Concerning Female Ordination

[kkollwitz]

As far back as Abel, offering sacrifice has always been a man’s job. Between what the Bible and the Church have to say, that settles it for me. And as others have said, it’s finally comes down to humility and faith.

 

[tee_eff_em]

[For the most part: **tl;dr]

As far back as Abel, offering sacrifice has always been a man’s job. Between what the Bible and the Church have to say, that settles it for me. And as others have said, it’s finally comes down to humility and faith.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again (and not to contradict the above):

Every Tom, Dick, and Harry’s pagan fertility religion was served by priestesses. Judaism and her daughter in Faith, Christianity, were radical for utilizing a male-only priesthood.

Priestesses are not a new and progressive idea.

:twocents:
tee

 

[guanophore]

Hi all,

I have friends, all Protestant theologians, who are part of a strong Protestant movement to enable women in clerical positions. They all argue from scripture and church history.

Question: I would like to know how Catholicism answers both the Biblical arguments and historical arguments like the one’s below:

Biblical:
A big leadership figure in this movement is Dr Philip B. Payne, author of “Man and Woman, One in Christ: An Exegetical and Theological Study of Paul’s Letters” (amzn.to/1YcDAZC). Other such books preceded his, but his seems to be the one that is most decisive in arguing in favor of female clergy particularly from St. Paul’s letters.

Historical:
Also, a book titled “Junia: The First Woman Apostle” (amzn.to/1YcDCkf) by Eldon Jay Epp, is presumed to be an important work in showing that the early church endorsed female clergy.

The Biblical arguments from Payne, combined with historical work such as that by Epp, makes for a pretty compelling argument and is having increasing wide and far reaching impact among Protestants.

Regards

I think it is important, when visiting this topic, not to be co-opted by semantics. Our separated brethren, for the most part, ,do not have a concept of the priesthood/ordination, so it is difficult to have the discussion.

Ordination, for those who still cling to apostolic faith, draws the recipient into the one priesthood of Jesus.

There are many roles of leadership for women in the Church, and they have persisted since the birth of the Church. There is no higher position than the one given to Mary, our Theotokos.

One of the issues here is that of role. There are also many males that serve leadership positions in the Church who are not ordained.

 

[guanophore]

as will mine but since some people entertain ideas contrary to the church’s teaching, it’s prudent to remain knowledgeable about what arguments they put forth so we can respond faithfully and thoughtfully.

This is very true.

many are referred to as deaconesses, and the fact that one of Israel’s best judges was Deborah, a female, are some of the responses in terms of the Biblical data.

Then, Junia is clearly female which is found in the Biblical data, and Eldon Jay Epp wrote the book “Junia: The first woman apostle” - something that I’d love to hear a catholic response on.

There are also the women who accompanied Jesus and the Apostles, who likely did the cooking and laundry. There have always been women who devote their lives to the service of Christ. Some of these are referred to in the NT as “enrolled widows”, those who first consecrated their lives to Christ.

There is also Mary of Magdala, who is called the “apostle to the apostles”, as she was chosen by our Lord to “go tell my brethren”. None of these roles, whether the deaconesses, or Junia, are the same as ordination.

The counter logic is that even though Jesus was incarnated as a male, and even though we refer to God the Father with male terminology, God is actually gender-less or gender-neutral.

Yes, and when He created humanity, He created them male and female, because this was the best way to represent His fullness of being.

He is gender neutral, but we are not, and He entered humanity gender specific. If he wanted to ordain females, he probably would have started with his own mother.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

At the instant of transubstantiation; the priest is miraculously transformed into “Alter-Christi” [another Christ]. So we have a miracle within the miracle of Miracles. A mystery within the MYSTERY.

This statement makes no sense to me as a priest. I am not “miraculously transformed” in any sense when I pronounce the words of consecration during the Eucharistic prayer. Rather, I preside at the Eucharist as alter Christus, in persona Christi capitis, because of the ontological change effected in me at my ordination to the priesthood. Acting in persona Christi capitis however extends beyond the act of consecrating the Eucharistic elements or presiding at the Eucharistic liturgy.

 

[guanophore]

What you mention is not intentional picking and choosing , but disagreements.

Keep the faith , Starwars

Perhaps coming at this from a different direction. Catholics receive the faith as it was handed down from the Apostles through the paradosis. We read scripture through the lens of this Sacred Tradition.

Sola Scriptura elevates the individual understanding over and above the Sacred Tradition, so that disagreements occur. This began in the early reformation, especially regarding the meaning of the Eucharist. Even Luther was provoked that any Tom, Dick, or Harry thought they could interpret the Scriptures!

Of course each group is intentially picking and choosing verses that support their disagreeing doctrines, but it is because they have received those doctrines, then read the Scripture in the light of them. Most of them have no clue that the doctrines they received are different from what the Apostles believed and taught.

 

[steve53]

I don’t get it.

God is a male.

The Angels are male.

Satan is a male.

Adam, the first human, was a male.

Eve was made from Adam’s RIB, for gosh sakes.

All the Jewish priests were male.

John the Baptist was a male.

Jesus was a male.

All the disciples were male.

These feminists are grasping at straws, aren’t they?

 

[guanophore]

I don't get it.

God is a male.

Jesus became incarnate as a male, but one must be mindful that, in order for Him to accurately represent Himself in humankind, he made them male and female in His own image and likeness.

The Angels are male.

This is not accurate either. Throughout salvation history they have been perceived as primarily male, but Jesus teaches us.

Matt. 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

The angels are spirits, and do not have gender.

.Satan is a male.

Satan, as an angel, does not have gender either.

Adam, the first human, was a male.

Eve was made from Adam’s RIB, for gosh sakes.

All the Jewish priests were male.

John the Baptist was a male.

Jesus was a male.

All the disciples were male.

This last statement is not true either. His Apostles were male, but from the beginning, He had plenty of women who were faithful disciples.

These feminists are grasping at straws, aren’t they?

Perhaps they are reacting to overzealous patriarchy?

 

[steve53]

Ahem Adam was made in God’s image.

Catholics/feminists can start their own religion if they want and base it on anything they want but I think it’s very disingenuous to try to hijack the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not a democracy no matter how loud you shout.

In fact there are several religions based on the teachings of Jesus that are doing quite well.

Good luck!

 

[Gorgias]

Ahem Adam was made in God’s image.

Ahem Adam and Eve were made in God’s image.

(Re-read Genesis 1:27, and pay close attention to the nouns and pronouns used: God created mankind in His image; in the image of God He created them.)

Even so, God does not have gender. Therefore, the imago Dei cannot speak to physical gender.

You can make the case that imago Dei refers to roles; but even that is stretching it. Even from a Scriptural perspective, you’d have a hard time proving your point – the statement “male and female He created them” stands apart from the clauses that speak of the Imago Dei.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Ahem Adam was made in God’s image.

Ahem Genesis 1:27

:bible1:
tee

 

[steve53]

God made Adam first, and he made him male.

It’s tough to get around that but I am sure you will try. And try. And try.

And if there are enough people like you then the Catholic Church might well ordain females as priests.

A sad day for Catholicism if that occurs.