Concerning tradition?

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I think Zooey was referring to the canon of scripture itself as being a non-written tradition that is not found in the bible. The bible does not self-authenticate the cannon of books that are included or excluded. It has been from the Tradition and Magesterial authority of the Church that the books of Scripture were identified, culled from non-inspired works, and declared to be inspired writings. Nothing in the bible identifies the 73 (or even 66) books of the bible.

However, I’m not sure if this answers the request for an oral tradition from Apostolic times that is not found in the bible. Since the books of the NT were not completed and compiled until some time after the Apostles, the answer may be technically incorrect. However, the point is well taken that the canon of scripture is itself a tradition that cannot be proved or disproved by scripture alone.

My example of an “oral apostolic tradition” not found in the bible is the mass. Although scripture documents the early Christian community coming together for community worship on the Lord’s Day, there are no specific instructions within Scripture for the Eucharistic liturgy and for community reading and reflecting on Scripture (the Liturgy of the Word). However, Tradition has passed down the mass in several forms (or liturgies) including one of the most ancient forms that, I believe, is still said in Aramaic - the language of Christ and the Apostles. (Can’t recall which Eastern rite it is however.)

Another oral tradition would be the baptism of infants.

Another oral tradition would be holy orders - priesthood and bishophric.

Another oral tradition would be the Christian marriage ceremony - which most christian churches have retained in some form.

Another oral tradition would be confession of sins for forgiveness.

Another oral tradition would be confirmation - also retained by many reformed churches as part of their liturgies - and linked directly to the practices of the Apostles and early Church.

While there is indirect proof of each of these in Scripture, the Church does not rely solely upon Scripture to support them. Each has been passed down by the Church as part of the entire Deposit of Faith.

Peace,
Robert
And peace also with you, Robert.
I agree with you. I was just responding to the unneeded and incorrect attack on Luther regarding the canon. For 1,000 years before Trent, Catholic scholars and theologians were permitted to debate the canon and the dc books. That is what Luther was doing.
You’ve made a very interesting list, which sheds light on the fallacy that sola scriptura rejects
Tradition. Properly understood, SS embraces Tradition that reflects and does not contradict scripture. Of course, we have differing views of who makes that determination.

Jon
 
:hmmm: My copy of Luther’s Bible has the table of contents, and the dc books.
Sometimes it is best not to raise one’s hand unless certain of the answer. 👍 😃

:confused: Is the Table of Contents doctrinal?

Jon
It’s an infallible oral teaching of the Church (promulgated to the Universal Church by Pope Innocent I) that exists outside of Scripture (by necessity, since you can’t define a thing by itself - it has to be defined from outside of itself).
 
Properly understood, SS embraces Tradition that reflects and does not contradict scripture. Of course, we have differing views of who makes that determination.
Agreed. There are also differing views among protestant christian communities regarding the role (if any) for Tradition in defining doctrine. Some reject any and all traditions, while others accept Tradition that does not conflict with their reading and interpretation of Scripture. I agree that we certainly do have differing views on what Tradition does, and does not, contradict scripture. I would say no Catholic Tradition contradicts Scripture, while I’m sure you would disagree. I would say some doctrines accepted by Lutheranis as tradition contradict scripture, and I’m sure you would disagree.

You pray for me. I’ll pray for you, and we’ll sort it out together in heaven.

I think that my list of Tradition has support in Church history and can be seen implicitly in Scripture. I’m not sure if you think this weakens the Church’s position or strengthens it. Some christians would say there is “no support” for infant baptism, or the ordination of a ministerial priesthood, or confession, or the Eucharist. Yet, the fact of their presence within the Apostolic Tradition of the Church supports their truth apart from Scripture (but not contrary to it).

Peace,
Robert
 
1.Provide a single example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about? Provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.

2.Provide a single example of where inspired apostolic “oral revelation” (tradition) differed from “written” (scripture)?
Wait a minute.

Why should we provide YOU proof? Looks like yet another bait and switch post from Christalone so that he can “show” us how wrong we all are. :rolleyes:

These threads are tiresome and quite transparent as to your motives.
 
