Concerts in church?

[TimothyH]

True - - and not every Catholic church has a good organ. But that doesn’t mean we have to have guitars! I think piano would be a second choice, if no organ.

I used to think the same way about guitars until I heard Ave Maria played on spanish guitar at Mass.

It is difficult not to play the guitar without sounding jarring but it can be done by a skilled player. The people over at Chant Cafe are both serious musicians and true liturgy geeks and they take the guitar seriously. chantcafe.com.

Listen to Ave Maria played by Emmanuel Rossfelder at youtube.com/watch?v=kQbqSKTnyzY and see if you don’t like it. A simpler version by Michael Lucarelli is at youtube.com/watch?v=LNUJA9N14eM. Both are outstanding. I find them both relaxing and meditative. I could pray after communion with these in the background.

One does not hear good guitar often. The LA Guitar Quartet is truly sublime. I would love to see these guys live.

-Tim-

 

[27lw]

I used to think the same way about guitars until I heard Ave Maria played on spanish guitar at Mass.

It is difficult not to play the guitar without sounding jarring but it can be done by a skilled player. The people over at Chant Cafe are both serious musicians and true liturgy geeks and they take the guitar seriously. chantcafe.com.

Listen to Ave Maria played by Emmanuel Rossfelder at youtube.com/watch?v=kQbqSKTnyzY and see if you don’t like it. A simpler version by Michael Lucarelli is at youtube.com/watch?v=LNUJA9N14eM. Both are outstanding. I find them both relaxing and meditative. I could pray after communion with these in the background.

One does not hear good guitar often. The LA Guitar Quartet is truly sublime. I would love to see these guys live.

-Tim-

Yeah, I like classical guitar too. But how can you really accompany congregational singing with it? Ave Maria is quite soloistic, wouldn’t you say? It’s not really like we have light classical music after communion. At least I’ve never seen that.

 

[TimothyH]

Yeah, I like classical guitar too. But how can you really accompany congregational singing with it? Ave Maria is quite soloistic, wouldn’t you say? It’s not really like we have light classical music after communion. At least I’ve never seen that.

The guitar is not for everyplace and not for all times but neither is it to be universally condemned. There is a time and place for it if done well and many serious liturgists and musicians take it seriously. That’s all I’m saying.

-Tim-

 

[janeway529]

This is very interesting to me, I have been trying to read up on the pre-Vatican II Mass in Mexico, for instance. Did they use vernacular hymns with guitar, during the TLM?
I would love to read up on this - - do you have sources? Did they not use organ, Gregorian chant, etc. like in the rest of the Catholic world? I know there are Mexican / Latin American composers, who composed in the baroque polyphonic form, for instance. But you are telling me that guitars were used at Mass instead? Please tell me where I can read more. Thanks!

I don’t know if there are sources available online. This subject is referred to “liturgical inculturation.” Bolivia and Paraguay especially have a long liturgical music tradition using native instruments, being taught by the Franciscans and the Jesuits. I suppose you would be able to find them in the order’s archives, but that isn’t exactly easy. In Guatamala, there was a composer named Tomas Pascual; in the Congo, there was the Missa Luba. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missa_Luba)

Interestingly, did you know that ‘Silent Night’ was originally played on guitar at Christmas Midnight Mass in 1818 at St. Nicholas Church in Oberndorf, Austria?

 

[Sarabande]

Of course it is to be respected, but the Ordinary is the person with the authority in his diocese who has the final say on how it will be implemented.

In Latin America, Mexico, and the Philippines for example, guitars have been in Catholic Churches for centuries.

While it would make sense that the Philippines incorporated the acoustic guitar during mass since Spain occupied the country for so long, I still find that interesting. My mother and family are from the Philippines and in the province where they lived, the organ was used for the masses in all of the local parish churches they’ve attended. This was Pre-Vat II, though, and maybe a decade or so after Vat II. Today, you’ll probably see more guitars, especially here in the States with their masses. Most of my family have not been back to the Philippines in years, so I can’t say what it’s like there now for mass. That said, the last Filipino mass I attended and participated in over here used the organ and had some really beautiful traditional Filipino hymns. I could see how they would also sound beautiful with a classical guitar.

 

[Sarabande]

But the composer, Wilhelm Richard Wagner. was a horrible man. He was a virulent anti-Semite Nazi (meaning he hated Jews).

