Conclusive evidence for Design!

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Well, this is because Behe is operating* within* science. He is not making a philosophical argument, he is making a scientific one. One, admittedly, that will have philosophical implications, but we will have to deal with those after we have discovered if his scientific argument stands up. So the ‘truth vale’ of Behe’s argument must be a scientific one.
Bradski:

Yet, Behe has his criteria and you have yours. How strange. So, the arbiter is who, again? (Please don’t say “science,” because that would imply the achievement of the impossible for true science.)

God bless,
jd
 
If we are no more than biological mechanisms all our physical and mental activity has physical causes, is not under our control and we are not responsible for our thoughts or deeds…
This is a distinct possibility. Free will is a paradox, by the standards of logic and reason. By that I mean that, just as it would be a paradox for there to be no antecedent cause for any phenomenon in the universe, so it would be a paradox for there to be no antecedent cause for the human will.

Will causes behavior; it would be paradoxical for us to say that nothing causes behavior. But this same logic can further ask, "what causes will? Free will is tantamount to saying that there is no antecedent cause for will (Voltaire, to the contrary, observes, “we can do as we will, but not will as we will”). Thus, if will is the antecedent cause for human behavior, what is the antecedent cause for will?

If free will is an uncaused cause, it becomes something God-like – the prime mover of our actions. It cannot itself be explained causally, and thus is acausal.

But a need for causality has been enlisted even in proofs for the existence of God – the universe must have a cause. Just so, the determinist reasons that not only must behavior have a cause, but will itself must have a cause.

**

Regarding design, the source of the difference of viewpoint between the theist and the non-theist seems to be the following:

*Theist: natural selection cannot explain all of the order in the universe, nor the experience of purpose and meaning ---- only design can explain this — therefore, it is self-evident that design by a higher intelligence is the most obvious and most likely explanation, until proven otherwise — design is not a hypothesis needing to be proven, but a self-evident experiential truth that needs to be disproven

*Non-theist: natural selection cannot explain all of the order in the universe, nor the experience of purpose and meaning – there are things that science does not yet know, especially as regards the most fundamental questions of why the universe exists in the state that it does (why there is gravity; time; space; matter and energy); design is a hypothesis – and, like any hypothesis, is a possibility, until definitively disproven – but cannot be regarded as an established fact, nor as the only possible explanation; in fact, a designer would introduce still more questions, such as, “what is the cause or origin of the designer itself?”

That, indeed, is another parting of ways – the theist who believes in design is content to say, “the universe is designed” and does not seem to believe that the question, “what is the antecedent cause of the designer?” is a relevant question.

Indeed, the very idea of studying or seeking to explain the origin of the designer, would be considered practically blasphemous! 😉 The designer cannot itself be studied – it is supernatural, outside of nature.

I cannot blame the scientist for not being satisfied with this explanation… If supernatural explanations were invoked at any point during the history of science, scientific knowledge would not have come as far as it has (for example, “what is the cause of thunder”? “What is the cause of epilepsy?”) Demons were thought to cause epilepsy, at one point; and the gods were presumed to cause thunder.
 
I had no idea **who **you were referring to. I was simply answering your statement:
Good Lord, it wasn’t my statement. It was Behe’s. I said at some point (it may have been in an earlier life), that Behe discounts all explanations except ID. You said:
Can you cite a statement of his to that effect?
So I then quoted a statement by Behe himself where he confirmed this, and gave a link to it, where he said:

‘It is a shock to us in the twentieth century to discover, from observations science has made, that the fundamental mechanisms of life cannot be ascribed to natural selection, and therefore were designed. But we must deal with our shock as best we can and go on’. creationscience.com/onlin…andNotes6.html

Again, these are Behe’s words not mine. And now you have taken up the argument with Behe! He’s on your side, he makes a statement that backs your position and you want to argue with it? You can come up with 5 separate points that disagree with it?

I think this leaves you open to the accusation that you’re not really spending a lot of time listening to any opposing arguments, Tony. You’ve assumed that I wrote that quote and you have therefore, without any attempt to understand what it means, automatically assumed it must be wrong. You’re just putting forward arguments for the sake of doing so.

If you don’t make any attempt to understand what’s being written, how can we trust your replies?
 
You gotta laugh 😃

Gauger works for the Discovery Institute 😃

As for not enough time:
Gauger reported on her work at the Wistar Retrospective Symposium held from June 3 through June 7, 2007 in Boston, Massachusetts. As reported by Daniel Brooks, “…she discussed “leaky growth,” in microbial colonies at high densities, leading to horizontal transfer of genetic information, **and announced that under such conditions she had actually found a novel variant that seemed to lead to enhanced colony growth. **Gunther Wagner said, “So, a beneficial mutation happened right in your lab?” at which point the moderator halted questioning.”
pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/02/id-intelligent.html

😃

Sarah x 🙂
 
You gotta laugh 😃

Gauger works for the Discovery Institute 😃

As for not enough time:
pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/02/id-intelligent.html

😃

Sarah x 🙂

Bacteria adapt? - no news here.

