Concerns with a Marion Prayer....

[JRKH]

In discussing the subject of Praying to Saints on another board, one of the members brought up the “Hail Holy Queen” as an example of, what he believes to be blasphemy.

Frankly I am not comfortable with this prayer either as I feel there are things said in it that go too far in honoring Mary. For this reason I have just simply avoided using this prayer and left it at that. However, now that it ahs been specifically pointed out to me as I was defending the faith, I feel I need to address these issues.
Therefore, as always, I come to the learned folks here. In the Prayer below I have highlighted the terms or phrases that seem problematic to me, and I’m sure other Christians as well. Would you good people please comment on these and, if possible, link to Church documents that would support the proper understanding of these terms in relation to Mary?

‘Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary
Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.’

God is our Life and Christ is our Hope. Why this reference to Mary?
It is not Mary’s Job to “show us” Jesus, rather we will meet with Him who is our Hope directly at death.
The rest of the prayer is, as is common, a request for Mary to pray for us. But these specific points are problematic to me, and naturally to others - especially non-catholic Christians.

Any helpful (name removed by moderator)ut is appreciated.

Peace
James

 

[curlycool89]

'Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope.

English really is a terrible language because it can be so ambiguous. Luckily, I’m an engineer and I can use math . So, we’ll use the distributive property:
(Mother)*( of Mercy + our life + our sweetness + our hope)

And what I mean by that, is that Mary is the Mother of Mercy, Mother of our life, Mother of our Sweetness, and Mother of our hope (aka, they all refer to Jesus). Fr. Vincent explained it here.

Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

I would think that this would just be to emphasize Mary as the Mother of God. We might have someone more knowledgeable here who can explain the origin of the line though.

 

[Mumbles140]

Building off of Curly’s response…

Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

1. Remember that an advocate is someone who defends you, ‘goes to bat for you’, someone who supports your causes. This is precisely Mary’s function when we ask her to intercede for us as she did in Cana.
2. Mary’s heart is full of mercy and compassion, and we appeal to that by asking her to look at our intentions purely out of that mercy
3. Just like asking Mary to prayer for us ‘now and forever, but particularly at the hour of our death’, we are asking for her continued aide in helping us achieve our souls’ purposes - eternal life in Heaven. I have always believed that ‘our exile’ referred to the state of sin brought on by Adam and Eve and seen by their exile from Eden, the Earthly Paradise. We are asking Mary to continue praying and interceding for us as we pass (hopefully) from this earthly life into Heaven (after a likely stay in Purgatory!)

This is all based off of how I view the words, and there is no sort of Church teaching in my response, unless it is purely coincidental, but it was a prayer I thought about too and determined it really is a beautiful prayer asking for Mary’s prayers and intercessions.

 

[SonCatcher]

Curly,
Thanks for Fr Vincent’s quote. I never found that phrase particularly difficult but the explanation is still quite helpful. (Personally, I would have used an Integral, rather than multiplication but we must keep things simple, mustn’t we )

Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

I’ve always taken “advocate” in the sense that Mary (along with any/all other Saints) may pray to God on our behalf.

“Eyes of mercy” refers to her perfected state in Heaven. She can no longer be even temptedto condescend to us.

“Our exile” refers plainly to the time we spend on this Earth (and Purgatory, if needed).

“Show unto us … Jesus.” I would guess that every person in Heaven would direct others to God always and never to themselves or another. When we see Mary, she will tell us about her son. She is the only one in Heaven to have that unique connection with her Creator.

 

[germys9]

'Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope.

As others explained, by saying these words you can be referring to Jesus. But let’s assume they were directed toward Mary. Would God be offended? As a father, if one of my kids said to their brother, sister, or mother, “You are my life, my sweetness, and my hope”, I would be moved, not upset that they were honoring their family too much. God is a loving father, not a glory hog.

It’s understood that Mary is not our life in the sense that she causes our life as God does, or our sweetness in the sense that God is not the ultimate sweetness, or our hope in the sense that she is our final hope. Just as you may say, “My kids are my life” or “My wife is my inspiration.” You know what you mean and so does God…the same when you say this prayer.

It is not Mary’s Job to “show us” Jesus, rather we will meet with Him who is our Hope directly at death.

