diocese of Aosta, which took place 25 July 2005.

doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19980101_ratzinger-comm-divorced_en.html

O boy, I see now what the problem has been. The article I referenced from “Chiesa” unfortunately cherry-picked the parts they liked, and omitted those words that you are citing from Ratzinger’s original document. I had believed this was the full statement, and it created in my mind an ambivalence, since those particular portions of his statement were omitted. :banghead: That’s what biased reporting will get us.

I now understand that Ratzinger did point out JPII’s words from Veritatis Splendor, saying that the Pope “rejected so-called pastoral solutions which stand in opposition to the statements of the Magisterium.”

I stand with my original premise that there is vacillation from his original document. For earlier in Ratzinger’s document, and as Chiesa reported, he stated:

c. Admittedly, it cannot be excluded that mistakes occur in marriage cases. In some parts of the Church, well-functioning marriage tribunals still do not exist. Occasionally, such cases last an excessive amount of time. Once in a while they conclude with questionable decisions. Here it seems that the application of epikeia in the internal forum is not automatically excluded from the outset. This is implied in the 1994 letter of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in which it was stated that new canonical ways of demonstrating nullity should exclude “as far as possible” every divergence from the truth verifiable in the judicial process (cf. n. 9). Some theologians are of the opinion that the faithful ought to adhere strictly even in the internal forum to juridical decisions which they believe to be false. Others maintain that exceptions are possible here in the internal forum, because the juridical forum does not deal with norms of divine law, but rather with norms of ecclesiastical law. This question, however, demands further study and clarification.

Chiesa’s article, however, correctly noted Benedict’s personal opinion found in footnote 4 at the bottom of the original document from the CDF, added seven years later in 2005. This is what created ambivalence in my mind, for it contradicted his previous statement from JPII, citing his rejection of pastoral solutions.

[4] During the meeting with clergy in the Diocese of Aosta, which took place 25 July 2005, Pope Benedict XVI spoke of this difficult question: “ those who were married in the Church for the sake of tradition but were not truly believers, and who later find themselves in a new and invalid marriage and subsequently convert, discover faith and feel excluded from the Sacrament, are in a particularly painful situation. This really is a cause of great suffering and when I was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I invited various Bishops’ Conferences and experts to study this problem: a sacrament celebrated without faith. Whether, in fact, a moment of invalidity could be discovered here because the Sacrament was found to be lacking a fundamental dimension, I do not dare to say. I personally thought so, but from the discussions we had I realized that it is a highly complex problem and ought to be studied further. But given these people’s painful plight, it must be studied further.”

As he indicated, and with which I am in agreement, this “further study and clarification” needs to be undertaken during the Synod.

 

[OraLabora]

A little too late for that. Cardinal Kasper felt the need to state his opinions prior to the Synod and politicized it by accusing others of politicizing the issue. Also it looks like lay people will have an opportunity to be involved in the Synod. Not a good decision I agree but it is what it is.

And what is so terrible about hearing from laity who live with the situations being discussed with the Synod? If the bishops are to even consider some kind of pastoral solutions to this problem (and other family issues), perhaps if they directly hear about the suffering of those directly affected, it would help them.

The first word of the Rule of Saint Benedict is Listen… moreover the Rule says:

Whenever any important business has to be done
in the monastery,
let the Abbot call together the whole community
and state the matter to be acted upon.
Then, having heard the brethren’s advice,
let him turn the matter over in his own mind
and do what he shall judge to be most expedient.
The reason we have said that all should be called for counsel
is that the Lord often reveals to the younger what is best.

Let the brethren give their advice
with all the deference required by humility,
and not presume stubbornly to defend their opinions;
but let the decision rather depend on the Abbot’s judgment,
and all submit to whatever he shall decide for their welfare.

However, just as it is proper
for the disciples to obey their master,
so also it is his function
to dispose all things with prudence and justice.

Applying this to the current circumstance, why should the bishops not seek counsel from everyone? Even the most broken person still has his or her dignity and deserves to be heard, and perhaps indeed the Lord does speak through them. Perhaps the Holy Father would like to hear directly from the laity, rather than with clerical filters applied, such as happened in Canada where the majority of dioceses chose not to distribute the questionnaire on the family that the Holy Father requested last year. Clericalism at its worse… presumably the bishops of those dioceses feel they can speak for the laity.