This link is an attempt to disprove the trillions of years needed?

What Really Happened at Wistar II

How my description, and the reaction to it, were distorted
In his leaked report, Dan Brooks claimed that I had found a mutant with beneficial new information. This is stretching things quite a bit. What I probably found was a mutant with an extra copy of the genes required to transport biotin from the medium, or with a higher affinity for biotin. That kind of mutation would help glean every available biotin molecule from the environment, but it would not help make biotin in the first place. There was no new genetic function generated, with sufficient information to make biotin. In the end, this adaptation would be a dead end for these cells once exogenous biotin was exhausted.
In charity, I would offer that perhaps Brooks didn’t follow the details of the experiments I discussed because he is not a geneticist or a molecular biologist. The alternative explanation, that he deliberately misrepresented things to put me in a bad light and to score a talking point, would be unfortunate.
Brooks’s story has been taken up by internet gadflies. Some have implied that I suppressed this result because it did not fit my agenda, and disproved my own thesis. They have accused me of dishonesty. Now that this true account is available, however, critics who continue to spread the false account will have no excuse.
Biologic Institute is in the business of doing science. We are not interested in point-scoring, name-calling, or internet flame wars. We will continue to do independent, careful science, and to publish our work in peer-reviewed settings for all to read and evaluate. Those who are interested can continue to follow us here and at Evolution News and Views.
 
I’m being up front and honest with you. I can’t take anything from anyone who works for the Discovery Institute seriously.

Sorry.

Sarah x 🙂
:hmmm: Really - that betrays an a priori bias. I am disappointed in you.

At first they were criticized for not doing research. Now that they are you don’t believe it.

Even “Gunther Wagner congratulated Dr. Gauger on doing some great experimental work”.

How about Stuart Newman? Will you accept what he has to say?
 
:hmmm: Really - that betrays an a priori bias. I am disappointed in you.
Well that’s just life I’m afraid. I’ve only got so much time. I’ve spend hundreds of hours reading their stuff on their website, and other creationist and ID websites, watching video of their proponents and so on.

It’s like listening to a really bad singer. You can listen to one album, then another, then another, then another and another and another and another and another… but there will come a point when you have to say, enough. That guy can’t sing.

Now, someone tells me he has a new album out.

I can quite rightly be forgiven for not buying it, or listening to it, based on past experience.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Well that’s just life I’m afraid. I’ve only got so much time. I’ve spend hundreds of hours reading their stuff on their website, and other creationist and ID websites, watching video of their proponents and so on.

It’s like listening to a really bad singer. You can listen to one album, then another, then another, then another and another and another and another and another… but there will come a point when you have to say, enough. That guy can’t sing.

Now, someone tells me he has a new album out.

I can quite rightly be forgiven for not buying it, or listening to it, based on past experience.

Sarah x 🙂
Remember - pray “Jesus, I Trust in You” everyday. 🙂
 
Remember - pray “Jesus, I Trust in You” everyday. 🙂
Thanks for the reminder 😊 I have still to write up my prayer experience. 😊

So much to do, so little time 😊

I’m not praying that prayer daily any more, but true to my word, I did when I was doing the prayer exercise. 👍

Sarah x 🙂
 
Indeed. So you can’t rule out Muller’s explanation. Behe is saying that you can’t remove one component of a structure without the whole structure failing. He is then saying that the only explanation is design. What he is actually saying is that he personally can’t think of any other reason.

If you point out Muller’s explanation to him and ask: ‘Is it possible that his explanation is correct?’ the only credible answer to that is ‘Yes’. As you said yourself: ‘the sheer complexity of the universe makes it impossible to rule out other factors’ and Mullers explanation is a very long way from being complex. In fact, it’s blazingly simple. He has proffered a very simple explanation entirely due to natural cuases.
Bradski:

I’ve read many of the various so called refutations of Behe’s “irreducible complexity” argument. What I find very interesting is that none of them wholly refute the argument. That is, each one leaves rather large back-door escapes from a full committal to the author’s purpose.

For example, Kenneth Miller points out that the earlier version of the eukaryote, the one that had the first five or six amino acid structures found to be present in the final flagellum, and the TTSS, was transitional. This transitional mutation consisted of the first five (or six) amino acid structures that are parts of the complete TTSS apparatus. This, he says, disproves Behe’s contention that the flagellum did not evolve in simple steps, over a long period of time, based upon the efficacy of each of the parts for another purpose. Now, what could possibly be wrong with that? Could it be that Miller left out of consideration each of the first five - six steps, or rather, structures? Oh, and we didn’t even consider the last nine - ten steps (to the flagellum) yet?

