Concerns over baptimism validity (RCIA concerns)

[BobbyNewmark]

Alright guys, I’m hoping that you can give me some advice.

I was baptized around the age of 8 in an Assemblies of God Church. However, no record was kept of the baptism, and that’s my first concern. My second concern is a bit different. To make an extremely long and painful story short, I lost my faith around the age of 19 over the discovery of . . . hypocrisy within the church. It has been painful journey over 7 years now, but I’m beginning my journey back to a life of Faith and am currently in the RCIA program.

On another note, the pastor who performed the baptism made some . . . questionable life choices later in life. Suffice to say that he is no longer a pastor and no longer with his family.

Now, the time is coming for the RCIA administrators to verify baptism. I have no record, and the whole past situation has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. I don’t know what to do; do I push forward and stand firm on my previous undocumented baptism? Do I elect to get properly baptized as part of the program? It’s a major roadblock in my spiritual life. Advice is appreciated.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Since you know you were already baptized you would not be baptized at the Easter Vigil. If there is some question as to whether your baptism was valid you would receive a conditional baptism at another time.

Baptism is a one-time thing. We do not baptize someone who has already been baptized, even if that person left the church, even if the minister of baptism wasn’t holy, or even if a person would like to be baptized again.

My advice would be to try and get confirmation that you were baptized. This might come from the church where the baptism took place, or through evidence from your parents, siblings, or godparents. Work with your RCIA team to get whatever you need to show that you were indeed already baptized.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Alright guys, I’m hoping that you can give me some advice.

I was baptized around the age of 8 in an Assemblies of God Church. However, no record was kept of the baptism, and that’s my first concern. My second concern is a bit different. To make an extremely long and painful story short, I lost my faith around the age of 19 over the discovery of . . . hypocrisy within the church. It has been painful journey over 7 years now, but I’m beginning my journey back to a life of Faith and am currently in the RCIA program.

On another note, the pastor who performed the baptism made some . . . questionable life choices later in life. Suffice to say that he is no longer a pastor and no longer with his family.

Now, the time is coming for the RCIA administrators to verify baptism. I have no record, and the whole past situation has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. I don’t know what to do; do I push forward and stand firm on my previous undocumented baptism? Do I elect to get properly baptized as part of the program? It’s a major roadblock in my spiritual life. Advice is appreciated.

I do not know anything about the Assemblies of God. Consequently, I do not know if their baptisms are recognised as valid by the Catholic Church. I would seek your parish priest’s advice on this matter. If he informs you that they are valid a certificate of baptism produced by that church would be ideal. If their baptisms are valid but you cannot provide a certificate of baptism your parish priest will advise you what alternative proofs can be accepted.

If all doubts about your baptism are cleared up you will be received into the Catholic Church with the sacrament of Confirmation. Shortly before this you will have to go to confession. At your Confirmation Mass you will receive Holy Communion for the first time.

If any doubts remain about your baptism you can receive conditional baptism. This is carried out privately. It should be followed by confession at which conditional absolution is given.

Please ask more questions if you’re not sure of anything. However, I think it would be easier to direct these questions to your priest and the catechist(s) running your RCIA course.

 

[mackk]

Alright guys, I’m hoping that you can give me some advice.

I was baptized around the age of 8 in an Assemblies of God Church. However, no record was kept of the baptism, and that’s my first concern. My second concern is a bit different. To make an extremely long and painful story short, I lost my faith around the age of 19 over the discovery of . . . hypocrisy within the church. It has been painful journey over 7 years now, but I’m beginning my journey back to a life of Faith and am currently in the RCIA program.
Welcome home

On another note, the pastor who performed the baptism made some . . . questionable life choices later in life. Suffice to say that he is no longer a pastor and no longer with his family.
**Whether or not your pastor was a holy man has no effect on your baptism … you are baptized in the name of father son and holy spirit and no seedy act of man can touch the sacredness of it. **

Now, the time is coming for the RCIA administrators to verify baptism. I have no record, and the whole past situation has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. I don’t know what to do; do I push forward and stand firm on my previous undocumented baptism? Do I elect to get properly baptized as part of the program?
There isn’t anything wrong with choosing to undergo the baptism again. even if it only serves to sooth you it has done it’s job … BUT you only need it once …
It’s a major roadblock in my spiritual life. Advice is appreciated.

i hope you find peace over this hun …
hugs and prayers

 

[Spirithound]

I was baptized around the age of 8 in an Assemblies of God Church. However, no record was kept of the baptism, and that’s my first concern. My second concern is a bit different. To make an extremely long and painful story short, I lost my faith around the age of 19 over the discovery of . . . hypocrisy within the church. It has been painful journey over 7 years now, but I’m beginning my journey back to a life of Faith and am currently in the RCIA program.

On another note, the pastor who performed the baptism made some . . . questionable life choices later in life. Suffice to say that he is no longer a pastor and no longer with his family.

