Concerns in my RCIA and Church

[Della]

Back around 1998 my wife and I didn’t use the diocesan RCIA materials at all, and made our own Bible and Catechism based curriculum.

Which is part of the problem. Some materials are reliable and others not. If there were a standard for all dioceses–one that follows the CCC, perhaps, that would be best, IMHO. That you had to come up with your own program isn’t a good thing–not that your program wasn’t good, but that you had to do that–that’s not how it should be, I think you would agree.

 

[Usige]

Which is part of the problem. Some materials are reliable and others not. If there were a standard for all dioceses–one that follows the CCC, perhaps, that would be best, IMHO. That you had to come up with your own program isn’t a good thing–not that your program wasn’t good, but that you had to do that–that’s not how it should be, I think you would agree.

I would tend to agree, but few RCIA programs even follow the statues as laid down in the rite. For instance the statues clearly states that candidates (i.e. those already baptized) should be formed as per their knowledge of Christian life (paragraph 30) and that “no greater burden than necessary” should be required before they are received. Despite that I’d guess that more than 98% of parishes push everyone through RCIA regardless of their status. It would be fairly rare for a candidate to show up, talk to the head of RCIA or DRE and be allowed to be confirmed in a few months. Heck my parish makes candidates wait until a week after Easter to make their profession of faith. So they aren’t treated like catechumen, but as almost an after thought despite the fact that candidates make up 90-100% of those entering the Church in my area.

I would be all for a standardized way to do things, but I don’t see how you would ever enforce it.

 

[kkollwitz]

“That you had to come up with your own program isn’t a good thing”

The RCIA course wasn’t ideal for Catholics in the Bible Belt: it worked mostly with excerpts from the Catechism and documents from Vatican II. But our Fundiegelical catechumens needed to learn their Catholicism directly from the Bible in order to better explain (or defend) the Faith to their Evangelical and Fundamentalist neighbors and family members. In other words, the Catechism was a resource, and the Bible was the textbook. It was very specifically tailored to work with the catechumens- they already thought well of Catholicism, but still wanted to see the Bible be organically part of it.

It’s interesting to be Catholic in Greenville SC.

 

[Della]

I would tend to agree, but few RCIA programs even follow the statues as laid down in the rite. For instance the statues clearly states that candidates (i.e. those already baptized) should be formed as per their knowledge of Christian life (paragraph 30) and that “no greater burden than necessary” should be required before they are received. Despite that I’d guess that more than 98% of parishes push everyone through RCIA regardless of their status. It would be fairly rare for a candidate to show up, talk to the head of RCIA or DRE and be allowed to be confirmed in a few months. Heck my parish makes candidates wait until a week after Easter to make their profession of faith. So they aren’t treated like catechumen, but as almost an after thought despite the fact that candidates make up 90-100% of those entering the Church in my area.

I would be all for a standardized way to do things, but I don’t see how you would ever enforce it.

I agree there should be two programs–one for catechumens and another for candidates. The reality is most parishes have only so many people who will volunteer as it is and they aren’t qualified to discern who needs the whole RCIA prep time and who doesn’t. I think this should be something perhaps a deacon or at least someone with solid training should take on. But that’s not going to happen any time soon, I’m afraid. Still, if every parish used the same materials, it would help with consistency of teaching, which I feel is what is most needed right now.

 

[Della]

“That you had to come up with your own program isn’t a good thing”

The RCIA course wasn’t ideal for Catholics in the Bible Belt: it worked mostly with excerpts from the Catechism and documents from Vatican II. But our Fundiegelical catechumens needed to learn their Catholicism directly from the Bible in order to better explain (or defend) the Faith to their Evangelical and Fundamentalist neighbors and family members. In other words, the Catechism was a resource, and the Bible was the textbook. It was very specifically tailored to work with the catechumens- they already thought well of Catholicism, but still wanted to see the Bible be organically part of it.

It’s interesting to be Catholic in Greenville SC.

Yes, that’s another concern–specific needs in various areas. Another example, in places with a large Spanish speaking population, the program would have to be geared for their needs, etc. I know it would need tweeking, but in general, consistency is still needed so parishes will be teaching authentic Catholic doctrine/dogma.

 

[7_Sorrows]

If there is a standard RCIA program for all USA dioceses, I’ve never heard of it. Maybe our pianistclare would have info about that.

If there isn’t, there should be. RCIA ought to be standard, well taught, and well directed. That’s the ideal. And in many places RCIA is done very well. In others not so much, as people have shared from their own experiences. By “softening” the Church’s teachings and fudging the truth, those who hope to bring people in often do just the opposite. People aren’t stupid nor do they need to be coddled. We need to have the truth so we can come into the faith understanding what we are committing ourselves to. I agree.

