Conclusive evidence for Design!

  • Thread starter Thread starter tonyrey
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh. So what is meant is that those who espouse evolution make predictions.

Evolutionists make predictions.
But evolution itself, as an entity, cannot predict.

I think this is a distinction that is of great import. For evolution as a theory, if it predicts, would not be accused of bias. It would simply be the science that declares it to be.

However, there is no doubt that when I see "Evolutionists have predicted " that, given the fallibility of the human person, I cannot conclude that this prediction was made solely on the science, without prior assumptions and biases.
 
I hate to burst your bubble, but the First Amendment of the Constitution has nothing to do with that. The text of the First Amendment reads:
I’m well aware of what it says, and what it means. The effect is that government sponsorship of religion is unconstitional. Meaning that public school sponsorship or endorsement of religious activities is illegal.

I re-read my post, and I did seem to suggest that the FA was purely to keep religion out of science class. This is my bad, and not at all what I meant to say!

You’re right of course - it’s not the FA that keeps creationism out of science class, it’s common sense. In most states, anyway…
 
Science does not assume materialism. It does assume a predictable pattern or order to events, but whether the “substance” underneath that order is material in a currently definable sense is not a required presumption. In fact, what matter actually is as a fundamental reality remains an open question.
I sense equivocation here…
 
Oh. So what is meant is that those who espouse evolution make predictions.

Evolutionists make predictions.
But evolution itself, as an entity, cannot predict.

I think this is a distinction that is of great import. For evolution as a theory, if it predicts, would not be accused of bias. It would simply be the science that declares it to be.

However, there is no doubt that when I see "Evolutionists have predicted " that, given the fallibility of the human person, I cannot conclude that this prediction was made solely on the science, without prior assumptions and biases.
Is this the sort of mental gymnatics you have to perform to convince yourself that evolution is wrong?

I could go into detail about some of the predictions, and how the evidence makes these predictions unavoidable and immune to individual bias. But the thread might get closed down. I’ll have a go if you like!

You do realise that the whole purpose of the scientific method is to *remove *bias, and its success has been mainly due to its supreme success at removing bias?
 
I cannot conclude that this prediction was made solely on the science, without prior assumptions and biases.
I was going to say that the same thing could be said for ID. But then it doesn’t make predictions.
 
[directed to someone else]…How about you provide the full scientific theory of Intelligent Design, to the same detail as you’re asking of me? If there’s a designer, what are the experiments that prove it? What predictions does your theory make? Who or what is the designer? How many designers are there? Who designed the designer(s) [ad infinitum]? When did it/they do their work? How? Why? What would falsify your theory?
But what is wrong with an intelligent designer. You speak as if one particular idea was an insult instead of a possibility.

This universe we share is unique, it had its own beginning, and it developed in its own way. It is in every respect a non-repeatable and totally unique thing.
It is not as if there is an objective “normality” out there somewhere which we can benchmark our universe’s degree of normality to.

For a totally unique happening I find that I cannot say that such and such is an impossibility because it stretches credulity. This whole thing has never happened before, and to declare an active intelligence in its design an unbelievable thing is itself somehow degrading your own journey through a unique place. You will never see the likes of it again.
 
I sense equivocation here…
There is no equivocation. Logic, mathematical assertions, conceptual patterns, analogies, designs in art and geometry, etc. follow or have predictable patterns inherent in their “nature” and do not require a “material” construct to instantiate.

The more that the traditional “concept” of matter is unpacked, the less is its “substance” being shown to be of relevance. It is looking more and more as if the in"formed" nature of reality has primacy over a primarily substance-based one. The question becoming more meaningful is: “Where did the information come from?” Rules of logic and elements of design could very well be crucial in understanding the nature of reality and defining the course of science.

Material evolutionists may very well find themselves in the same dogmatic position as they are so fond of disparaging the Church over at the time of Galileo, proving that God has a delightful sense of the ironic. Judge not lest you be judged!
 
Exactly.

And when they find the answer - which they will - they’ll go on checking and rechecking forever, comparing and contrasting and developing as more and more becomes known.

Sarah x 🙂
Certainly. And then what? You have to have a great deal of faith in human nature assuming that when “it’s all figured out” the ones who have done so will also have the good will to use it for the benefit of others rather than merely to control it for their own. The increasing divergence between the rich and poor, the powerful and the weak, does not do much to instill that kind of faith, at least for me, in a positive conclusion to human history. That’s just me, of course. You have always been a more positive person.