Of course it is her “job” in the sense that it is her vocation that she humbly accepted. Didn’t she “show us” Jesus by bringing him into the world? If you are a parent or husband, isn’t it your “job” to show your kids/wife Jesus? And we meet directly with him NOW when we receive the Eucharist…

 

[basinite]

You have to remember that these ancient prayers of ours were originally written and said in Latin. Like the other guy said, “sometimes the English is translated a little clumsy.”

English:

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope.

Latin:

Salve, Regina, Mater misericordiae, vita, dulcedo et spes nostra, salve.

(Hail! Queen. Hail! Mother of mercy, life, sweetness and hope of ours.)

As you can see the Latin does a way better job of showing you that Mary is not our hope, but the Mother of our hope, who is of course Jesus.

 

[clmowry]

Yep. What they said.

Everything about Mary points us towards Jesus.

Including this prayer.

Chuck

 

[JRKH]

You have to remember that these ancient prayers of ours were originally written and said in Latin. Like the other guy said, “sometimes the English is translated a little clumsy.”

English:

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope.

Latin:

Salve, Regina, Mater misericordiae, vita, dulcedo et spes nostra, salve.

(Hail! Queen. Hail! Mother of mercy, life, sweetness and hope of ours.)

As you can see the Latin does a way better job of showing you that Mary is not our hope, but the Mother of our hope, who is of course Jesus.

Thanks to everyone who answered. Discussing this is VERY helpful.

I think that in a sense, the answer above is the most helpful for it points up the poor translation that can VERY easily cause the prayer to be understood wrong. Especially among the many catholics who, like me, were poorly catechized in school. Let me try ot explain:

Hail Holy Queen - fine so far except that “holy” does not apperr in the latin
Mother of Mercy - The queen is the mother of Mercy - also fine, except that this can be understood as the queen being either the mother of the one who grants mercy or the one who originates the mercy. In this case of course we should read it as the former, and not the latter. I’m just playing devils advocate here…
our life, our sweetness and our hope. - The use of the term “our” here and not preceding “mercy” seems to seperate the two in a way not seen in the latin. It causes these to appear as something seperate from “mercy” and to refer back to the subject, Mary. Additionally the fact that life, sweetness and hope are NOT capitalized, while “mercy” is, also seems to seperate them and cause the latter terms to be descriptions, not of Mercy, but of the subject, the Queen and Mother.

Do you see what I mean? Perhaps a better translation would be:

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of our Mercy, Life, Sweetness and Hope…

Peace
James

 

[TommyWommy]

I’ve heard this prayer said with an extra “Hail” placed before “our life, our sweetness and our hope” which seems to cancel out the idea that those words refer to Christ. In fact, I have a recorded version of the Rosary that says the prayer that way. Not sure if this is a blatent error, or just another valid way to say the prayer. In any case, it was explained to me that the prayer is making use of hyperbole.

 

[JRKH]

I’ve heard this prayer said with an extra “Hail” placed before “our life, our sweetness and our hope” which seems to cancel out the idea that those words refer to Christ. In fact, I have a recorded version of the Rosary that says the prayer that way. Not sure if this is a blatent error, or just another valid way to say the prayer. In any case, it was explained to me that the prayer is making use of hyperbole.

I have to say that I would not accept “hyperbole” as an acceptable explanation here.
In Worship, in Prayer, especially published/printed prayers. Care must be taken to assure that what is said is correct and can be understood to be correct.

To use “hyperbole” simply invites error and misunderstanding.
Among poorly catachized Catholics such hyperbole anc easily give wrong idea about how to properly venerate Mary and the saints. This, in turn can casue them to err in two ways. First by improper veneration, and second by possibly misrepresenting the proper marion veneration to others.
Among Non-catholic Christians, investigating Catholicism, such hyperbole can easily sound like improper veneration - i.e. worship - of Mary and cause them to recoil from further investigation of the faith.

Peace
James

 

[TommyWommy]

I have to say that I would not accept “hyperbole” as an acceptable explanation here.
In Worship, in Prayer, especially published/printed prayers. Care must be taken to assure that what is said is correct and can be understood to be correct.

To use “hyperbole” simply invites error and misunderstanding.
Among poorly catachized Catholics such hyperbole anc easily give wrong idea about how to properly venerate Mary and the saints. This, in turn can casue them to err in two ways. First by improper veneration, and second by possibly misrepresenting the proper marion veneration to others.
Among Non-catholic Christians, investigating Catholicism, such hyperbole can easily sound like improper veneration - i.e. worship - of Mary and cause them to recoil from further investigation of the faith.