I simply can’t understand the lack of faith of so many folks posting on this issue. Why the fear? Do we not believe the Promise that Jesus made to Peter when He handed him the keys? My Benedictine tradition is to be obedient to the Holy See, and assent to whatever decision is made, even if I personally disagree with it.

Again, I wish we could hear, on this thread, from the very people that are directly affected by this issue. Otherwise this is just a sterile theoretical debate among people who have neither the training, nor the authority, to decide on what’s best for the Church and the flock she is mandated to care for. Hint: that flock is every single human being, not just Catholics in good standing; Christ’s mission is universal. The Church is not an exclusive club. She has to tend to her immediate flock and keep them on the pasture, and she has to try to reach out to the stray sheep of the world (lapsed Catholics and non-Catholics) and draw them into the pasture. I think it helps to do so, by first meeting them where they are, and bringing them in to start them on a road to conversion. The world is messy, but we won’t even make a minor dent on that problem if we barricade the doors to keep out those who somehow aren’t in a state of grace.

 

[Sirach2]

Excellent!

 

[Deltadeliquent]

I think the fear is being generated by all the things that are going on around us.
Gay marriage, abortion, and other obvious sins are being taken these days, as just fine and dandy.
A church, even the Cathoilc Church is at least somewhat bent by the surroundings. Hence the synod in the first place.
The Anglicans have a church that looks and smells very much like our own. We have the same origins. But they allow anything to the point they they stand for nothing. Just like the secular culture that surrounds us.

The fear is that the Catholic Church will start to follow suit. It’s a natural reaction. Especially with all the biased media coverage, an unknown pope, and a few comments that already seem to indicate that standing firm is one of many options.

 

[Sirach2]

The fear is that the Catholic Church will start to follow suit. It’s a natural reaction.

Impossible, if you really believe Jesus’ words, “The gates of hell shall not prevail against her.” Trust, my friend, keep the faith.

 

[OraLabora]

I think the fear is being generated by all the things that are going on around us.
Gay marriage, abortion, and other obvious sins are being taken these days, as just fine and dandy.
A church, even the Cathoilc Church is at least somewhat bent by the surroundings. Hence the synod in the first place.
The Anglicans have a church that looks and smells very much like our own. We have the same origins. But they allow anything to the point they they stand for nothing. Just like the secular culture that surrounds us.

The fear is that the Catholic Church will start to follow suit. It’s a natural reaction. Especially with all the biased media coverage, an unknown pope, and a few comments that already seem to indicate that standing firm is one of many options.

The problem with the Anglicans, if I may dare speak for them, is that they lack authority and the Promise of the Keys made by Jesus (with apologies to my Anglican wife).

You say that the Catholic Church is bent by her surroundings. This has been true for 2000 years. Read St. Paul’s epistles:

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters,[f] insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.

(Romans 1)

Sounds familiar doesn’t it? Human nature hasn’t changed so much since then… and since then the Church has known persecution, the Dark Ages, the Reformation, and the list goes on.

So why worry about anything more than one’s own salvation? As Sirach2 says, keep the faith.

A promise made by Jesus cannot fail. It hasn’t failed in 2000 years. If it ever does fail, it would mean that the Bible isn’t a pillar of the Truth, and no amount of posturing about returning to a smaller, purer Church would be able to change that fact.

 

[Peebo]

I think the fear is being generated by all the things that are going on around us.
Gay marriage, abortion, and other obvious sins are being taken these days, as just fine and dandy.
A church, even the Cathoilc Church is at least somewhat bent by the surroundings. Hence the synod in the first place.
The Anglicans have a church that looks and smells very much like our own. We have the same origins. But they allow anything to the point they they stand for nothing. Just like the secular culture that surrounds us.

The fear is that the Catholic Church will start to follow suit. It’s a natural reaction. Especially with all the biased media coverage, an unknown pope, and a few comments that already seem to indicate that standing firm is one of many options.