Even so, I don’t think anyone should be discouraged from being received into the Church because of a poor RCIA program. Discernment ought to be based on God’s call, not the competency or incompetency of any particular RCIA program. We have to listen in prayer to what God wants us to do. Some of us will be called to improve such things in our parishes and for others we need to go where we can be useful/receive what we need. Would that the latter were not true, but sometimes it cannot be avoided.

that is an excellent idea that there should be a standard RCIA program used.

 

[Mr_Friscus]

Even though there is a definite swing back to orthodoxy in many parishes, there are others that are still overly influenced by the “values” of the societies in which they live. This leads to false “hopes” that the Church will change her teachings on some of the hot button issues of the day. But, of course, she isn’t going to do that. And as you cited, many parishes don’t want to dump “hard” teachings, IOW those teachings that society doesn’t like, unto catechumens and candidates precisely because they are afraid of driving people away.

Spot on Della. It would be fine if these stances stayed tucked away in corners. Unfortunately, I see right in front of me this “style”, a dangerous one, as it’s lack of precision causes the wrong end definitions.

I’m fine with praying. I do pray. My question is, is that my only option? Am I allowed to “push back” in any way against this wishful, whimsical modern American Catholicism that’s leading people to yearn for unacceptable things to be acceptable in the faith?

 

[Mr_Friscus]

Friscus, Paul is right. What you have encountered is probably the norm in the Church today and not the exception.

The way it’s leading, it could easily become schismatic, could it not?

I mean, between people wanting to follow their modern emotions and fight for allowing gay marriage, contraception, even abortion… It’s amazing how these things can even enter the walls of a church, much less flourish.

 

[Mr_Friscus]

What can you do? My suggestion is to volunteer to teach in the future. We can either abandon others to error or fight back by proclaiming the truth. Note, that this can be difficult though, We had a team of three that had headed up RCIA for 10+ years and they wanted nothing to do with changing the feelings based approach they used. If you have the opportunity you might either have to be more circumspect about correcting things or if you have a team in charge that blocks your attempts then talk to the pastor. It’s not fool proof, but I am a big proponent of “see a problem, offer to be part of the solution.”

I’ve had multiple people who I’ve spoken with tell me this.

Believe me when I say this, I’m not full of myself and bragging, but not only am I fascinated and passionate about Church history, but I also am myself in education… and in my mind, I just feel like I could represent the faith so much better than this Deacon and other members of the “teaching group” are.

Not only that, but human souls ARE at risk here. I mean, the people who are currently going through this class are being spoonfed lots of hollow, meaningless “how I feel” commentary. If anything, they might be disappointed that there’s no “beef” behind this giant, majestic, wonderful Catholic Church. They have taken the first step, and teachers need to strike their notion of wonder while the iron is hot. We should proudly declare how we as Catholics are different, not desperately attempt to cover it up.

 

[Mr_Friscus]

I attended RCIA several years ago and it was a bait and switch. The instructor told me things about Catholicism that simply aren’t true and left out some important parts altogether. My sister had a similar experience at a neighboring parish. If I had gone through with it and converted, it certainly wouldn’t have been a genuine conversion to Catholicism. I can’t help thinking that one of the goals of the RCIA program was to get as many converts as possible, and that they lied to me to make it more appealing to this Episcopalian. There’s a more orthodox (actually, he seems kind of reactionary) priest in that parish now, and while the numbers in the RCIA program this year are smaller, the students will be better prepared to make an informed decision.

I have a friend who is a traditional Catholic, she heavily protests Vatican II, and claims that while they are less in numbers, they aren’t “watered down”.

Perhaps an unforeseen result of Vatican II’s good intentions is that indeed, in this American culture, it has allowed openings for this kind of borderline heresy to be preached in the church.

 

[Mr_Friscus]

So, your “concerns” are merely to point out flaws in a particular parish program?

Indeed, is that not allowed?

Are you attempting to guilt me into retracting my words?

What do you think of my concerns?

 

[Casilda]

I’m fine with praying. I do pray. My question is, is that my only option? Am I allowed to “push back” in any way against this wishful, **whimsical modern American Catholicism **that’s leading people to yearn for unacceptable things to be acceptable in the faith?

You hit it!

I have a friend who is a traditional Catholic, she heavily protests Vatican II, and claims that while they are less in numbers, they aren’t “watered down”.