Peace
James

The hyperbole explanation was provided on the Ask an Apologist forum several months ago. Also, I just discovered that adding an extra “hail” is apparently the UK version of the prayer.

 

[steve_b]

In the Prayer below I have highlighted the terms or phrases that seem problematic to me, and I’m sure other Christians as well. Would you good people please comment on these and, if possible, link to Church documents that would support the proper understanding of these terms in relation to Mary?

'Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope.

• Who is the King of Kings? Jesus…right? Who is His Mother? Mary. That makes Mary Queen Mother. BTW, Queen Mother is very Jewish and very biblical. Look up Gebirah.
• Who is ALL Mercy, Who is OUR life, Who is ALL sweetness and ALL hope? Jesus… right? Who is His mother? Mary. Therefore, she is mother of Mercy, life, hope etc etc.

so far so good?

JRKH:

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;

Were the children of the 1st EVE banished? Yes

Who is the new Adam? Jesus…right? Who is the new Eve? Mary. How you ask?

Read Rev 12: 1-17. Among other associations, It describes the dragon, and war with the woman, (Mary). Where else did that combination of emnity between the woman and the dragon take place in the bible? Gen 3:15. Gen and Rev, the beginning and ending books of the NT. Who was Gen 3:15 fortelling? The coming of Jesus through the woman, Mary.

Rev 12:17 (emphasis mine)
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman (Mary), and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring,(who are her offspring?) on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.( And who is this? )

the 1st Eve is considered the mother of all the living. Those are her offspring. The new Eve (Mary) is the mother of all the living in Christ, her son. Those are all of Mary’s offspring. That makes Mary my mother too.

JRKH:

To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Knowing who Mary and Jesus are to each other, what could possibly be wrong with THAT statement?

JRKH:

O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary
Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.’

Again, what could possibly be wrong with saying THAT?

JRKH:

God is our Life and Christ is our Hope. Why this reference to Mary?

Hopefully from the explanation above, you know the answer to that. Protestanrts are in the dark on this because they really don’t know scripture.

JRKH:

It is not Mary’s Job to “show us” Jesus, rather we will meet with Him who is our Hope directly at death.

Did Jesus come to us directly? NO. After Mary’s yes to the angel Gabriel, and 9 months of pregnancy, Jesus came to the world THROUGH Mary His mother. Who’s plan is that? God’s. Who was the first to show the world Jesus? Mary.

As an aside,

• What do you call someone you go through to get to others?
• Who was the first to show the world, Jesus, the “Word of God” incarnate? Mary

JRKH:

The rest of the prayer is, as is common, a request for Mary to pray for us. But these specific points are problematic to me, and naturally to others - especially non-catholic Christians.

Any helpful (name removed by moderator)ut is appreciated.

Peace
James

The prayer is problematical for non-Catholics because they don’t know scripture. Therefore don’t be led by the blind. This is your opportunity to educate and shed light on them. Help them to see.

 

[JRKH]

Steve,
Thank you for your explanation.
It is helpful in showing how much “Hyperbole”, is actually used in the prayer, which explains why I am so uncomfortable with it.

• Who is the King of Kings? Jesus…right? Who is His Mother? Mary. That makes Mary Queen Mother. BTW, Queen Mother is very Jewish and very biblical. Look up Gebirah.
• Who is ALL Mercy, Who is OUR life, Who is ALL sweetness and ALL hope? Jesus… right? Who is His mother? Mary. Therefore, she is mother of Mercy, life, hope etc etc.

so far so good?

If you looked at my later posts you will see that the main problem stems from how the line, “'Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope.”, is puctuated. I covered this in the post following Basinite’s.

Were the children of the 1st EVE banished? Yes

Who is the new Adam? Jesus…right? Who is the new Eve? Mary. How you ask?

Read Rev 12: 1-17. Among other associations, It describes the dragon, and war with the woman, (Mary). Where else did that combination of emnity between the woman and the dragon take place in the bible? Gen 3:15. Gen and Rev, the beginning and ending books of the NT. Who was Gen 3:15 fortelling? The coming of Jesus through the woman, Mary.