The fear is that many Catholics seem to think they know better than the Holy Spirit who has guided the church of Jesus Christ for 2000 years and will continue to do so until the return of our Lord…whatever the outcome it will be through the guidance of the Holy Spirit…if you are not happy with the result either way…then you are free to leave the church as millions have already done so…to put it another way…stop whining and let the church do what it has always done…taught the truth about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[FRLBJ]

Dear New Catholic1,

The Pope may abandon the Faith, but we will not! We have the the Holy Eucharist and some priests who are true. Stay true and get a Catechism of St. Pius the X. Cardinal Burke recently recommended it as a sure guide for all.
The Synod will make suggestions, but it has been ‘fixed’ by Cardinal Kaspar to give Pope Francis the wrong suggestions on allowing unrepentant adulterers to receive Holy Communion and recognizing cohabiting as ‘married’ in the eyes of the Church.
Cardinal Kaspar showed me how little love he has for God when he was the bishop of our diocese Stuttgart-Rottenburg. I was pregnant with child no. 6 and went to Caritas( owned and run by the Diocese!!!) seeking some aid. The waiting room was filled with propaganda and materials from Planned Parenthood (Pro Familia-what a deceptive name) and the German government promoting abortion, contraception, morning after pill and perversion!!! I was so horrified. I picked it all up and threw it in a far way garbage can under a lot of other trash. This is the love and mercy that Cardinal Kaspar has for women, children and families! He does not care!!!
What Kardinal Kaspar does love is money! In Germany Catholics are leaving the Church in droves by officially filling out a form with the government that they are no longer Catholic, so that the church tax won’t be taken out of their paycheck. The church tax is withheld just like income tax and state taxes are here, based on your income. The Catholic Church is also the second largest employer in Germany!!!
So Cardinal Kaspar and the German bishops wish to entice the adulterers back to the Church ( and increase revenues) by officially promising them to be able to receive Holy Communion. Actually the practice is already allowed in almost every parish with the blessing of the bishops of Germany. I saw statements in the late 1990s in parish bulletins to that effect- welcoming all the non-Catholic spouses and adulterers to the Sacraments, not just to participate in socializing or attend Holy Mass.

When Bishop Kaspar was elevated by Pope John Paul II, we knew that the Pope had made a huge mistake and were very disappointed and dismayed. Pray for the confused and weak Catholics who will be tempted to follow the false ways of Kardinal Kaspar and of Pope Francis, if he approves of these changes. We can have a heretic Pope you know. I would actually rather have a Pope Alexander the VI who would be honest about his aims to gain power, pleasure and money.
Pray fervently for enlightenment for Pope Francis about the wolves-in-shepherds clothing that the Pope wants to have run the Synod. Prayer can move mountains!

 

[Deltadeliquent]

I’m not whining.
Someone wanted to know what all the worry was about because the Church will always speak the Truth.
I’m pointing out that the Church is comprised of sinners and other churches, who think they will always speak the truth, have gone in other directions. And that our society is going a bit crazy with the tolerance thing these days. And that is why we worry.

I thought I was answering someones question, but I see that I was opening myself up to criticism from those who do not bother to read posts. They already have an agenda, and will twist even words that agree with them. Blindness.

For the record, although I cannot take communion because of an irregular marriage, I am a card carrying Catholic and will not partake of the sacraments unless I am able to change that situation. I am not bitter, nor do I feel unwelcome. I’m happy to follow church teaching on this even if to my detriment.
I am hoping they do not change things except perhaps to make the admin around annulments simpler. If they don’t, I’ll jump through whatever hoops they put in the way. If there’s a hoop I can’t get through, I will suffer the consequences and hope for mercy from God.
I know some good Evangelical churches that you would feel right at home in.
Intellectual curiosity and honesty is one of the great treasures of the Catholic Church.

 

[Peebo]

I’m not whining.
Someone wanted to know what all the worry was about because the Church will always speak the Truth.
I’m pointing out that the Church is comprised of sinners and other churches, who think they will always speak the truth, have gone in other directions. And that our society is going a bit crazy with the tolerance thing these days. And that is why we worry.

I thought I was answering someones question, but I see that I was opening myself up to criticism from those who do not bother to read posts. They already have an agenda, and will twist even words that agree with them. Blindness.

