Concerns with the charismatic renewal at FUS

[Pax_et_Caritas]

And what heresy is the CR founded on?!
See, the gifts of the spirit were present in the Church LONG before Pentecostalism. They simply began to surface more forcefully now.

Sorry for me being so brief; I would really like to engage with you in a serious discussion, but I’m in a tight spot with time right now, and don’t know if I’ll have enough of it to respond to your posts.

Just read E. Tardif or J. Manjackal.

In Christ.

Regarding the underlined part: What about the “baptism in the spirit” which is basically the 8th sacrament communicated by laymen? Laymen pray over each other and, even Priests, and supposedly comminicate this sacrament. This is basically presented as the sacrament of sacrament in the charismatic movement, yet it has no place in Catholicism. Catholicism has seven sacraments, not eight.

This error is simply a continuation of the misunderstanding originating with the Protestants who don’t realize that when the Bible speaks of “baptism in the Spirit” it is referring to confirmation, which is one of the seven sacraments of the Church.

Also, the charismatic movement is a mingling of heretics and Catholics - fire and water, Christ and Belial. Catholics are to have nothing to do with heretics, as the Bible tells us. “A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment” (Titus 3:10-11).

Charismatics not only do not avoid heretics, they invite them to their meetings and give them pride of place, thereby communicating with their wicked works.

2 Jonn 1:10-11: “If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into thy house, nor say to him, God speed you; for he that saith to him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works.”

Not only do Charismatic regularly violate these verses, but they even promote the novelties of the heretics. Like I said, “baptism of the spirit” by which a laymen (including a heretic) lays hands on someone to communicate the spirit is not Catholic, but is novelty originating in Protestantism. Yet this is one of the foundational aspects of the charismatic movement. This psuedo sacrament is said to be how one receives the “gifts”. More emphasis is placed on this false sacrament than on the real sacraments. A clear sign that it is not of the Holy Ghost.

A believe that a spirit might be communicated through this heretical novelty, but certainly not the Holy Spirit.

 

[VociMike]

It is really obvious where you are coming from in your vehement distaste for the CR, Voci-Mike. Attacks on their worship are on the tip of your tongue, ready to find loopholes of your own to denigrate a lawful liturgy.

Why are nuptial masses not included in your denigration? Should a bride and groom always use GC as pride of place in a ceremony that is to be filled with joyful music? I have yet to attend a single wedding and observe that GC is used therein. For that matter, I have yet to attend a funeral liturgy where GC is used. Many parishes have funeral choirs, and they give voluntarily of their time to make the liturgy meaningful for those who suffer untold grief. These volunteers are for the most part untrained in anything else but regular hymns.

What you ask (and seem to DEMAND) is that all liturgies follow V-II and use GC, irrespective of the abilities and talents of those serving in the music ministry. Kinda like excess zeal, out of balance.

You seem either unable or determined not to understand my point, much less address it. Instead you descend to ad hominem.

 

[ac_claire]

No, I have a point anyway. My point is that the Holy Spirit, through Vatican II, called for Gregorian chant to have pride of place in the Roman rite. And I do not see the Charismatic Renewal making any effort to give chant that pride of place.

Fine! I concede that you are (more or less) correct on this point.
Doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit can’t be involved in the CR.

And please don’t muddy the waters with statements of absolutes about never using chant, or mandating chant. Pride of place is called for, and the CR makes no effort to give chant that pride of place, and if the CR is led by the Holy Spirit then this is inexplicable.

How is making a valid point “muddying the waters” with absolutes…?? Your entire argument is a statement of absolutes!

You say the logic doesn’t follow, but you don’t demonstrate it. Assertions are not proof.

Apply this to your own argument. Where’s your proof?
It is simply your opinion that no GC= no Holy Spirit.

But what you have said is telling. You have said that the CR is about a style of worship. A style which Vatican II says nothing about. As though the Holy Spirit is especially fond of a “style” of worship which is exactly opposite of that “style” to which he gives the highest support in the documents of Vatican II. That counci used the strongest language of support ever given in any Church council regarding liturgical music, BTW. And this divergence of Vatican II and the CR is supposed to make sense?

I didn’t say the CR was about a style of worship. I said that the CR not giving GC pride of place was more of a sylistic issue.

As to the rest of this…I don’t know. I’m not a part of the CR, it’s not my cup of tea and frankly I have other issues with it, which are for other threads. I’m not defending the CR against anything but your chant argument.

I have no idea what question you’re talking about.

I asked if you’d consider all masses that are not said in Latin to be devoid of the Holy Spirit, since Vatican II states “The use of the Latin language is to be preserved”…?