Rev 12:17 (emphasis mine)
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman (Mary), and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring,(who are her offspring?) on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.( And who is this? )

the 1st Eve is considered the mother of all the living. Those are her offspring. The new Eve (Mary) is the mother of all the living in Christ, her son. Those are all of Mary’s offspring. That makes Mary my mother too.

Knowing who Mary and Jesus are to each other, what could possibly be wrong with THAT statement?

Again, what could possibly be wrong with saying THAT?

Hopefully from the explanation above, you know the answer to that. Protestanrts are in the dark on this because they really don’t know scripture.

You seem to be under the impression that I had more problems with this prayer than is the case. As I said in my OP, I highlighted (Bolded) the terms and phrases that I had problems with. None of these were thus highlighted therefore I saw no particular problem with them.

Did Jesus come to us directly? NO. After Mary’s yes to the angel Gabriel, and 9 months of pregnancy, Jesus came to the world THROUGH Mary His mother. Who’s plan is that? God’s. Who was the first to show the world Jesus? Mary.

This is all fine and good and I have no problem with this however this has nothing to do with the prayer. The prayer does not speak to Christ’s birth but to our death. At that time, we will not see Mary first, but will see Christ seated in Judgement. Mary will not “show us Christ”, rather Christ will come to us directly.

As an aside,

• What do you call someone you go through to get to others?
• Who was the first to show the world, Jesus, the “Word of God” incarnate? Mary

Again, I have no problem with Mary advocating for us her spiritual children. Nor could/would I deny that Mary first “showed the world” Jesus. If that were what the prayer said, there would be no problem, for me or for others.

The prayer is problematical for non-Catholics because they don’t know scripture. Therefore don’t be led by the blind. This is your opportunity to educate and shed light on them. Help them to see.

Obviously the prayer is not problematic only for non-Catholics, since I am Catholic and have a problem with it. In this case it is difficult to defend something that I find problematical myself. However this thread has been very helpful to me.

It appears overall that the problems stem from two sources.
First is a somewhat poor translation of the Latin to the English and punctuation that can lead to confusion.
Second is the use of “Hyperbole” which in essence translates to - not saying with precision what you truly mean.

Hyperbole might be easily recognizable in some instances like, “it was raining cats and dogs”, or it might be easily recognizable in the spoken words by inflection or facial expression, but it is easily lost when something is written down and passed on through generations until it becomes recited by rote in large groups.

Thus it is that in prayer, hyperbole is a dangerous thing. Privately we can certainly say things between our heart and God’s that might sound wrong, but he and we know, privately, what is meant. Publicaly is another matter. Publically, Hyperbole needs to be kept to a minimum.

Just my opinion.

I think that I shall have to review the prayer in my mind, playing with teh phrasing and inflection to see if I can acheive a comfort level balancing the true faith and the hyperbole.

Peace
James

 

[steve_b]

Steve,
Thank you for your explanation.
It is helpful in showing how much “Hyperbole”, is actually used in the prayer, which explains why I am so uncomfortable with it.

Just curious, what words in the prayer do you regard as hyperbole?

JRKH:

If you looked at my later posts you will see that the main problem stems from how the line, “'Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope.”, is puctuated. I covered this in the post following Basinite’s.

I saw the post. I disagree that this is a punctuation or translation problem.

JRKH:

You seem to be under the impression that I had more problems with this prayer than is the case. As I said in my OP, I highlighted (Bolded) the terms and phrases that I had problems with. None of these were thus highlighted therefore I saw no particular problem with them.

So far, you haven’t taken issue with my explanation to your highlighted texts either… Therefore the issue must be solved

JRKH:

This is all fine and good and I have no problem with this however this has nothing to do with the prayer. The prayer does not speak to Christ’s birth but to our death. At that time, we will not see Mary first, but will see Christ seated in Judgement. Mary will not “show us Christ”, rather Christ will come to us directly.

Who says you won’t see Mary? You’ll see EVERYONE!!! Now if one thinks they’re going to hell, well then, that’s a different story.

JRKH:

Again, I have no problem with Mary advocating for us her spiritual children. Nor could/would I deny that Mary first “showed the world” Jesus. If that were what the prayer said, there would be no problem, for me or for others.