For the record, although I cannot take communion because of an irregular marriage, I am a card carrying Catholic and will not partake of the sacraments unless I am able to change that situation. I am not bitter, nor do I feel unwelcome. I’m happy to follow church teaching on this even if to my detriment.
I am hoping they do not change things except perhaps to make the admin around annulments simpler. If they don’t, I’ll jump through whatever hoops they put in the way. If there’s a hoop I can’t get through, I will suffer the consequences and hope for mercy from God.
I know some good Evangelical churches that you would feel right at home in.
Intellectual curiosity and honesty is one of the great treasures of the Catholic Church.

I apologize…I wasn’t referring to you…I just used that quote to show how some in this post
seem to think they know what the church should and should not allow…as I said …the Holy Spirit will decide what is to be or not to be…I apologize once again

 

[Deltadeliquent]

Accepted. We’re good.
God bless.

 

[johnnyc176]

And what is so terrible about hearing from laity who live with the situations being discussed with the Synod?

Well first of all I was replying to this…

Originally Posted by Sirach2 View Post
Could we please allow this to be worked out in the Synod?

What I got from that is that Sirach2 felt we should not be giving our opinions because we are well…laity? Of course that didn’t stop him/her from offering opinion lol. So mentioning that the laity was in fact involved in the Synod I was in effect asking why we can not have differing opinions here on the forum.

As to hearing from laity who live with situations our example so far is from a married couple giving opinions on a situation (how the Church should accept homosexual couples) they are not living with.

 

[Deltadeliquent]

Accepted. We’re good.
God bless.

You touched a nerve in me. One thing I hate is those who presume the Cathoilc Church is all about handing down edicts to have power over the teeming masses. And that the Church is just a dictatorship and a killjoy.
Truth is, the Church is one of the most reasoned and logically formed bodies of thought out there. I’m proud that we don’t just believe because we are told to. Catholics are expected to practice some intellectual due diligence.

 

[FreeEver]

The fear is that many Catholics seem to think they know better than the Holy Spirit who has guided the church of Jesus Christ for 2000 years and will continue to do so until the return of our Lord…whatever the outcome it will be through the guidance of the Holy Spirit…if you are not happy with the result either way…then you are free to leave the church as millions have already done so…to put it another way…stop whining and let the church do what it has always done…taught the truth about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

How so true. Totally agree, we need to have confidence that the Holy Father and participating Church members will be directed by the Holy Spirit in making the right decisions.

Asking our Blessed Virgin Mother by way of the Rosary that the Synod will follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit will ensure success.

Peace to all and God Bless.

 

[FRLBJ]

Dear SirachII

Concerning annulments: A friend is fighting the annulment of her decades-long marriage with 12 children. Her ex-husband sought the annulment in order to marry a Mexican woman whom he picked up. The diocese declined to annul the marriage. Now the ex is appealing to the nearest archdiocese. Some of my friend witnesses have died, but hopefully she will stop the husband’s bamboozling of the marriage tribunal.
Apparently, my friend is the rare exception to the rubber stamp annulments that are being churned out. Pope John Paul was greatly concerned about the great number of annulments in the US and the West. He did not think it a good thing at all.

[edited]Jesus Christ who has the words of eternal life:Whoever divorces his wife unlawfully and marries another commits adultery! St. Catherine of Genoa had an unfaithful husband. She moped around about it for five years and then she became a saint because of it. Think of the all the great saints whose marriages were unhappy or where they were even abused. God did not tell them better luck next time and allow them to enter into adultery in order to feel better.
My question is if someone is committing adultery or fornication, why do they even wish to receive Holy Communion? By their actions, they are saying to God, "I don’t care what you think or want; I want to do what I want to do."They live as if their is no God but themselves and their feelings.

 

[Eternal_One]

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

If the Church did change its tradition on marriage, would Galatians 1:8 be appicable? Is St Paul instructing not to go along with changes made to tradition of the gospels?

 

[phil19034]

Dear SirachII

Concerning annulments: A friend is fighting the annulment of her decades-long marriage with 12 children. Her ex-husband sought the annulment in order to marry a Mexican woman whom he picked up. The diocese declined to annul the marriage. Now the ex is appealing to the nearest archdiocese. Some of my friend witnesses have died, but hopefully she will stop the husband’s bamboozling of the marriage tribunal.
Apparently, my friend is the rare exception to the rubber stamp annulments that are being churned out. Pope John Paul was greatly concerned about the great number of annulments in the US and the West. He did not think it a good thing at all.

