Concerning salvation outside the church

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calinorth86

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Do the Catechism Of The Catholic Church and the council of Florence contradict each other?

This is why I ask

Council Of Florence 1442

https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#4

It believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.

Catechism Of the Catholic Church

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: (161; 1257)

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation

As you can see there is an apparent contradiction but I’m just a layman so I don’t really know if it really is a contradiction.
 
No. It is a matter of who is a heretic and schismatic?

The Catechism acknowledges that not all believing, faithful persons who are not fully incorporated into the visible Church are necessarily guilty of heresy or schism.

A person will be judged based on what they know, and how they act according to that knowledge.

James 4
Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

But whoever is saved will not oppose the Catholic faith. God judges whether a person acted on faith in heart and deed.
 
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The Church is the Bride of Christ.

Revelations 22
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let him who hears say, “Come.” And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.
 
But the council of florence includes pagans as those who are condemed, and pagans cant be heretics or schismatics because they are not catholic.
 
calinorth86 said:
But the council of florence includes pagans as those who are condemed, and pagans cant be heretics or schismatics because they are not catholic.
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"… unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives"

What constitutes “joined to the Catholic Church”?

I believe the Church Teaches that seeking God and acting upon what they know.
 
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So how will pagans be saved If they need the eucharist and baptism. Will god give them these sacraments and conversion to the catholic faith before they die?
 
John 3:5
5 ¶ Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 
God cannot and will not ounish someone for something they could not or did not know they needed to do…

The random Tibetan hermit in the mountains who has never heard of Jesus Christ but also lived a good life in accordance to the law of God written on his heart and the natural law has no reason to not go to heaven.
 
Yes, he does, as we all do, but if it was impossible for him to get it (IE he never saw anyone else in the mountains) it would not be held against him by God.
 
Notice the line you didn’t bold from Florence: “unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives;”

Those not formally Catholic can be joined to the Catholic Church by faith and charity which can suffice where Baptism is lacking through no fault of the person since such dispositions would naturally include the desire for Baptism if it were known. With regard to faith–that is, believing in Jesus Christ–as the CCC notes just after the section you quoted, “in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him” (CCC 848). It is those who are following an upright conscience who would have no fault in the matter and who would ultimately be led to faith.

With regards to those baptized in other communities, St. Augustine says this of those who receive baptism “in heresy or schism without deceit, that is to say, with full sincerity of heart”:
I should have no hesitation in saying that all men possess baptism who have received it in any place, from any sort of men, provided that it were consecrated in the words of the gospel, and received without deceit on their part with some degree of faith; although it would be of no profit to them for the salvation of their souls if they were without charity, by which they might be grafted into the Catholic Church. For “though I have faith,” says the apostle, “so that I could remove mountains, but have not charity, I am nothing.”
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http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/14087.htm

And again, St. Augustine provides the proper definition of a heretic:
But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics.
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http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm

I hope that helps!
 
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Then why did Jesus say if you are not baptized you wont have eternal life.
 
Because the people who Jesus was talking to could actually be baptized.

How can you be punished for not doing something you didn’t know existed?
 
Thx @genesis that really helps but is the catechism saying that if you live according to natural law you would want baptism therefore you would be saved because you wanted to be baptised. Am I right?
 
Thx for taking the time to respond guys and girls. God bless you
 
calinorth86 said:
cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives
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Pope Pius XII gave a clarification on this Aug. 8, 1949 in Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston, DS 3870; ND 855.

“… no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.”
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Lumen Gentium, Chapter 2, Footnote 19: Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72 Apologetics
Can someone who has the Denzinger book reproduce the contents of the specified pages, or if the letter Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston. is somewhere online, produce that? It’s from a chapter-specific footnote in Lumen Gentium, paragraph 16. Thanks.
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Yes, if you strive to living according to the will of God–which is known in one’s upright conscience and the natural law–and cooperate with God’s grace to follow it, it would include a desire for Baptism once known (since that is part of God’s will).
 
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calinorth86 said:
Council Of Florence 1442
It believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.
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Just my opinion but I think this is a good example of a highly contextualized statement. For people in Europe in 1442 it made sense. To universalize it does not.
 
Brings up the reality of the living Magisterium of the Catholic Church.
We are not sola anything.
Not Sola Scriptura, not Sola Council of Trent, or Florence, or anything else.

We are first and foremost…the continuous Living Body of the Risen Christ. All of revelation is summed up in Christ: Living word of God, continuous Living Tradition, Living Magisterium.

That’s the fullest Christian context.
 
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