When does her advocacy end? When does her interest in you, end?

JRKH:

Obviously the prayer is not problematic only for non-Catholics, since I am Catholic and have a problem with it.

You say you’re a revert. Revert from what?

JRKH:

In this case it is difficult to defend something that I find problematical myself.

You can’t defend what you don’t know.

JRKH:

It appears overall that the problems stem from two sources.
First is a somewhat poor translation of the Latin to the English and punctuation that can lead to confusion.
Second is the use of “Hyperbole” which in essence translates to - not saying with precision what you truly mean.

Give examples from the prayer re: translation, punctuation, and hyperbole. What are we not meaning when reciting the prayer?

JRKH:

Hyperbole might be easily recognizable in some instances like, “it was raining cats and dogs”, or it might be easily recognizable in the spoken words by inflection or facial expression, but it is easily lost when something is written down and passed on through generations until it becomes recited by rote in large groups.

Give examples from the prayer that is wrong theology

JRKH:

Thus it is that in prayer, hyperbole is a dangerous thing. Privately we can certainly say things between our heart and God’s that might sound wrong, but he and we know, privately, what is meant. Publicaly is another matter. Publically, Hyperbole needs to be kept to a minimum.

Just my opinion.

Again, give specific examples from the prayer of what you mean.

 

[Sandalwood]

this thread is very helpful to me. I had the same issues as the OP. Thank you for all the well thought responses!

 

[JRKH]

I saw the post. I disagree that this is a punctuation or translation problem.

You certainly can be correct here so long as, a) your theological grounding is sufficient to allow you to see/read the sentence properly and b) the use of this type prayer language is spiritually acceptable and uplifing.

So far, you haven’t taken issue with my explanation to your highlighted texts either… Therefore the issue must be solved

Yes, for the most part it is.
I have to say that I am still not particulalry comfortable with the prayer, but that is just me.

Who says you won’t see Mary? You’ll see EVERYONE!!! Now if one thinks they’re going to hell, well then, that’s a different story.

This statement is in error to my understanding of our particular judgement at death. True we will see the heavenly host, if we pass into heaven, but before that point, we will see Jesus for judgement. Therefore the request in the prayer, “after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus”, seems wrongheaded in my opinion, I repeat, In My Opinion, since we will see Jesus first and in the natural couse of things.
I mean really, If I don’t ask Mary to show me Jesus will He not come??

When does her advocacy end? When does her interest in you, end?

Her advocacy would end at the moment of death and Judgement for after that there is no longer a need or purpose to an advocate. You are either in or out. Those in stay in and those out stay out.

You say you’re a revert. Revert from what?

I was born Catholic and spent some 35 years wandering in a theological desert. Never embraced any other creed specifically.

You can’t defend what you don’t know.

Very True which is why I asked.

Give examples from the prayer re: translation, punctuation, and hyperbole. What are we not meaning when reciting the prayer?
Give examples from the prayer that is wrong theology
Again, give specific examples from the prayer of what you mean.

What you ask here is difficult to give for a couple of reasons. One is that I am not a protestant who rejects Marion devotion etc. and after having some of the things explained I no longer have these concerns/objections, particularly from the theological standpoint. Secondly, it isn’t as if there is something that is a clear cut example. Perhaps the best example of Hyperbole would be the aforementioned line about Mary showing us Jesus. It is obvious that this is something not true in how we understand the theology of our Judgement.
As for punctuation etc, I already covered this in the earlier post.

Finally, I would not feel comfortable trying to express any objections that a Protestant might have since, as you said earlier, one cannot defend what one does not know.

But - Obviously I am not the only person to have this concern with the “Hail Holy Queen”. Sandalwood had the same concerns. Thanks Sandalwood for letting me know that I’m not alone here.

As I mentioned in my OP, this subject came up as part of a discussion on another NC website. It came up in connection with the argument that “praying to saints is asking them to intercede for us”. The Hail Holy Queen is pretty verbose for simply asking someone to pray for us.

Again I thank everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut.
Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Steveb and any others interested…

After some deliberation on the matter I have decided to post what I consider to be hyperbole in the prayer under discussion. Before I do though I want a couple of things clearly understood. Prayer, in the broad use of the term, is a VERY personal matter between ones heart and soul and God. What might seem excesive to one might not to another. Therefore, in reading what follows here, please recognize that it comes from my own personal feelings on what is appropriate in my prayerlife.
Others might not fell this same way which is fine.