Instead, Miller says, “If we are able to search and find an example of a machine with fewer protein parts, contained within the flagellum, that serves a purpose distinct from motility, the claim of irreducible complexity is refuted. As we have also seen, the flagellum does indeed contain such a machine, a protein-secreting apparatus that carries out an important function even in species that lack the flagellum altogether. A scientific idea rises or falls on the weight of the evidence - The Flagellum Unspun - Kenneth Miller”

But that is wrong. Either the evolutionary pathway for the TTSS is itself a product of evolution as well, or the TTSS was formed almost entirely simultaneously as a sort of “bulk mutational evolution event;” otherwise it too underwent evolution and each of its proteins had a functional purpose that enhanced the organism in some way, and thus each mutation survived being cast off. I am not saying that this latter postulation is incorrect, but I am saying that since it isn’t shown to be a product of an evolutionary process, necessary to the organism, why should each mutant part (and its mutational event) survive? Further, where are the transitional organisms that show each step of the development of the pre-TTSS mechanism all the way up to the final TTSS apparatus?

What we are to believe is that the first amino acid structure was probably the result of a mutation. And then, we are to believe that that mutant structure gave rise to another mutant structure. And, that second mutant structure gave rise to a third mutant structure, etc., etc., until voilà, a TTSS apparatus appears that finally has an intrinsic value (as a complete 5 - 6 part apparatus) to the organism. However, until that fifth or sixth mutation of a mutation, none of the prior mutations’ mutations added any known intrinsic value to its immediately prior mutation (and the eukaryote), and, for all intents and purposes, should have been a relatively singular event that is discarded, like a dead weight, in the course of time.

Now, I will admit to not reading all of the literature that has ever come out on this subject, as I simply don’t have that much time. nor do I have the burning inclination. So, if there is an article answering the above questions, somebody please point me to it.

God bless,
jd
 
Ya know, I’ve brought this point up alot on these forums, and it’s a point on which I’ve never received a skeptical response. Any takers here?

Because I, for one, take this as pretty good evidence not only for design, but the identity of the designer. That a religious tradition which predates the Big Bang theory (and modern science altogether) by millenia describes the origin and development of our universe in pretty much identical terms is a fact that demands consideration.
Prodigal:

You might want to scan through the following: Space

I too have been suggesting something along these lines for months, with the only taker and originator of a thesis being Yppop.

God bless,
jd
 
That seems a bit of a stretch. This isn’t just some “idea.” This is the genesis of the universe itself. This is a matter of science confirming the tenets of an ancient religious text whose authors had no understanding of physics.

And, anyway, it would be erroneous to say that it’s simply a case of minds coming up with similar ideas, because modern science didn’t just “come up with the idea.” Physicists didn’t say, “Hey, maybe the universe started as a tiny speck of condensed energy that expanded and condensed into all the matter that makes up everything that has ever existed.” That conclusion was reached via centuries upon centuries of rigorous scientific research. The idea that the universe was expanding from a singularity was deduced from centuries’ worth of ridiculously complex mathematical calculations, corrections, reformulations. It wasn’t just some “hunch” they came up with. The Jews, on the other hand, described it perfectly in one shot before science, as we know it, even existed.

That’s like saying that someone, 3000 years ago, might have just “had the idea” of how to build a space ship.
Prodigal:

Yeah, that would probably exceed the UPB. 👍

God bless,
jd
 
Bradski:

I’ve read many of the various so called refutations of Behe’s “irreducible complexity” argument. What I find very interesting is that none of them wholly refute the argument. That is, each one leaves rather large back-door escapes from a full committal to the author’s purpose.

For example, Kenneth Miller points out that the earlier version of the eukaryote, the one that had the first five or six amino acid structures found to be present in the final flagellum, and the TTSS, was transitional. This transitional mutation consisted of the first five (or six) amino acid structures that are parts of the complete TTSS apparatus. This, he says, disproves Behe’s contention that the flagellum did not evolve in simple steps, over a long period of time, based upon the efficacy of each of the parts for another purpose. Now, what could possibly be wrong with that? Could it be that Miller left out of consideration each of the first five - six steps, or rather, structures? Oh, and we didn’t even consider the last nine - ten steps (to the flagellum) yet?