Now, the time is coming for the RCIA administrators to verify baptism. I have no record, and the whole past situation has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. I don’t know what to do; do I push forward and stand firm on my previous undocumented baptism? Do I elect to get properly baptized as part of the program? It’s a major roadblock in my spiritual life. Advice is appreciated.

For a baptism to be valid, it must be done with water (the matter), with the words “I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” (the form), by someone other than yourself (the minister), who intends to “do what the Church does” (the intent). Bring this up with your priest, and he will decide whether you should be baptized absolutely, or conditionally, or whether you are indeed baptized already.

Please be assured that your loss of faith cannot, in any way invalidate your baptism, nor does the hypocrisy of your old church/pastor call into question your baptism.

Talk to your (Catholic) pastor, and he can guide you through getting proof of your baptism.

God bless

 

[Chopstick]

AoG uses the correct, trinitarian form, and immerses in water, so it’s a valid baptism. Your loss of faith or the pastor’s issues don’t affect it. If they didn’t make a record, though, you may need some other form of proof (the parish I’m at will accept a written statement from someone who witnessed it; yours may have different procedure). As a last resort you can be conditionally baptized, though since you’ve been baptized already it will have no effect beyond assuring the Church it’s happened.

 

[jmcrae]

Now, the time is coming for the RCIA administrators to verify baptism. I have no record, and the whole past situation has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. I don’t know what to do; do I push forward and stand firm on my previous undocumented baptism? Do I elect to get properly baptized as part of the program? It’s a major roadblock in my spiritual life. Advice is appreciated.

Simply tell your RCIA coordinators the simple truth - that you were baptized in an AOG assembly at the age of eight, you didn’t get a certificate, and the person who baptized you is no longer working in paid ministry. They will take it from there.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

The only reasonable thing to do is to be baptized conditionally. This is precisely what conditional baptisms are for. Unlike what someone else wrote, this is permissible either at the Easter Vigil or some time before you receive the other sacraments.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Unlike what someone else wrote, this is permissible either at the Easter Vigil or some time before you receive the other sacraments.

Unfortunately, you appear to be misinformed about conditional baptism. The Church requires conditional baptisms to be conducted in private; therefore, they cannot take place within the celebration of the Paschal Vigil.

In any case, conditional baptism is only necessary if after diligent investigation there is some doubt as to the fact or validity of the OP’s baptism.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Without even documentation that it occurred, there is doubt about both.

Do you have a reference that requires conditional baptisms to be given in private? I’ve been to Easter Vigils where conditional baptism has been given. I don’t see why this would need to be done in private, legally or otherwise.

 

[Bookcat]

Unfortunately, you appear to be misinformed about conditional baptism. The Church requires conditional baptisms to be conducted in private; therefore, they cannot take place within the celebration of the Paschal Vigil.

Yes this is my recollection as well.

---

To the OP …I would certainly check into it well…make sure you were baptized correctly (some may use a different form …not sure??? …you can call the community you were with and see if the same minister is there and what he used back then…etc)

 

[jmcrae]

Without even documentation that it occurred, there is doubt about both.

If he remembers being there and having it done, the only thing missing is the documentation - the fact of it is known. If he can recall the precise location, the date, the name of the minister, and a witness who was there and also recalls the same facts, he could write his own baptismal certificate and have the witness sign it.

Do you have a reference that requires conditional baptisms to be given in private?

Is there no one who actually reads the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults? All of this information is contained in the text of the Rite. Everyone who is involved with RCIA - catechists, priests, sponsors, secretaries, and snack ladies - needs to sit down and read it straight through, before ever making contact with their first Inquirer.

I’ve been to Easter Vigils where conditional baptism has been given.

It was done incorrectly, in that case.

I don’t see why this would need to be done in private, legally or otherwise.

Because Conditional Reconciliation needs to accompany Conditional Baptism - and you don’t want to be doing that in public. But I suppose in the cases you witnessed, nobody even thought of Confession - or they decided it didn’t really matter.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

As it is a new rite, I suppose it’s only true in the novus ordo.

Does he remember for certain the words that particular man said for his particular baptism and what ceremony precisely took place? If not, there is doubt about either the matter or form, to say nothing of the intention. This is why it has always been customary to baptize most Protestant converts conditionally.

 

[jmcrae]

As it is a new rite, I suppose it’s only true in the novus ordo.

Not true - in the old Rite, conditional Confession and conditional Baptism were both done privately, and at the same time - but back then, it was for all converts, regardless of their background; not just for those whose baptism was in doubt.

Does he remember for certain the words that particular man said for his particular baptism and what ceremony precisely took place? If not, there is doubt about either the matter or form, to say nothing of the intention. This is why it has always been customary to baptize most Protestant converts conditionally.

Only those who don’t keep records - “main stream” Protestants, who normally have Baptismal records, are received by Profession of Faith, with First Reconciliation, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion taking place close together.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Without even documentation that it occurred, there is doubt about both.