Perhaps an unforeseen result of Vatican II’s good intentions is that indeed, in this American culture, it has allowed openings for this kind of borderline heresy to be preached in the church.

Would it surprise you a Pope saw this coming back in the early 1900’s. Here’s a good read:

papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm

My once Pentecostal Christian, now Catholic husband is a member of a Catholic apostolate that is working to fight these modernist trends. Makes one unpopular and why we have friends that are Traddies and Old Catholics, too.

 

[Della]

Spot on Della. It would be fine if these stances stayed tucked away in corners. Unfortunately, I see right in front of me this “style”, a dangerous one, as it’s lack of precision causes the wrong end definitions.

I’m fine with praying. I do pray. My question is, is that my only option? Am I allowed to “push back” in any way against this wishful, whimsical modern American Catholicism that’s leading people to yearn for unacceptable things to be acceptable in the faith?

Indeed, you can “push back.” It’s how to do that most effectively that is the problem, as I see it.

Our people have been greatly influenced by the culture (I use the term loosely) around them. Many listen more to the dictates of that culture than to the Church, if their local parish is even providing authentic teaching. Most do provide it. Mine, thanks be, does. It’s hard to change mind sets that seem reasonable, and in which people feel comfortable, when the culture makes it easier to agree with it than not, yes?

So, we have to resist in love and with kindness, knowing that people mean well, but are misinformed, have their emotions tied up in feeling virtuous for the wrong reasons, and simply cannot see why the Church can’t just go with the flow. It takes time and lots of patience to change people’s hearts and minds. This is why I recommended prayer above all else. We need to pray for these people before we deal with them–to receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit and to speak the truth softly, but firmly.

New converts are often impatient over these issues. It’s that first love zeal that is so needed in the Church, I feel. Still, it needs to be tempered by prudential judgment and love. So, I recommend we to what we are able to do, pray, and leave the consequences in God’s hands. He is more concerned with the welfare of his people than any of us could be. All he asks is our cooperation and faithfulness, and he will do the rest.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m sorry that you experienced this in your RCIA. I don’t know statistics on the percentage of lackluster programs, but that it occurs at all is too often. We have a candidate in our parish this year who is going on his third attempt through RCIA with us and he has said repeatedly that the previous two parishes were not doing it well. Which he is okay with because now he is there with us where it is much better.

If you are able to, take a look at the Symbolon program. It was designed for use in RCIA and gives a fairly comprehensive overview of the Catholic faith.

While I think some direction in terms of RCIA would be beneficial, I would tend to disagree with having any sort of universal “program” that all parishes use. RCIA is a process of conversion, not a program of study. It really needs to be tailored to those that are there. You cannot approach the process the same way for the divorced Baptist who remarried a Catholic, the former Presbyterian minister, the atheist former drug addict and the high school sophomore who missed Confirmation because her family moved from another diocese. Each person is going to have a different knowledge base, different questions, and different hang-ups.

That’s why the materials from ACM, for example, only provide loose outlines and handouts that you customize based on the needs of the group. There is a general outline of what needs to be covered, but different ways to get there.

 

[Della]

I’m sorry that you experienced this in your RCIA. I don’t know statistics on the percentage of lackluster programs, but that it occurs at all is too often. We have a candidate in our parish this year who is going on his third attempt through RCIA with us and he has said repeatedly that the previous two parishes were not doing it well. Which he is okay with because now he is there with us where it is much better.

If you are able to, take a look at the Symbolon program. It was designed for use in RCIA and gives a fairly comprehensive overview of the Catholic faith.

While I think some direction in terms of RCIA would be beneficial, I would tend to disagree with having any sort of universal “program” that all parishes use. RCIA is a process of conversion, not a program of study. It really needs to be tailored to those that are there. You cannot approach the process the same way for the divorced Baptist who remarried a Catholic, the former Presbyterian minister, the atheist former drug addict and the high school sophomore who missed Confirmation because her family moved from another diocese. Each person is going to have a different knowledge base, different questions, and different hang-ups.

That’s why the materials from ACM, for example, only provide loose outlines and handouts that you customize based on the needs of the group. There is a general outline of what needs to be covered, but different ways to get there.

I suggested a universal program, perhaps Symbolon or something like it, because no matter our individual circumstances catechumens and candidates still need to learn the teachings, practices, and liturgies of the Church. No program can be so closely tailored as you suggest when you have several persons going through it together. I really can’t see any reason why such a program isn’t being provided when it is so greatly needed.