=Robert in SD;5337797]Agreed. There are also differing views among protestant christian communities regarding the role (if any) for Tradition in defining doctrine. Some reject any and all traditions, while others accept Tradition that does not conflict with their reading and interpretation of Scripture. I agree that we certainly do have differing views on what Tradition does, and does not, contradict scripture. I would say no Catholic Tradition contradicts Scripture, while I’m sure you would disagree. I would say some doctrines accepted by Lutheranis as tradition contradict scripture, and I’m sure you would disagree.
I think, Robert, that Churches closer to the reformation tend to have maintained a greater respect and use of Tradition.
You pray for me. I’ll pray for you, and we’ll sort it out together in heaven.
Good plan, but I’m hoping it will get sorted out sooner.
I think that my list of Tradition has support in Church history and can be seen implicitly in Scripture. I’m not sure if you think this weakens the Church’s position or strengthens it. Some christians would say there is “no support” for infant baptism, or the ordination of a ministerial priesthood, or confession, or the Eucharist. Yet, the fact of their presence within the Apostolic Tradition of the Church supports their truth apart from Scripture (but not contrary to it).
I think Lutherans would say that scriptural support for these is stronger than “implicit” (for the Eucharist, at least, the scriptural support is explicit), and it would be on that basis that we share these truths with you.

Jon

Peace,
Robert
 
I think, Robert, that Churches closer to the reformation tend to have maintained a greater respect and use of Tradition.
Funny how it works that way, isn’t it.
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JonNC:
Good plan, but I’m hoping it will get sorted out sooner.
Me too! 👍
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JonNC:
I think Lutherans would say that scriptural support for these is stronger than “implicit” (for the Eucharist, at least, the scriptural support is explicit), and it would be on that basis that we share these truths with you.
I agree. Sad that other church communities disagree - even about truths that Lutherans and Catholics can share.

Peace,
Robert
 
1.Provide a single example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about? Provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.

2.Provide a single example of where inspired apostolic “oral revelation” (tradition) differed from “written” (scripture)?

How about, for (1):​

  • The addition of scriptures to the Tanakh
  • The** writing** of a new Testament
  • The inspiration by God of those writings
  • The canonisation of the NT
  • The canonisation of** those writings in particular**
These are different aspects of a single fact: that the followers of Jesus, without the slightest encouragement from Jesus or from the TaNaKh, & in absolute disregard of both, had the effrontery to add to the Bible.

By normal “anti-Catholic” logic, the five points outlined above are as flagrantly anti-Christian as any of the other “inventions” of Rome.
  • Satirical rant begins:
It is a measure of the need for a TRUE Reformation that these blasphemous & damnable books have not been thrown out of the Church. Jesus had no need of Romans or Galatians or John or Acts - so neither do TRUE Christians.

Satirical ranting apart, there is a real issue here. To work out a demonstration of the wickedness of the Papists in adding to the perfect word of God by composing their 27 extra books might be a very useful intellectual exercise; it would help to test the validity of the sorts of arguments and ideas people use, because, in fact, the status of these writings is one subject about which RCs & their severer Evangelical critics agree. In any case, it is not enough for “anti-Catholic” positions to define themselves by being “not Romish”. ISTM that the usual arguments against tradition need to be re-considered; to stop at repeating them, is to indulge in the deadening kind of traditionalism that fossilises the Gospel & drains it of power; this kind of traditionalism is not a Christian position at all. 😦

There may well be good arguments to show that the five positions above are not the difficulties they seem for an estimate of the Bible that has it as the supreme judge in all controversies - but what are they ? What is always needed is “renewal of the mind” (cf. Rom.12.2), & this means we have to “live dangerously”: we have to let our positions, no matter how cherished or in which tradition they may be found, be open to change. The acorn is probably quite happy to be an acorn - yet it has no business not to fall into the ground and become an oak. If we don’t do this, we are in effect claiming that we have nothing to learn - that we are not mathetai, discipuli, disciples, learners. Which implies that the Church & its proclamation belongs not to the Lord of the Church, but, to us. Without change, there can be no Christian Tradition. Not for RCs - & not for Evangelicals, who are as reliant on tradition as any RC; it just happens not to have quite the same content as RC Tradition.

This does not mean that all traditions are, because traditional, to be accepted as part of Tradition: but those who are critical of either or both, need to have the tools to discriminate between what is acceptable & what is not; which in turn calls for adequate methods of discrimination. And the method that rejects all Traditions or all Tradition or both out of hand, purely because they are “not in the Bible” (in some sense - but what is that sense ?) is not adequate.

FWIW, the study of the history of the development of the NT canon could be regarded as a form of what is stigmatised as “liberalism”: for, just like the interpretation of the books themselves, it is an historical investigation, & for that reason it is as liable as the historical criticism of the texts to come up with hitherto unsuspected solutions. Be that as it may, this is not something that Christians should have difficulty accepting; even if they do.
 
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