[edited]but Jesus Christ who has the words of eternal life:Whoever divorces his wife unlawfully and marries another commits adultery! St. Catherine of Genoa had an unfaithful husband. She moped around about it for five years and then she became a saint because of it. Think of the all the great saints whose marriages were unhappy or where they were even abused. God did not tell them better luck next time and allow them to enter into adultery in order to feel better.
My question is if someone is committing adultery or fornication, why do they even wish to receive Holy Communion? By their actions, they are saying to God, "I don’t care what you think or want; I want to do what I want to do."They live as if their is no God but themselves and their feelings.

I think we should all be concerned about the great number of annulments in the US and West. But I don’t believe that most are being “rubber stamped” as you suggest. Sure, there might be a diocese or two (and perhaps several in Germany) who are too loose with the annulment, but in general, I don’t think the Church is annulling valid marriages.

I think the real problem is too many young Catholic couples (and older ones for that matter) have bought into the secular redefinition of marriage. If they are getting married in the Church only to satisfy mom & dad or grandma; and do not believe in the Sacrament of Marriage, then their marriage may not be valid. If they believe that the vows are just words and ceremony, and don’t really mean anything; then there isn’t a Sacrament. And if they don’t believe the vows are between bride, groom & God, then there isn’t a Sacrament.

The real reason there are so many annulments is because there are way too many invalid marriages.

I pray that this Synod realizes that what needs to be done is teach YOUNG children, YOUNG Teens, Older Teens, Young Adults, Old Adults, etc about the Sacrament of Marriage.

In most places, we don’t receive Catechesis regarding the Sacrament of Marriage until Pre-Cana. Well, to be frank, it’s too late then. We need to be teaching about the Sacrament of Marriage (and all 7 Sacraments) from an early age and never stop. We need Young Adults finding potential spouses in a state of Chastity and understanding what Marriage is about. Not learning about the Sacrament of Marriage after the reception hall has been booked.

May The Father send down the Holy Spirit upon the Synod so they can make the right decisions for God’s people. Amen.

 

[Deltadeliquent]

I totally agree with Phil.
My own situation is a good example. As an adult convert I was not taught about the sacraments, except for their form, and cursory spirituality. And to my own regret I didn’t teach myself until I had already run afoul.
I could have saved both myself and my children a lot of heartache if I paid attention.

I think a lot of people don’t pay attention. The Church should teach us all, over and over and over, to pay attention to what is about to happen. The wedding is not the marriage…

Why don’t we hire more administrators for a parish and let the priest get on with real pastoral work. I see movies where the priest visits the home of parishioners, they gently chide a wrong doer when passing them by on the street…they pay attention to their people and pastor them. I’ve been a Catholic since 1980, and never been in a parish like that. The only time I was actually asked to come in and have a chat with the priest was when my daughter died, and he saw me crying hysterically for over 5 hours at the hospital.

We live in an age where neighbors actively do not support each other. Families do not support each other. In both instances of my “marriages” I actively sought help and support from both my parents and I laws for issues. I was told neither party was willing to interfere in anyway. I am not blaming anyone for my situation, but I do wonder if things would have turned out the same way if I had had a village behind me, rather than being left alone in the woods to figure things out for myself.

 

[mkoopman]

…
So why worry about anything more than one’s own salvation? As Sirach2 says, keep the faith.

A promise made by Jesus cannot fail. It hasn’t failed in 2000 years. If it ever does fail, it would mean that the Bible isn’t a pillar of the Truth, and no amount of posturing about returning to a smaller, purer Church would be able to change that fact.

Not all of us have fallen to the same depths of depravity, speaking for myself, of course.

No amount of posturing? Or, perhaps … imposturing, is a better word choice. How many of the new age religions tend to … uhh, “de-emphasize” certain elements of the cannon in favor of others. Or, why not go Luther-like and decide to omit elements of the cannon. As it seems clear that this is not a new trick with even Gnostic writings being promoted by the secular press and through other agencies.

Still, no amount of posturing? Should I take this as a mild cynicism? Clearly there is no limit to the amount of posturing that is done to deny the truth of our Savior, Jesus Christ.