 

[kefi]

Mr. Friscus,

I, too, went through RCIA, but my parish was not like what you describe. There are parishes out there that are more conservative and true to the Church’s teachings. Sometimes it’s worth it to drive farther to go to Mass. Keep looking. Hopefully you will find a good Catholic parish. It will be worth the time and effort. God bless you. I will be praying for you. We need more Catholics like you!

 

[PJM]

Hello all, thanks for taking a peek. I’ve recently encountered some concerns in my church in regards to truly obeying the churches positions. I’ll keep this as simple and concise as possible.

1. I’m a new convert, confirmed in October. Grew up Protestant, and I would say I’m a moderately-informed student of church history, although my knowledge grows as my studies progress.
2. I was allowed to be confirmed at a quicker pace due to my drastic desire for it, of which I’m thankful. Yet, I still have decided to go through RCIA courses

I have to say I am entirely less than impressed with the RCIA courses. Most of the class is going around in a circle, asking people how they feel about things, which is probably okay to do for the first few minutes, but there’s no “beef” or true education going on. And to add, I’ve detected many modernist, humanist suggestions (some words and phrases are dead giveaways) regarding many long-standing issues, such as gay marriage.

And then there’s my confessions, a sacrament that I absolutely delight in. However, I also ask my priests questions. I must say, thus far they’ve alarmed me in their lack of urgency. There’s little to no demand. As I mentioned earlier, I come from Protestantism, and was well aware of the assault on Christianity by the “Mega-Rock Church” craze, along with its simplistic, no-authority, no standards, theology that at times resembled more of a drug rave rather than a worship service. I sense these new-age concepts, I’m well attuned to their language, and I hear it in my church. Quoting Francis out of context saying “Who am I to judge”, always taking the fluffy, emotional side rather than standing on the principles of the Catholic faith.

In this church, it’s just been screaming to me that they’re afraid to lay down the stances, like they’re afraid to push people away. They seem to want the transition to be as easy as possible, but that’s the rub. Being a Catholic isn’t easy in today’s world, especially as a convert who might be used to deviant actions and thought patterns. That’s what makes it so fulfilling, being able to point to your sacrifices for it, and sharing in this joint sacrifice to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

What do I do? Has anyone else encountered this?

MY dear friend in Christ,; PLEASE look for a private message from me:thumbsup:

PJM

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Hello all, thanks for taking a peek. I’ve recently encountered some concerns in my church in regards to truly obeying the churches positions. I’ll keep this as simple and concise as possible.

1. I’m a new convert, confirmed in October. Grew up Protestant, and I would say I’m a moderately-informed student of church history, although my knowledge grows as my studies progress.
2. I was allowed to be confirmed at a quicker pace due to my drastic desire for it, of which I’m thankful. Yet, I still have decided to go through RCIA courses

I have to say I am entirely less than impressed with the RCIA courses. Most of the class is going around in a circle, asking people how they feel about things, which is probably okay to do for the first few minutes, but there’s no “beef” or true education going on. And to add, I’ve detected many modernist, humanist suggestions (some words and phrases are dead giveaways) regarding many long-standing issues, such as gay marriage.

And then there’s my confessions, a sacrament that I absolutely delight in. However, I also ask my priests questions. I must say, thus far they’ve alarmed me in their lack of urgency. There’s little to no demand. As I mentioned earlier, I come from Protestantism, and was well aware of the assault on Christianity by the “Mega-Rock Church” craze, along with its simplistic, no-authority, no standards, theology that at times resembled more of a drug rave rather than a worship service. I sense these new-age concepts, I’m well attuned to their language, and I hear it in my church. Quoting Francis out of context saying “Who am I to judge”, always taking the fluffy, emotional side rather than standing on the principles of the Catholic faith.

In this church, it’s just been screaming to me that they’re afraid to lay down the stances, like they’re afraid to push people away. They seem to want the transition to be as easy as possible, but that’s the rub. Being a Catholic isn’t easy in today’s world, especially as a convert who might be used to deviant actions and thought patterns. That’s what makes it so fulfilling, being able to point to your sacrifices for it, and sharing in this joint sacrifice to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

What do I do? Has anyone else encountered this?

Dear friend in Christ, as space is restricted here on CAF I will address as much as I am able in a single post.

I’m a trained, experienced and certified Catholic Catechist who co-taught RCIA for 3 yrs before retiring. RCIA programs VARY greatly from parish to parish depending on the personal involvement of the priest and who he chooses to have as teachers.