Would a Bishop give permission for a parish to conduct a concert of Beethoven’s Fifth and Ninth Symphony (even though Beethoven was protestant)? I find it hard to imagine that any Bishop would categorically deny such permission (indeed, the popular Catholic hymn, “Joyful, joyful, we adore thee” is set to the Fifth Symphony). But what about Wagner? I could imagine that MANY Bishops would withhold their consent.

Just wanted to fix a few things so that people reading this won’t come away with the wrong information on musical history… just in case anyone cares. I do because I’m a classical musician and I love history. lol! Beethoven was raised a Catholic. His baptism is recorded in the Catholic church of St. Regius. Also, “Joyful, Joyful” is set to the final movement of his 9th Symphony… not his 5th.

It is true that Wagner was an arrogant and egotistical man. Many classical musicians recognize the genius he had in his music, but his huge ego caused him to often be long-winded in his music. He was not Catholic. In fact, he helped cause his second wife, a Catholic and daughter of the composer Franz Liszt (who, although had a problem with the ladies in early life, was still very devout and joined the 3rd Order of St. Francis later in life), to leave her faith, leave her true husband and marry him in a Protestant marriage.

While true that he was a known anti-semite, due to many of his published writings, he was not a Nazi. The Nazi party did not exist until the early 20th century. Wagner lived and died in the 19th century. His music became associated with the Nazi party in the 20th c. because Hitler loved Wagner’s music. He was complicated, though, in part because he had many Jewish friends and colleagues who respected and cared for him despite knowing his stance on Jews. One of them was even a pallbearer at his funeral.

In regards to the OP, what I have seen in my diocese is that sacred music concerts are often permitted. Some parishes, including the cathedral, will also have classical music concerts with chamber groups, vocal groups, classical music soloists, etc. It helps bring revenue in, especially if the groups rent the church for the concert. They usually never do rock-style concerts or even Praise Music/Contemporary Christian Music concerts in the church buildings. Those are usually reserved for the parish halls, I think mainly because that style of music promotes a kind of behavior that isn’t suitable for in a church. It’s not “bad” behavior, but usually classical music concerts or vocal concerts or Taize concerts (which we have every year at one parish I work at) contain audiences who will stay quiet and still in their seats even when they are moved by the music. Whereas music concerts of other styles encourage a more physical and vocal way of being moved by the music, which is often considered inappropriate for a church setting, thus setting those concerts up in the parish halls. I’m not saying that this is the case across the board in other parishes or dioceses, but the practice and train of thought I see in the diocese I’m in, as well as surrounding dioceses.

 

[johnmann]

1. Guitars are associated in our culture with pop / secular music. (have you ever heard a rock guitar solo, and thought, that sounds like nice church music?).

Having grown up in the Church of the 80’s, I associate guitars with Mass music.

 

[Sarabande]

Having grown up in the Church of the 80’s, I associate guitars with Mass music.

That’s funny. I grew up in the 80s as well and never associated guitars with music for Mass, even though we had guitars playing at least one mass every weekend. As much as it was part of my formative years at mass, a guitar at mass always sounded like my Dad’s folk music records, so I have almost always associated it with secular music. That’s not to say I have never heard a guitar played reverently at mass. I have. A well-trained classical guitarist (and even a middle-of-the-road guitarist) can do it. Even the folk guitar woman who played at our parish masses was rarely irreverent. I like the acoustic guitar and especially love classical guitar, but still do not think it is the ideal for mass, always associating it with the outside world from as early as I can remember.

 

[Sarabande]

Yeah, I like classical guitar too. But how can you really accompany congregational singing with it? Ave Maria is quite soloistic, wouldn’t you say? It’s not really like we have light classical music after communion. At least I’ve never seen that.

It depends on the size of the congregation. I once cantored a very traditional nuptial mass (Latin chant, etc.) The organ was out of commission and being repaired, so they had a classical guitarist and violinist do everything. It was beautiful and was the very first time I was able to say, “Yeah, if the organ wasn’t working and we had a person this well-trained on the guitar play, it would be a good substitute.”

The thing was that the congregation (the couple’s guests) was probably less than 200 people. We had regular classical solo pieces (Bach’s Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring, and Schubert’s “Ave Maria”, etc.), but also had congregational pieces. Oh, and this wedding was one of the only Catholic ones where everyone sang when supposed to and even chanted in the Latin. The chant, obviously, was done a capella.