Now to the Prayer itself:

**Hail Holy Queen, ** - No Problem
**Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope. ** - We do not mean literally that Mary is the Mother of these things. Rather she is the Mother of He who physically embodies these things. Therefore the statement is not literally correct as written. The literally correct version would be Mother of Christ, or Mother of God.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
Frankly I reject this description of myself or others on the road toward salvation. Such a statement might have been accurate before Christ, but not after, for now we are not banished, but rather redeemed.
To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Again, I reject this description of our circumstance. I certainly would not describe my life as one of “mourning and weeping” nor do I look about me and see a “valley of tears”. While we all will have points in our lives where this may be accurate, times of deep sorrow and trial, such a statement, in a general use prayer, will likely be inaccurate far more than it will be accurate.
Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us - No problem here.
and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. - I covered this one earlier. It is inaccurate for we will see Jesus at death regardless. It is not up to Mary to “show” Him to us. It is a pointless request.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary
Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.'

• No problem with this.

Now compare the verbosity above with the much more touching and beautiful Hail Mary.
Hail Mary, full of grace, The Lord is with Thee - Mary certainly was and is full of Grace the same as all who are "with the Lord, in the presence of the Beatific vision.
Blessed art thou among women and Blessed is the Womb of thy Womb Jesus - Again, perfectly accurate, cleanly said, with no hyperbole. Mary was indeed blessed as was Her offspring.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, - Yup, that’s her to a tee.
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen - Simple straighforward request - such as we might ask any of our friends.

In the Hail Mary there is nothing overstated. Just simple expressive descriptions of Mary that would be easily understood even IF they were not taken directly from the Bible. Then these are followed with the equally simple request that Mary pray (intercede) for us.

One other thing I would like to address in the, “Hail Holy Queen”, as far as sentence structure goes, and I know that Steve disagrees with this, but I still feel that the opening sentance is poorly constructed AND, perhaps more importantly, is poorly recited. The reason that I say this is because when reciting the prayer there is a pronounced pause between “Mother of Mercy” and “our life our sweetness and our hope”. This pause, along with the fact that “our” is not used preceding “Mercy” makes it sound as though life, sweetness and hope are attributed to Mary rather than to the one who she is mother of.
Again, this is just how I hear it when it is recited.

Now - in closing, I wish to repeat that the above is why I am not comfortable with the Hail Holy Queen. Others may disagree with this viewpoint and, of course, are free to do so.

Personally I will stick with the hail Mary.

peace
James

 

[steve_b]

Now to the Prayer itself:

• **Hail Holy Queen, **- No Problem
• **Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope. **- We do not mean literally that Mary is the Mother of these things. Rather she is the Mother of He who physically embodies these things. Therefore the statement is not literally correct as written. The literally correct version would be Mother of Christ, or Mother of God.

Mary’s yes (fiat), to the angel Gabriel, ushered in the New will and Testament of God for the world. Therefore, being the mother of God, she is most certainly by definition, the mother (literally not figuratively) of our life, our sweetness and our hope.
j:

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
Frankly I reject this description of myself or others on the road toward salvation. Such a statement might have been accurate before Christ, but not after, for now we are not banished, but rather redeemed.

While we can still fog a mirror, we can screw up. Banishment is still possible. The process of salvation doesn’t end until we die. That’s why Paul taught perseverence till the end. Therefore, while we’re still on this side of the grass, we suffer from the effects of the fall.
j:

To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Again, I reject this description of our circumstance. I certainly would not describe my life as one of “mourning and weeping” nor do I look about me and see a “valley of tears”. While we all will have points in our lives where this may be accurate, times of deep sorrow and trial, such a statement, in a general use prayer, will likely be inaccurate far more than it will be accurate.

Are you somehow immune from the effects of original sin?
j:

Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us - No problem here.

and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. - I covered this one earlier. It is inaccurate for we will see Jesus at death regardless. It is not up to Mary to “show” Him to us. It is a pointless request.

in your world, mom stops being mom at some point? Well, Mary doesn’t stop being mother to all those in Christ, anymore than she stops being the mother of God. She will be that for all eternity.
j:

O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary
Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.'

• No problem with this.