 

[ac_claire]

Should a bride and groom always use GC as pride of place in a ceremony that is to be filled with joyful music? I have yet to attend a single wedding and observe that GC is used therein. For that matter, I have yet to attend a funeral liturgy where GC is used.

Sorry, Joysong.
According to Voci-Mike’s argument, the Holy Spirit couldn’t have been involved in any of these services.

 

[ac_claire]

You seem either unable or determined not to understand my point, much less address it. Instead you descend to ad hominem.

VociMike, with all due respect…

There are several people here who are addressing your point.
As far as understanding it, I have tried and am willing to keep trying. But your basic argument, as you keep repeating it, doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Lepanto]

I have yet to attend a single wedding and observe that GC is used therein. For that matter, I have yet to attend a funeral liturgy where GC is used.

I have yet to attend a Mass of ANY kind that had Gregorian Chant. Not even one, and I’ve been at many Masses at many parishes all over the US. By contrast, they almost always have Praise and Worship style music, even weddings and funerals.

So much for Vatican II.

 

[VociMike]

Sorry, Joysong.
According to Voci-Mike’s argument, the Holy Spirit couldn’t have been involved in any of these services.

That’s simply a foolish comment.

 

[VociMike]

VociMike, with all due respect…

There are several people here who are addressing your point.
As far as understanding it, I have tried and am willing to keep trying. But your basic argument, as you keep repeating it, doesn’t make sense to me.

Then tell me what you think my basic argument is. You have misrepresented it in a number of posts.

 

[Joysong]

VociMike:

Originally Posted by ac claire
Sorry, Joysong.
According to Voci-Mike’s argument, the Holy Spirit couldn’t have been involved in any of these services.

That’s simply a foolish comment.

I don’t believe it is foolish at all, but right on! Take a census of the hundreds of parishes using the ordinary form of liturgy, and ask how many of these are using GC in their worship? I have been to many liturgies, in the past several years, in many states, and I have yet to see it.

Therefore, not only are the charismatics not using GC, but ordinary parishes have not adopted it either.

But for some strange biased reason, you single out the charismatics and ask why not? May I ask how many EF liturgies are using it? I know that the few in my area are NOT.

Let’s not be naive, either, and think I am pointing fingers, Mike, because a simple search on your posts reveals a continuous repeat verbatim of the same attack on charismatics. Why, then, do you not address the same question for ALL liturgies?
No, you say simply, “it is a foolish statement.” As though any who rebut your statement are somehow misreading you.

Where does that leave us in this discussion? Wrongfully assuming on your part that the Holy Spirit is not in any of these liturgies? You’re logic is not only flawed, but dangerous.

 

[Lepanto]

Take a census of the hundreds of parishes using the ordinary form of liturgy, and ask how many of these are using GC in their worship? I have been to many liturgies, in the past several years, in many states, and I have yet to see it.

That’s been my experience as well.

But do you not see this widespread disobedience to Vatican II as a problem?

 

[VociMike]

I don’t believe it is foolish at all, but right on! Take a census of the hundreds of parishes using the ordinary form of liturgy, and ask how many of these are using GC in their worship? I have been to many liturgies, in the past several years, in many states, and I have yet to see it.

Therefore, not only are the charismatics not using GC, but ordinary parishes have not adopted it either.

But for some strange biased reason, you single out the charismatics and ask why not? May I ask how many EF liturgies are using it? I know that the few in my area are NOT.

Let’s not be naive, either, and think I am pointing fingers, Mike, because a simple search on your posts reveals a continuous repeat verbatim of the same attack on charismatics. Why, then, do you not address the same question for ALL liturgies?
No, you say simply, “it is a foolish statement.” As though any who rebut your statement are somehow misreading you.

Where does that leave us in this discussion? Wrongfully assuming on your part that the Holy Spirit is not in any of these liturgies? You’re logic is not only flawed, but dangerous.

My, my. Now my logic is dangerous. Such angst! Such fear and loathing!

The Church as a whole, which we know is led by the Holy Spirit, does have islands where the music which the Church esteems (as she notes in Vatican II) is esteemed. Where are those islands in the Charismatic Renewal? If the CR is led by the Holy Spirit, where are the St. John Cantiuses of the CR? Where are the Assumption Grottos? I could name a great many more mainstream churches which give that pride of place to the music called for by Vatican II. Where are the Charismatic Renewal equivalents? It’s such a simple and obvious question, and all the disparaging comments directed at me don’t go one inch towards answering it.