So programs rate from very good to no so much so.

when a priest is not directly involved it is sadly possible that the “teachers” are less than fully qualified to hold that DEMANDING- position. [PLEASE look for a private message from me]

Not being privy to your actual classes I hesitate being judgmental. That said; there are in the course of our 2,000 year history a great many defined and immutable Doctrines & Dogma’s. RCIA by its most often built in restrictions: RCIA often runs from August to Easter ; which is insufficient to teach more than rudimentary beliefs [THUS the Q & A], and counts on an After Easter period of Mystagogy [advanced study into the Mysteries of our Faith], which some parishes are able to address, and others not so. Relying on the individual to seek out the necessary Faith-formation.

So you’re not alone in your fustration.
As A FYI:

About 8 years ago, after my retirement, I created a FREE OF ALL COST home study-e-mailed course. 1 Lesson each week & I also address all faith related questions with NO homework:thumbsup:

It is FAR more comprehensive than is RCIA both in topics addressed and in the depth of coverage of these topics. I strive to provide the evidence of our beliefs and practices; & to answer and address the Why and HOW we believe and practice as we do

My course is a prudent supplement to RCIA, not a replacement for it.

Anyone interested should just send me a Private Message [PJM]. .

Pray much my friend,

Patrick [PJM] here on CAF

 

[ynotzap]

Mr. Friscus
There is no evangelization if the name, teachings, life, promises, the kingdom and the mystery of Jesus, the Son of God are not proclaimed. The encounter with Jesus will not take place unless the Gospel is proclaimed by witness. Nevertheless this is always insufficient because the finest witness will prove ineffective if not explained and justified and made explicit by clear unequivocal proclamation of the Lord Jesus Christ by word. (Pope Paul VI)
The personal encounter with Christ is the ultimate influence for social and economic behavior (Pope John Paul ll)
" I consider all as loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord" (Phil 3:7-ll) “He is before all things, He is the beginning, that in all things He Himself might be PRE-EMINENT…in Him were created all things, for Him and through Him…” (l Col l:15-29)

We have strayed far afield through the years, we were drifting away from being Christio- centric, and secularism slowly seeped into the Church. We spoke more of the establishment and structure, laws, and activities of the Church then of the very core, and life of the Church, Jesus Christ and His Spirit. We formalized children by indoctrination, the sacramental system assuming that the result was a Christian, conversion was taken for granted. Many did not encounter Christ, we can not convert anyone, we can pre-dispose one to the encounter by teaching about Christ, and doing those things the Pope Paul clarifies in his encyclical “Evangelii Nuntiandi” We witness, and point the way, but Jesus does the converting, issues the grace that will make a real change in one’ life. When this happens,then and only then can one assimilate all the other pertinent truths that make up the Faith. We have put the cart before the horse, and many, many teachers do not realize this. So now you experience the results of this “lack of encounter with Jesus”, real conversion. This is why the Holy Spirit is emphasizing “Evangelization”

 

[PJM]

Mr. Friscus
There is no evangelization if the name, teachings, life, promises, the kingdom and the mystery of Jesus, the Son of God are not proclaimed. The encounter with Jesus will not take place unless the Gospel is proclaimed by witness. Nevertheless this is always insufficient because the finest witness will prove ineffective if not explained and justified and made explicit by clear unequivocal proclamation of the Lord Jesus Christ by word. (Pope Paul VI)
The personal encounter with Christ is the ultimate influence for social and economic behavior (Pope John Paul ll)
" I consider all as loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord" (Phil 3:7-ll) “He is before all things, He is the beginning, that in all things He Himself might be PRE-EMINENT…in Him were created all things, for Him and through Him…” (l Col l:15-29)

We have strayed far afield through the years, we were drifting away from being Christio- centric, and secularism slowly seeped into the Church. We spoke more of the establishment and structure, laws, and activities of the Church then of the very core, and life of the Church, Jesus Christ and His Spirit. We formalized children by indoctrination, the sacramental system assuming that the result was a Christian, conversion was taken for granted. Many did not encounter Christ, we can not convert anyone, we can pre-dispose one to the encounter by teaching about Christ, and doing those things the Pope Paul clarifies in his encyclical “Evangelii Nuntiandi” We witness, and point the way, but Jesus does the converting, issues the grace that will make a real change in one’ life. When this happens,then and only then can one assimilate all the other pertinent truths that make up the Faith. We have put the cart before the horse, and many, many teachers do not realize this. So now you experience the results of this “lack of encounter with Jesus”, real conversion. This is why the Holy Spirit is emphasizing “Evangelization”

While NOT agreeing NOR disagreeing with all you shared; somehow {I’m 71 And no doubt its ME}, but I don’t get the point of your post:shrug:

God Bless you,

PJM