A classically played guitar really couldn’t support a large congregation for mass. It’s better for more intimate masses.

 

[27lw]

I don’t know if there are sources available online. This subject is referred to “liturgical inculturation.” Bolivia and Paraguay especially have a long liturgical music tradition using native instruments, being taught by the Franciscans and the Jesuits. I suppose you would be able to find them in the order’s archives, but that isn’t exactly easy. In Guatamala, there was a composer named Tomas Pascual; in the Congo, there was the Missa Luba. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missa_Luba)

Interestingly, did you know that ‘Silent Night’ was originally played on guitar at Christmas Midnight Mass in 1818 at St. Nicholas Church in Oberndorf, Austria?

Some thoughts I had:

1. Here’s something interesting I saw at a website for the “Stillenachtmuseum”:

"Legend has it that the composition of the song ‚Silent night! Holy night!’ was due to a defective organ in the church of St. Nikolaus in Oberndorf on Christmas Eve of the year 1818. Supposedly a mouse nibbled through the bellows rendering them useless. To rescue the musical program for Christmas mass, a guitar was used to accompany voices in song.

The farther back that a significant event dates, the more legends accumulate around it- the result is that it becomes trivialized and its significance obscured. It thereby loses its meaning and implications for today!

In Gruber’s time, the guitar was an instrument played by people on the street, in taverns and in normal everyday life. Yet, it was this everyday instrument that Gruber and Mohr used after Christmas mass in 1818 to express their faith before the manger: the faith that God became one of us through a child in need.

“Silent Night” was no substitute for the liturgy. It was an expression of faith that arose independent of ceremony. A song in the language of the people (German) would have had no place in the traditional Latin liturgy. The legend of the broken organ trivializes this accomplishment!"

I think that is saying that the legend of Silent Night is not totally accurate.

1. Missa Luba: looks like this one was composed in 1958, meant as a performance/ concert Mass, rather than to use the music during an actual liturgy (at least, I don’t think that would have been used in 1958)?
2. Liturgical inculturation - - I thought this was basically an outgrowth after Vatican II? Not before?

 

[janeway529]

Some thoughts I had:

1. Here’s something interesting I saw at a website for the “Stillenachtmuseum”:

"Legend has it that the composition of the song ‚Silent night! Holy night!’ was due to a defective organ in the church of St. Nikolaus in Oberndorf on Christmas Eve of the year 1818. Supposedly a mouse nibbled through the bellows rendering them useless. To rescue the musical program for Christmas mass, a guitar was used to accompany voices in song.

The farther back that a significant event dates, the more legends accumulate around it- the result is that it becomes trivialized and its significance obscured. It thereby loses its meaning and implications for today!

In Gruber’s time, the guitar was an instrument played by people on the street, in taverns and in normal everyday life. Yet, it was this everyday instrument that Gruber and Mohr used after Christmas mass in 1818 to express their faith before the manger: the faith that God became one of us through a child in need.

“Silent Night” was no substitute for the liturgy. It was an expression of faith that arose independent of ceremony. A song in the language of the people (German) would have had no place in the traditional Latin liturgy. The legend of the broken organ trivializes this accomplishment!"

I think that is saying that the legend of Silent Night is not totally accurate.

1. Missa Luba: looks like this one was composed in 1958, meant as a performance/ concert Mass, rather than to use the music during an actual liturgy (at least, I don’t think that would have been used in 1958)?
2. Liturgical inculturation - - I thought this was basically an outgrowth after Vatican II? Not before?

It seems impractical to me that the Missa Luba would be allowed at all if it wasn’t going to be used for the Mass. Liturgical inculturation has been around for centuries, but not necessarily termed that way.

The history of the St. Thomas Christians of India before the 16th century is a classical example of how the Christians could find themselves completely at home in the Indian culture. In their social and religious practices, and worshipping customs they were very much like their non-Christian neighbours.[20]

The Chinese experimentation of Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) with the cult of the familial dead that was administered with prostrations, the burning of incense and the offering of food at their tombs was condemned as superstitious practices. Roberto Nobili’s (1577-1656) attempts with Indian culture were frowned upon by his confreres, and later they had to be abandoned. Even during this period, we come across some silver lining by way of official sanction in favour of liturgical inculturation. Thus in 1615 Pope Paul V allowed the Chinese to use the Chinese language in the liturgy though this permission was withdrawn in 1661 due to the objections of the missionaries themselves. In 1659 Propaganda Fide wrote a letter asking the missionaries not to make attempts to persuade the people of the mission lands to change their rites, customs and ways, provided they are not very manifestly contrary to religion and morals.[21]

nelsonmcbs.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/liturgy-and-inculturation/