For me, the uncertain behaviour of quantum particles presents a possibility that at the most elementary level these particles function as control nodes used by animators in creating cell animations. On a quantum level, I suspect, God has full control over each particle to make their individual behaviour indeterminable to scientists, but he manipulates these so that at a macro level consistent and predictable results obtain. However, this need not be so. Over time, God could bring about changes in nature that will leave scientists baffled and, hopefully, bemused by their own incompetence.

Of course, this view could be very upsetting to those who feel they are so close to “figuring it all out,” sensing the incredible power about to be realized by science. My profound intuition is that God has a profound sense of pathos, humour and justice, where the “powerful” elite will be put in their rightful place at just the right moment like the ugly stepsisters in the fairy tale.
 
The increasing divergence between the rich and poor, the powerful and the weak, does not do much to instill that kind of faith, at least for me, in a positive conclusion to human history. That’s just me, of course. You have always been a more positive person.
Oh I think you have a valid concern. There will always be these gaps though - we just do what we can to minimize the impact of these gaps on the weak, the poor, the vulnerable. I do have a lot of ‘‘trust’’ I guess in people though, we get it wrong big time, but we mostly work to get it right, and improve the lot of others, one way and another. I like people. I think they’re cool - but not as cool as my horses 😛
My profound intuition is that God has a profound sense of pathos, humour and justice, where the “powerful” elite will be put in their rightful place at just the right moment like the ugly stepsisters in the fairy tale.
😃

You could be right. 🤷

If there is a God, you’re right about this - He has a sense of humor. 😃

Sarah x 🙂
 
I was going to say that the same thing could be said for ID. But then it doesn’t make predictions.
False! Design predicts:
  1. The laws of nature will continue to provide a reliable basis for living organisms and rational existence.
  2. Persons will always be regarded as free, responsible agents whose activity is not caused entirely by physical events and will never be scientifically explained in every respect.
  3. The power of reason will always be more valuable, trustworthy and significant than purposeless processes.
  4. Everyone except lunatics will continue to live as if life is objectively valuable, purposeful and meaningful - in stark contrast to the materialists’ endorsement of futility with their claim that life is **objectively **valueless, pointless and meaningless.
 
You do realise that the whole purpose of the scientific method is to *remove *bias, and its success has been mainly due to its supreme success at removing bias?
The whole purpose of the sceptic’s method is to consolidate bias **in favour of physical causes **even though the success of science is **entirely **due to the power of independent thought.
 
But what is wrong with an intelligent designer. You speak as if one particular idea was an insult instead of a possibility.

This universe we share is unique, it had its own beginning, and it developed in its own way. It is in every respect a non-repeatable and totally unique thing.
It is not as if there is an objective “normality” out there somewhere which we can benchmark our universe’s degree of normality to.

For a totally unique happening I find that I cannot say that such and such is an impossibility because it stretches credulity. This whole thing has never happened before, and to declare an active intelligence in its design an unbelievable thing is itself somehow degrading your own journey through a unique place. You will never see the likes of it again.
👍 Irrefutable!
 
There is no equivocation. Logic, mathematical assertions, conceptual patterns, analogies, designs in art and geometry, etc. follow or have predictable patterns inherent in their “nature” and do not require a “material” construct to instantiate.

The more that the traditional “concept” of matter is unpacked, the less is its “substance” being shown to be of relevance. It is looking more and more as if the in"formed" nature of reality has primacy over a primarily substance-based one. The question becoming more meaningful is: “Where did the information come from?” Rules of logic and elements of design could very well be crucial in understanding the nature of reality and defining the course of science.

Material evolutionists may very well find themselves in the same dogmatic position as they are so fond of disparaging the Church over at the time of Galileo, proving that God has a delightful sense of the ironic. Judge not lest you be judged!
👍 The development of modern science is based on belief in the power of reason and the intelligibility of the universe implied in the teaching of Jesus and preserved by the Church for two thousand years.
 
Your claim is evo does not have an a priori basis?

We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. **Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. ** - Richard Lewontin

Materialism consists of story telling. Do you not read your own literature?