 

[ac_claire]

Then tell me what you think my basic argument is. You have misrepresented it in a number of posts.

If I have misrepresented what you’re trying to say, I am sorry.

In a nutshell, your basic argument (the one that I don’t find logical) seems to be: If the Holy Spirit guided Vatican II, and Vatican II said that Gregorian Chant should be given pride of place in worship services, then the CR not giving GC pride of place is evidence that the CR can’t be led by the same Sprit that led VII.

Is that correct?

 

[Joysong]

It’s such a simple and obvious question, and all the disparaging comments directed at me don’t go one inch towards answering it.

And so was mine. Why do you single out the charismatics when 99-44/100% of other liturgies do likewise? Why are you so biased? Why do you not get on the stand and ask this question of other liturgies, including your own TC liturgy?

If you insist on avoiding the questions of others in order to project your own limited viewpoint, then how can a discussion continue? Obviously, it cannot. I leave you to your ramblings.

 

[VociMike]

If I have misrepresented what you’re trying to say, I am sorry.

In a nutshell, your basic argument (the one that I don’t find logical) seems to be: If the Holy Spirit guided Vatican II, and Vatican II said that Gregorian Chant should be given pride of place in worship services, then the CR not giving GC pride of place is evidence that the CR can’t be led by the same Sprit that led VII.

Is that correct?

Yes, with the further evident proviso that the CR gives chant and polyphony and organ much less pride of place than the Church as a whole. And whatever else you think of it, it is an entirely logical question to pose. And I haven’t seen anybody address it. And just saying “taint so!” isn’t addressing it.

 

[Joysong]

Lepanto:

That’s been my experience as well.

But do you not see this widespread disobedience to Vatican II as a problem?

No, simply because it is not a mandate, a must-do, a ‘nothing else is permitted’ directive. When it does become a problem, the Church will step in and make it a mandate. Until then, one cannot imply that the Holy Spirit is not being followed.

 

[VociMike]

And so was mine. Why do you single out the charismatics when 99-44/100% of other liturgies do likewise? Why are you so biased? Why do you not get on the stand and ask this question of other liturgies, including your own TC liturgy?

Umm, did you notice what the subject of this thread was? It’s not about “other liturgies”. Am I now to be faulted for discussing the very thing this thread is intended to discuss?

And it is clear that the CR holds the music and instruments singled out for praise by the Church in even less esteem than the Church as a whole (which is bad enough).

If you insist on avoiding the questions of others in order to project your own limited viewpoint, then how can a discussion continue? Obviously, it cannot. I leave you to your ramblings.

More ad hominem.

 

[ac_claire]

The Church as a whole, which we know is led by the Holy Spirit, does have islands where the music which the Church esteems (as she notes in Vatican II) is esteemed… Where are the Charismatic Renewal equivalents? It’s such a simple and obvious question, and all the disparaging comments directed at me don’t go one inch towards answering it.

(I obviously have waay too much free time today. )

Previous posts in this thread that have attempted to answer your question, or have directly addressed your question: #13, #14, #26, #35, #40 and #43.

Seems you don’t accept any of the explanations. But it doesn’t mean that your question has been left unanswered, as you keep repeatedly saying.

 

[ac_claire]

Yes, with the further evident proviso that the CR gives chant and polyphony and organ much less pride of place than the Church as a whole. And whatever else you think of it, it is an entirely logical question to pose. And I haven’t seen anybody address it. And just saying “taint so!” isn’t addressing it.

Again, in post #43 I conceded that from all the evidence presented, you’re right- the CR renewal in general doesn’t give GC pride of place. In and of itself, this is unfortunate. I don’t think it’s right, either. What I don’t find logical is how this fact automatically leads to the the second part of your argument: the CR can’t be led by the Holy Spirit. That’s a very broad brush, and GC is a thin line of paint.

It’s also been pointed out by some of the actual Charismatics here that they don’t see sacred music mocked or scorned to the extent you’re saying it is, even if it isn’t their preferred or most used style of music.

The validity of a movement in the Church can’t be affirmed or denied simply by how much respect* you think* the movement gives to GC.

 

[juliamajor]

I’m going to try to locate a sermon, which is available somewhere online. In it, the Priest tells the story of at least one linguist who attended a charismatic prayer meeting. When people started speaking in tongues he immediately rushed out. Someone followed him and asked why he left so quickly…

The lingust explained that he understood one of the languages that was spoken, and said that the person “speaking in tongues” was actually prasing Lucifer.

In the sermon the Priest also explains that in the Roman book for exorcisms, one of the surest signs of demonic possession is when the person speaks a language they do not know.