Now compare the verbosity above with the much more touching and beautiful Hail Mary.

Hail Mary, full of grace, The Lord is with Thee - Mary certainly was and is full of Grace the same as all who are "with the Lord, in the presence of the Beatific vision.

Mary is full of grace permanently from her very conception. She had no sin in her. Do you believe that?

Re: Us. Those in heaven will be at that time full of grace also.
j:

Blessed art thou among women and Blessed is the fruit of thy Womb Jesus - Again, perfectly accurate, cleanly said, with no hyperbole. Mary was indeed blessed as was Her offspring.

When you’re already the mother of God, the phrases used in the Hail Holy Queen prayer aren’t hyperbole.
j:

Holy Mary, Mother of God, - Yup, that’s her to a tee.
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen - Simple straighforward request - such as we might ask any of our friends.

You don’t have issue with now and at the hour of our death, so why did you stress over the phrase in the Hail Holy Queen "and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus"

You don’t think Mary the mother of God, can do that?
j:

In the Hail Mary there is nothing overstated. Just simple expressive descriptions of Mary that would be easily understood even IF they were not taken directly from the Bible. Then these are followed with the equally simple request that Mary pray (intercede) for us.

One other thing I would like to address in the, “Hail Holy Queen”, as far as sentence structure goes, and I know that Steve disagrees with this, but I still feel that the opening sentance is poorly constructed AND, perhaps more importantly, is poorly recited. The reason that I say this is because when reciting the prayer there is a pronounced pause between “Mother of Mercy” and “our life our sweetness and our hope”. This pause, along with the fact that “our” is not used preceding “Mercy” makes it sound as though life, sweetness and hope are attributed to Mary rather than to the one who she is mother of.
Again, this is just how I hear it when it is recited.

You’re having problems because you’re still suffering from the unbelief of Protestants and what they taught you
j:

Now - in closing, I wish to repeat that the above is why I am not comfortable with the Hail Holy Queen. Others may disagree with this viewpoint and, of course, are free to do so.

Personally I will stick with the hail Mary.

peace
James

She will bring you back fully to the faith

 

[Sandalwood]

Steveb and any others interested…

After some deliberation on the matter I have decided to post what I consider to be hyperbole in the prayer under discussion. Before I do though I want a couple of things clearly understood. Prayer, in the broad use of the term, is a VERY personal matter between ones heart and soul and God. What might seem excesive to one might not to another. Therefore, in reading what follows here, please recognize that it comes from my own personal feelings on what is appropriate in my prayerlife.
Others might not fell this same way which is fine.

Now to the Prayer itself:

**Hail Holy Queen, ** - No Problem
**Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope. ** - We do not mean literally that Mary is the Mother of these things. Rather she is the Mother of He who physically embodies these things. Therefore the statement is not literally correct as written. The literally correct version would be Mother of Christ, or Mother of God.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
Frankly I reject this description of myself or others on the road toward salvation. Such a statement might have been accurate before Christ, but not after, for now we are not banished, but rather redeemed.
To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Again, I reject this description of our circumstance. I certainly would not describe my life as one of “mourning and weeping” nor do I look about me and see a “valley of tears”. While we all will have points in our lives where this may be accurate, times of deep sorrow and trial, such a statement, in a general use prayer, will likely be inaccurate far more than it will be accurate.
Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us - No problem here.
and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. - I covered this one earlier. It is inaccurate for we will see Jesus at death regardless. It is not up to Mary to “show” Him to us. It is a pointless request.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary
Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.'

• No problem with this.

Now compare the verbosity above with the much more touching and beautiful Hail Mary.
Hail Mary, full of grace, The Lord is with Thee - Mary certainly was and is full of Grace the same as all who are "with the Lord, in the presence of the Beatific vision.
Blessed art thou among women and Blessed is the Womb of thy Womb Jesus - Again, perfectly accurate, cleanly said, with no hyperbole. Mary was indeed blessed as was Her offspring.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, - Yup, that’s her to a tee.
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen - Simple straighforward request - such as we might ask any of our friends.

In the Hail Mary there is nothing overstated. Just simple expressive descriptions of Mary that would be easily understood even IF they were not taken directly from the Bible. Then these are followed with the equally simple request that Mary pray (intercede) for us.