What materialistic societies even studied science? How about Islam? :hmmm:

The west led by Catholics brought science to where it is today.
👍 Stanley Jaki has demonstrated that irrefutably in his books about the development of modern science - for those who are open-minded…
 
The order of the nucleotide bases in the DNA molecule has no molecular chemical or physical cause. There is no scientific explanation for why the bases line up in the configuration they do, yet that order is precisely what allows the functionality of the cell, the transcription of code that allows reproduction and production of the functional proteins that are essential to life. If science can offer no explanation, then that does open the field somewhat.

What you would have to do is offer a plausible solution to this issue rather than go on muttering, “It’s not science.” What we have arrived at is precisely a lacuna that a merely materialistic perspective resorting to physical causation cannot overcome.

I have presented this analogy in a previous post and others before you have not supplied a reasonable response other than to sidestep the problem. Why don’t you have a go at it?

Suppose you spend an afternoon observing the behaviour of ants milling about an anthole. After some hours you notice the dark colour and positioning of the ants on the light concrete appears to resemble the letter W. There is in some sense, a complexity in the shape of the letter W that makes it somewhat improbable, however, given the time you have spent observing them and all the random arrangements the ants have produced with their bodies, there is some degree of probability that the W appeared by “chance”, despite the fact that it has a complex shape. No need to infer intelligence.

Now suppose you keep watching the ants at work and after a few minutes their bodies have taken the arrangement of the letters WANSTRONIAN. This becomes more intriguing to you because the shapes of the letters are not merely complex but also specific because, you notice that the letters match precisely and specifically the letters of your name. This specified complexity of the letters, makes it highly improbable that the event happened by chance. Are you justified in inferring some kind of intelligence behind the action of the ants? Is there a better explanation? Do you need to have evidence of the agent before being justified in claiming there is “some kind” of intelligence at play here? Doesn’t the degree of the specified complexity in the letters warrant an inference to an intelligent agent?

What if, as the afternoon continues, you watch the ants continue to build new letters on the sidewalk. As they work you recall that you tried to eradicate this anthill a week before using a pesticide that wasn’t as effective as you had hoped. An hour later the complete message from the ants comes through. It states, “WANSTRONIAN WE WILL INVADE YOUR HOUSE AT MIDNIGHT!”

Notice this complete message is not only complex, not only highly specified as it uses many letters from the English alphabet but it has taken on a new quality in that the letters precisely match a functional and intended purpose, i.e, to communicate with you in response to your failed attempt at destroying the anthill.

Would you not agree that any explanation not entailing some kind of intelligence would fail despite the fact that you have no evidence for an “actor” other than the message itself?

Dembski and Meyer would both argue, I think, that this event, having specified and functional complexity to a degree that the probabilistic resources available - time, nature of ant brains and ant behaviour, would make an inference to intelligence “of some kind” behind this event not merely highly probable but definite. You would have to conclude there is some kind of intelligent agent behind the ant event even though you have no idea who or what the agent could actually be.

At this point, science could be appealed to in order to “fill the gaps.” “We don’t understand, but there MUST be some biochemical reason behind this event that we don’t yet understand!” could be used, but is susceptible to the same response that science habitually has delivered to theism: a science of the gaps has been conjured to replace method.

In case you missed it, the nucleotide coding in DNA has no biochemical explanation or cause and the functional complexity present there far exceeds the ant example, that if intelligent origin is reasonable to posit in the case of the ants, it is, likewise reasonable to posit in the case of DNA. Science has to provide a biochemical explanation or back away from its “omniscient” posturing. There is warrant to posit, in the absence of a scientific explanation a possible intelligent one.

ID proponents need not insist on having proved intelligent design, but that a strong philosophical argument exists for including “design” as a possible explanation in the absence of any plausible scientific hypotheses. It is up to science and good deductive logic to establish certainty.

What is required from you, Wanstronian, is either a scientific (molecular or physical) explanation for DNA coding, or a good philosophical reason why intelligence cannot be considered. Merely insisting “It’s not science!” does not meet even minimally acceptable standards because its tantamount to insisting, “I don’t want to talk about it.”

To answer this post, three key questions need to be addressed.
  1. If faced with the ant situation, could you reasonably avoid positing intelligence as a probable cause for the appearance of the letters? If so, what is a reasonable and sufficient alternative explanation?
  2. Is the coding in the DNA molecule less probable than the ant writing? If you think so, demonstrate how.
  3. What is a good scientifically testable explanation for the order of nucleotide bases along the spine of the DNA molecule?
Please do not attempt to sidestep this post by avoiding these three questions in your response.
👍 A powerful post to which the answers are still not forthcoming… 😉
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top