Not necessarily. Do you know what Pope Pius X warned at the beginning of the 20the century? He said the time for antichrist was approaching, and he - the Vicar of Christ and one of only two Popes canonized in the past 600 years - said beware of miracles.

Lying wonders is one of the principle deceptions that the antichrist will use, and I personally think the charismatic movement is indeed a work of the spirit of antichrist. You may disagree, but that is what I think.

Here’s why I think it is not the Holy Spirit. The Charismatic renewal began as a movement within heresy.

Now, according to Catholic theology, “heresy is worse than any sin of the moral order”, since it is a direct attack on God, and the supernatural virtue of faith which is the foundation of the supernatural life. Thus, heresy is even worse than abortion, since abortion is a direct attack on man, and only an indirect attack on God.

To believe that the charismatic movement is a work of the Holy Ghost is to believe that God chose to begin this movement within heretical sects, which no Catholic in their right mind would believe.

Since the sin of heresy is worse than the sin of abortion, saying that God began a movement in heretical sects is worse than saying God began a great movement of the Spirit in the pro-abortion movement.

I draw the parallel to abortion only because the indifference of our day often prevents us from perceiving the horrors of heresy (Protestantism). We are so often surrounded by friendly heretics that we conclude that heresy itself must not be too bad. The exact contrary is true.

In fact, in the book of Titus (I believe 3:11) the Bible says that we should avoid a heretic after warning him two times. St. John, the “apostle of love”, says we should not even say “Godspeed” to a heretic, lest we be guilty of communicating in his wicked works.

Heresy is an extremely great evil. As I said, according to Catholic theology, it is worse than any sin in the order or morality since it is a direct attack in God via the faith. Abortion is, objectively speaking, a lesser evil than heresy.

So, how can any right thinking Catholic believe that a movement that originated in heresy could be of the Holy Ghost?

The charismatic movement has its spiritual foundation in feelings and emotions. It might give someone a boost in the sense of an increased fervor, but the foundation is sand. One must move far beyond the charismatic emotionalism to develope a true spiritual life. A spiritual life built on emotions is a house built on sand.

God can bring good out of evil. Therefore, if someone can use the emotional boost found in the charismatic movement to lead them to a true and deep spiritual life, that would be great; but in order to develope that deeper spiritual life it would require moving away from the emotional nonsense characteristic of charismatic movement.

I hope you use any good you have received from the charismatic movement to develope a true and deep spiritual life which is founded, not on pep rally enthusiasm or emotion, but on spiritual sacrifice, and by embracing the cross through the motive of supernatural charity (love of God). That is the only true foundation for the spiritual life. All else is sand.

Wow I love that your name is pax et caritas- neither which you seem to exercise. You better inform B16 and the popes before them that they were promoting heresy! I’m sure it will be news to them since JPii called charismatics the ‘heart’ of the church…I am charismatics and my so called emotionalism has involved me in the life of my church and my community-Pep Rally? I praise God- Which i believe is one of the duties a human has toward God.True spiritual life- or your version?For some reason lots of people think charismatics are complete morons- well guess what- most I know are quite well versed in Catechism and we don’t just participate in Charismatics stuff but have Other Devotions. the Divine Mercy, the Rosary, Eucharistic Adoration(which charismatics in my parish started and paid for the monstrance to contain it.)Liturgy of the hours and readings of the scripture church fathers and saints. Before seeing the anti- christ in anyone else you should look into the mirror first- we ALL have a bit of the anti Christ in as as St augustine said.Charity-embracing the cross? Can you read into people’s hearts or only the surface? God reads the heart - man judges on what he perceives- perception is reality for people - but people’s perceptions are often tainted by the prejudices or their own ego. Stop insulting the part of the Body of Christ that YOU do like- and start seeing us as the Vicar of Christ does.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

For crying out loud-

OP, here is the web link for all the parishes in the Diocese of Steubenville:

diosteub.org/index.cfm/NewsItem?ID=57806&From=home

There are 9 parish churches in Steubenville, including the cathedral. Find one you think meets your needs. Get a group of like-minded individuals, car pool, and don’t go to Mass on campus if you don’t like it and think it is wrong somehow.

If you really think it is as horrible as you say, bring it to the attention of the provincial in charge of those franscicans that run FSU. While you are at it, bring it to the attention of the Bishop of Steubenville. Let them hash it out. Be respectful, present your case politely and cogently, offer evidence and witnesses.

In the meantime, see how many people are willing to go to Mass off-site. If it as bad as you say, you might have quite a caravan.