Instead, Miller says,"If we are able to search and find an example of a machine with fewer protein parts, contained within the flagellum, that serves a purpose distinct from motility, the claim of irreducible complexity is refuted. As we have also seen, the flagellum does indeed contain such a machine, a protein-secreting apparatus that carries out an important function even in species that lack the flagellum altogether. A scientific idea rises or falls on the weight of the evidence - The Flagellum Unspun - Kenneth Miller"But that is wrong. Either the evolutionary pathway for the TTSS is itself a product of evolution as well, or the TTSS was formed almost entirely simultaneously as a sort of “bulk mutational evolution event;” otherwise it too underwent evolution and each of its proteins had a functional purpose that enhanced the organism in some way, and thus each mutation survived being cast off. I am not saying that this latter postulation is incorrect, but I am saying that since it isn’t shown to be a product of an evolutionary process, necessary to the organism, why should each mutant part (and its mutational event) survive? Further, where are the transitional organisms that show each step of the development of the pre-TTSS mechanism all the way up to the final TTSS apparatus?

What we are to believe is that the first amino acid structure was probably the result of a mutation. And then, we are to believe that that mutant structure gave rise to another mutant structure. And, that second mutant structure gave rise to a third mutant structure, etc., etc., until voilà, a TTSS apparatus appears that finally has an intrinsic value (as a complete 5 - 6 part apparatus) to the organism. However, until that fifth or sixth mutation of a mutation, none of the prior mutations’ mutations added any known intrinsic value to its immediately prior mutation (and the eukaryote), and, for all intents and purposes, should have been a relatively singular event that is discarded, like a dead weight, in the course of time.

Now, I will admit to not reading all of the literature that has ever come out on this subject, as I simply don’t have that much time. nor do I have the burning inclination. So, if there is an article answering the above questions, somebody please point me to it.

God bless,
jd
The flagellum came first, the TTSS after.
 
Of course this assumes that a cosmic sequence of events arising from a tiny speck of condensed energy was incomprehensible before science came about.

I don’t really see the rational value of what you are saying. The fact that some individual centuries ago had an similar idea to what science concludes today is simply a coincidence.

Scripture speaks of a seven day creation, and describes nothing about what you or some ancient scribe is talking about.
RR:

But it also spoke of (outer) space as a sort or dome over the earth. In the 13th century, huge blobs of molten hydrogen were not part of the vernacular.

God bless,
jd
 
RR:

But it also spoke of (outer) space as a sort or dome over the earth. In the 13th century, huge blobs of molten hydrogen were not part of the vernacular.

God bless,
jd
The first line of Genesis:

In the beginning - time
God created the heavens - space
and the earth - matter.
 
No. That’s precisely the point. It’s quite odd that a group of people would hold such a view in a world where such an idea was almost unanimously considered ludicrous. The fact that they did would hardly be remarkable if it weren’t historically, by and large, considered the height of lunacy.

The idea of an indivisible parcel of matter is a much more simple bit of logic that requires only the understanding of the impossibility of an infinite regress.

I am saying that the Bible says a lot more than its text lets on, yes. This is not some conspiracy theory. It is Judaic tradition.

Ad hominem.

Because Gerald Schroeder has done extensive research in the fields of Torah scholarship and physics (he’s an MIT certified-and-tenured physicist) and documented, quite rigorously, the correlation of Biblical traditions and modern science, I believe that he makes a convincing case that Scripture describes the creation of the universe much more accurately than the common reader thinks.

It is not a divine revelation of scientific theories of the future. It is a fact of the past. The difference is that the Jews had it long before modern science. It was not hidden. Nahmanides’ works have been publicly available for a long time. That the world chooses to ignore the voices of religious people is its own problem.

And, actually, Catholic tradition (especially from St. Augustine) makes incredibly similar claims as to the development of the universe. Regardless, Catholicism is an extension of Judaism.

I believe it because I have thoroughly studied the case presented for it and believe the evidence is credible.

Why don’t you actually look at the evidence before you say there isn’t any? My few tiny posts here don’t even begin to do justice to the extent of the research that Schroeder has put into this topic.

Tell ya what; start with just this one little article: The Age of the Universe -Gerald Schroeder.

Sarcasm is an easy way out. You’re making a lot of assumptions before even thoroughly investigating the other side of the argument. It’s easy to mock and disparage something with which you have almost zero familiarity.
👍

God bless,
jd
 
It’s nonsense. Schroeder says that space is expanding and time is relative. All well and good. But time is not relative unless it is relative to something.
Bradski:

But that’s precisely it: time is relative to mobile beings in motion.
Apart from making the heavens and the earth on Day 1, everything that Genesis describes happens to the earth. A day on earth is a day on earth. There’s no relativity involved. It would only appear to be millions of years to someone observing what was happening from somewhere else.
This has been discussed ad nauseum herein. You’re way behind the times - no pun intended. 😉
Seven days of creation would only appear to be 15 billion years to someone else now living on the edge of the observable universe.
Or to an intelligible Revelation.

God bless,
jd
 
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