Some Pre-Vatican II Documents have inculturation tangentially mentioned, but it’s worth looking at how the concept formally develops leading up to the Second Vatican Council:

1947-nov-20 Mediator Dei
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

59​

188 – 195​

---

1955-dec-25 Musicae Sacrae Disciplina
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_25121955_musicae-sacrae_en.html

69 – 72​

75​

---

1958-sep-3 De musica sacra et sacra liturgia
adoremus.org/1958Intro-sac-mus.html

112​

---

1963-dec-04 Sacrosanctum Concilium
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

37 – 40​

65, 68​

119​

 

[27lw]

Thanks Janeway 529. There’s a lot of great reading here:

Some of the things I’ve found:
From Mediator Dei:
62. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and** lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See. **
164. Since His bitter sufferings constitute the principal mystery of our redemption, it is only fitting that the Catholic faith should give it the greatest prominence. This mystery is the very center of divine worship since the Mass represents and renews it every day and since all the sacraments are most closely united with the cross.[150]

1. As regards music, let the clear and guiding norms of the Apostolic See be scrupulously observed. Gregorian chant, which the Roman Church considers her own as handed down from antiquity and kept under her close tutelage, is proposed to the faithful as belonging to them also. In certain parts of the liturgy the Church definitely prescribes it;[171] it makes the celebration of the sacred mysteries not only more dignified and solemn but helps very much to increase the faith and devotion of the congregation. For this reason, Our predecessors of immortal memory, Pius X and Pius XI, decree - and We are happy to confirm with Our authority the norms laid down by them - that in seminaries and religious institutes, Gregorian chant be diligently and zealously promoted, and moreover that the old Scholae Cantorum be restored, at least in the principal churches. This has already been done with happy results in not a few places.[172]

So far, I see a lot about bitter sufferings and Gregorian chant. I don’t see much different in the later writings. Still waiting for the confirmation of the assertion that guitars have been used for centuries in Mexico, Latin America, Philippines…

 

[ChemicalBean]

I simply must respond to some of these objections!

True, the organ has only been around Catholic Churches for about 700 years. In general, some people object to the use of piano and guitars, because:

1. Guitars are associated in our culture with pop / secular music. (have you ever heard a rock guitar solo, and thought, that sounds like nice church music?).

Actually yes, Eddie Van Halen’s Eruption guitar solo distinctly reminds me of something JS Bach should have written.

1. Pianos are also usually heard in a secular context in our culture (classical piano concerts, jazz piano bar, many difference forms of pop piano, think Billy Joel).

Why should the devil get all the best instruments?

1. Piano is a technically a percussion instrument, and does not sustain like the human voice or the organ.

A piano can lead the congregation with the ability to subdivide the beat and play rhythms. I hate playing the “guess if the organist can count the long note” game.

1. The organ is the official approved instrument of Catholic Mass. (mentioned by name in Musicam Sacram, etc). When you use other instruments, you are displacing the official instrument.

Candles are probably mentioned by name somewhere too, but thank goodness for electric lights for primary use.

1. Guitars and pianos have only been in Catholic churches since the late 1960s/ 70s, Not an era known for good taste in the arts. : ) Not a venerable tradition compared to the organ, Gregorian chant, sacred polyphony.

Are you kidding? That era gave us Procol Harum!

 

[Sarabande]

I simply must respond to some of these objections!

A piano can lead the congregation with the ability to subdivide the beat and play rhythms. I hate playing the “guess if the organist can count the long note” game.

That has more to do with the level of musicianship of the organist(s) you have heard, rather than the actual instrument itself. An organ with a good musician behind it can do the same. Believe me, as a musician and working with hundreds of musicians, not to mention just as a person in the pews or in the audience, I’ve worked and heard good to excellent musicians in every instrument, as well as sat there listening to an bad to mediocre organist, pianist, guitarist, harpsichordist, etc. and wonder what rhythms and/or notes they were playing because it certainly was not what was on the sheet music.

 

[27lw]

Good ones Chemical Bean!
You made me laugh!

 

[felsguy]

I simply must respond to some of these objections!

Rock on, bro!