Do you have a reference that requires conditional baptisms to be given in private? I’ve been to Easter Vigils where conditional baptism has been given. I don’t see why this would need to be done in private, legally or otherwise.

From the National Statutes for the Catechumenate (National Conference of Catholic Bishops, 1986):

1. There may be a reasonable and prudent doubt concerning the baptism of such Christians which cannot be resolved after serious investigation into the fact and/or validity of baptism, namely, to ascertain whether the person was baptized with water and with the Trinitarian formula, and whether the minister and the recipient of the sacrament had the proper requisite intentions. If conditional baptism then seems necessary, this must be celebrated privately rather than at a public liturgical assembly of the community and with only those limited rites which the diocesan bishop determines. The reception into full communion should take place later at the Sunday Eucharist of the community.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Without even documentation that it occurred, there is doubt about both.

The Church has provisions for these situations. Although I don’t know if baptisms administered by the Assemblies of God are valid I’m sure the Church does. As for doubts about the fact, the Church will often accept the testimony of witnesses to the baptism. It isn’t cut and dried simply due to lack of a baptism certificate. The Church is usually keen to check out the situation fully before deciding conditional baptism is the answer.

Do you have a reference that requires conditional baptisms to be given in private?

Yes, it’s there for everyone to see in the Roman Ritual: Christian Initiation.

I’ve been to Easter Vigils where conditional baptism has been given.

Perhaps you have been witness to a liturgical abuse.

I don’t see why this would need to be done in private, legally or otherwise.

Because that’s what the Church requires.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Not true - in the old Rite, conditional Confession and conditional Baptism were both done privately, and at the same time

As I said, I’ve seen this done in the Easter Vigil, and it was at a traditional Mass. My understanding is that conditional confession would always follow conditional baptism.

but back then, it was for all converts, regardless of their background; not just for those whose baptism was in doubt.

That was never what was supposed to be done, even if some places may have indiscriminately applied the Sacrament. The difference is that today, on account of a spirit of false oecumenism, many people shy away from conditional baptisms even when there is doubt, however small. If there is any real doubt, the Sacrament is to be conferred conditionally. That is the whole purpose of conditional Baptism. Better safe than sorry…

 

[IntegraCatholic]

The Church has provisions for these situations. Although I don’t know if baptisms administered by the Assemblies of God are valid I’m sure the Church does. As for doubts about the fact, the Church will often accept the testimony of witnesses to the baptism. It isn’t cut and dried simply due to lack of a baptism certificate. The Church is usually keen to check out the situation fully before deciding conditional baptism is the answer.

My comment on this is there for everyone to see (and also happens to be included in this thread):

Does he remember for certain the words that particular man said for his particular baptism and what ceremony precisely took place? If not, there is doubt about either the matter or form, to say nothing of the intention. This is why it has always been customary to baptize most Protestant converts conditionally.

 

[jmcrae]

As I said, I’ve seen this done in the Easter Vigil, and it was at a traditional Mass.

“Traditional” meaning, what? (The Tridentine form doesn’t have the Easter Vigil, as far as I know.)

My understanding is that conditional confession would always follow conditional baptism.

This would be an excellent reason not to have Conditional Baptism at the Easter Vigil, which includes all three Initiation Sacraments at the same time. - the person would be receiving Confirmation and First Holy Communion before he has any opportunity to go to Confession (unless they interrupt the Mass right after the Baptism and have the candidates go to Confession in the middle of Mass - I don’t consider that very likely) - meaning that, if his original baptism was, in fact, valid, then he is receiving Confirmation and First Holy Communion without yet being in a state of grace.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

My comment on this is there for everyone to see (and also happens to be included in this thread):

A lot of Protestant ecclesial communities have the correct intent, form and matter therefore their baptisms are valid. The Church administers conditional baptism in two circumstances:

After diligent enquiries there is doubt concerning -

1. 
   *]the fact that the baptism actually happened;
   *]the validity of the baptism administered.
   
   Because of these doubts no one can know the actual effect of a conditional baptism for a particular person. If the person had in the past been validly baptised the conditional baptism will have no effect because we can only be baptised once. If the person hadn’t been baptised in the past, the conditional baptism will baptise the person.
   
   If the conditional baptism baptises the individual they will be cleansed of original sin and all personal sins committed. If the conditional baptism does not baptise the individual they are not cleansed of their personal sins.
   
   Therefore, after conditional baptism the individual may be cleansed of all their personal sins or they may be in a state of mortal sin. We have no way of knowing. That is why a person who has received conditional baptism needs to go to confession; inform the confessor of their circumstances; make an integral confession; the priest will give them a conditional absolution.
   
   Consequently, conditional baptism cannot be administered during the Paschal Vigil. First, the Church states that conditional baptism must be administered privately. Second, if a person received conditional baptism at the Paschal Vigil they may go on to receive Confirmation and Holy Communion while being in a state of mortal sin.