Concerning Salvation

[AMDGJMJ2]

A.C.J. ICXC A.M.D.G. MPOV A.C.M.

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To Those Whom It May Concern,
I have a favor to ask of any of you who can spare the time…I do not see how there such a thing as “baptism of desire” or “baptism of blood” that can by itself save one’s soul. For did not Jesus say, “Amen, Amen, I say to you, Unless man be baptized by water and the Holy Spirit he shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven”? If we do not take His words liturally concerning this; then how can we take His words liturally concerning the bread and wine being His Most Precious Body and Blood? And so if what He says He means liturally; how can man enter the Kingdom of Heaven without Baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit?

 I seek only the truth, and ask you to explain the truth to me if this is not it.  I do not see how anything else is possible, yet I know that through humanity all of us are fallible.

 May God bless you and help you to aid me in my need!

Yours in Christ,
AMDGJMJ2

 

[ckempston]

I’m not a Catholic, but your question seems to reveal an underlying problem with the existence of exceptions to rules. Jesus himself made an exception to the very rule you’re asking about when he forgave the thief on the cross and when he variously forgave sins while on earth. Therefore, if you will, the thief on the cross received “the baptism of desire.”

 

[AMDGJMJ2]

Ckempston,
The Church was not officially founded until Pentecost. Note that it was after the Holy Spirit came down upon them that they baptized very many souls. The Church has believed (I think) that this was the beginning of the Church, and that is therefore when baptism became necessary. The thief died before then, and therfore he did not need to be Baptized…At least these are what seem to be right…
So, again I implore those on this forum…If I am write please tell me, and if I am not show me proof…
Until then…May God guide us all.

Yours in Christ,
AMDGJMJ2

 

[Yerusalyim]

Jesus also SHOWS the exception in the Good Thief who was saved while on the cross.

 

[ckempston]

Christian Baptism was instituted prior to the church: John 3, Matt 28, Mark 16, etc, so I’d tend to disagree with you, AMD.

The Apostles and other “current” followers of Jesus at the time of Pentecost were not re-baptized with water.

It’s also questionable whether those who received John’s Baptism in Acts were re-baptized in water (Acts 19), or simply when Paul laid hands on them. In any case, they received the Spirit when Paul laid hands on them, not at Baptism, according to the text, which makes this another example of an exception if you ask me.

 

[7rosario]

Christian Baptism was instituted prior to the church: John 3, Matt 28, Mark 16, etc, so I’d tend to disagree with you, AMD.

The Apostles and other “current” followers of Jesus at the time of Pentecost were not re-baptized with water.

It’s also questionable whether those who received John’s Baptism in Acts were re-baptized in water (Acts 19), or simply when Paul laid hands on them. In any case, they received the Spirit when Paul laid hands on them, not at Baptism, according to the text, which makes this another example of an exception if you ask me.

St. John Chrysostom:
"That the need of water is absolute and indispensable, you may learn in this way. On one occasion, when the Spirit had flown down before the water was applied, the Apostle did not stay at this point, but, as though the water were necessary and not superfluous, observe what he says; “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” ( Acts x. 47 .) newadvent.org/fathers/240125.htm

 

[jim28]

Ckempston,
The Church was not officially founded until Pentecost. Note that it was after the Holy Spirit came down upon them that they baptized very many souls. The Church has believed (I think) that this was the beginning of the Church, and that is therefore when baptism became necessary. The thief died before then, and therfore he did not need to be Baptized…At least these are what seem to be right…
So, again I implore those on this forum…If I am write please tell me, and if I am not show me proof…
Until then…May God guide us all.

Yours in Christ,
AMDGJMJ2

Jesus also SHOWS the exception in the Good Thief who was saved while on the cross.

Christian Baptism was instituted prior to the church: John 3, Matt 28, Mark 16, etc, so I’d tend to disagree with you, AMD.

The Apostles and other “current” followers of Jesus at the time of Pentecost were not re-baptized with water.

It’s also questionable whether those who received John’s Baptism in Acts were re-baptized in water (Acts 19), or simply when Paul laid hands on them. In any case, they received the Spirit when Paul laid hands on them, not at Baptism, according to the text, which makes this another example of an exception if you ask me.

Baptism was instituted when Jesus gave the Apostles the commission to baptize after His Resurrection and before his Ascension.

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism** became obligatory on all who were to be saved.”**

After this it became mandatory to be Baptized. Thereby excusing the “Good Thief”, and like others say, the “Holy Innocents”.

 

[latinmasslover]

I seek only the truth, and ask you to explain the truth to me if this is not it. I do not see how anything else is possible, yet I know that through humanity all of us are fallible.

Your prayers have been answered, the infallible latinmasslover is here!

To Those Whom It May Concern,
I have a favor to ask of any of you who can spare the time…I do not see how there such a thing as “baptism of desire” or “baptism of blood” that can by itself save one’s soul. For did not Jesus say, “Amen, Amen, I say to you, Unless man be baptized by water and the Holy Spirit he shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven”? If we do not take His words liturally concerning this; then how can we take His words liturally concerning the bread and wine being His Most Precious Body and Blood? And so if what He says He means liturally; how can man enter the Kingdom of Heaven without Baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit?

Good question. He said that we’re to be baptized by water and the Holy Ghost, meaning that this is what we’re to do, we’re not to put it off.

The goodness and mercy of God permits exceptions, always has. This is what the Baptism of Desire and Blood are: exceptions. Look at it this way, Muhammed is driving to the church. Today’s the day, he’s going from Moslem to Christian, Holy Baptism 15 minutes away. SLAM! A truck runs a red light, hits and kills him. Does the goodness, mercy, even justice of God damn him? It’s like dying without having confessed a mortal sin, you’re not necessarily damned. True contrition provides the exception.
Baptism of Blood is the same thing, one is dying for the love of Jesus and His Church. Does a just God damn him?

Baptism of water is not to be put off, and doing that unnecessarily can…well, it’s not worth the chance. Desire and Blood are exceptions, not the norm. I believe SS Felicity and Perpetua were not baptized, but they were both martyrs.

Have any of the posts helped your understanding, or are you still weary?