One other thing I would like to address in the, “Hail Holy Queen”, as far as sentence structure goes, and I know that Steve disagrees with this, but I still feel that the opening sentance is poorly constructed AND, perhaps more importantly, is poorly recited. The reason that I say this is because when reciting the prayer there is a pronounced pause between “Mother of Mercy” and “our life our sweetness and our hope”. This pause, along with the fact that “our” is not used preceding “Mercy” makes it sound as though life, sweetness and hope are attributed to Mary rather than to the one who she is mother of.
Again, this is just how I hear it when it is recited.

Now - in closing, I wish to repeat that the above is why I am not comfortable with the Hail Holy Queen. Others may disagree with this viewpoint and, of course, are free to do so.

Personally I will stick with the hail Mary.

peace
James

beautifully written James. You wrote what I feel and fail to put into words. Thank you for understanding how I feel and explaining so clearly what I think

 

[JRKH]

See - I told you that we would disagree - - - :thumbsup:

Mary’s yes (fiat), to the angel Gabriel, ushered in the New will and Testament of God for the world. Therefore, being the mother of God, she is most certainly by definition, the mother (literally not figuratively) of our life, our sweetness and our hope.

By this reasoning then, Hitler’s mother (a good catholic woman) was teh mother of the Holocaust.
I know - a rediculous example, but at the same time it demonstrates how tenuous it is to make such connections as are made in the prayer.

While we can still fog a mirror, we can screw up. Banishment is still possible. The process of salvation doesn’t end until we die. That’s why Paul taught perseverence till the end. Therefore, while we’re still on this side of the grass, we suffer from the effects of the fall.

Ah - but “banishment is still possible” in NOT what is said in the prayer. It specifically calls us (including the one praying) “banished children of Eve”
I hardly think that a person, praying this prayer, is in the presnet tense, banished. Perhaps in the future one CAN lose their faith and be banished, but when that occurs it is unlikely that such a one will be praying (not just reciting) this prayer.

Are you somehow immune from the effects of original sin?

I don’t see the connection. Am I tempted? Yes. Do I sin? Yes.
But do I live “mournful and weeping” in a “valley of tears”? No.
Why? Because Christ has reached down and lifted me out of this valley. He has replaced my mourning and weeping with great joy.
And - I can say this while at the same time, caring for my Dear and Precious Wife who has Stage 6 Alzheimer’s.

in your world, mom stops being mom at some point? Well, Mary doesn’t stop being mother to all those in Christ, anymore than she stops being the mother of God. She will be that for all eternity.

You make some very interesting connections I must say. Once you are grown, do you still rely on your mother to “show” things to you? Of course not. As a grown person you are responsible for your own actions. If you do wrong and are hauled in for judgement, it isn’t your mother who will show you the judge…
Mary will be our mother for all eternity, but that does not mean she is responsible to “show us” Jesus at our death.

Mary is full of grace permanently from her very conception. She had no sin in her. Do you believe that?

Of course I believe that which is why I love the “Hail Mary”

When you’re already the mother of God, the phrases used in the Hail Holy Queen prayer aren’t hyperbole.

In your opinion. I see it differently - - See, I told you we would disagree.

You don’t have issue with now and at the hour of our death, so why did you stress over the phrase in the Hail Holy Queen "and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus"

I didn’t say I “stress” over anything. I merely said that Mary will not be the one to “show us Jesus”. Jesus will come to judge us entirely without Mary’s intercesion.
The request in the Hail Mary is simply for her prayers, and intercession on our behalf.

You don’t think Mary the mother of God, can do that?

Mary can do whatever God empowers her to do.

You’re having problems because you’re still suffering from the unbelief of Protestants and what they taught you

Not so since I was never “taught” by any protestants. This is a rather bold statemnt from someone who only knows me from a few brief exhanges on the internet.

She will bring you back fully to the faith

That is a highly presumptuous and insulting comment. :tsktsk:
The fact that I do not fully agree with you, or choose to pray in precisely the same way as you do, in no way means that I am somehow not “fully (in) the faith”.
This kind of judgemental comment is precisely why I hesitated to respond to your request for examples in the first place.

Now - having gotten that off my chest, let me say that I harbor no ill will toward you and hope that you harbor none toward me. I have not questioned you faithfulness and I hope that you will refrain in the future from questioning mine.

Peace
James