- Status
S
Sarah_Angel
Guest
I would like to know where in the Catechism it says that French Kissing is a mortal sin.
I definitely feel like people are putting too many of their own opinions and guidelines into what kind of kissing they consider to be sinful rather than relying on what the Church actually teaches us.
Passionate kissing doesn’t necessarily cause sexual arousal, or lust.
I definitely feel like people are putting too many of their own opinions and guidelines into what kind of kissing they consider to be sinful rather than relying on what the Church actually teaches us.
Passionate kissing doesn’t necessarily cause sexual arousal, or lust.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Not everything is “contained in the Catechism”…it does not get into every “detail” of the moral life etc…nor is it meant too.
This is where Moral theology that is Faithful to the Church etc goes into…
The Catechism does note though:
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
So it is commonly known that “French kissing” or “Tongue Kissing” as an older moral manual calls it…can lead very much to sexual arousal and sexual pleasure …and thus can often be grave matter to engage in (grave matter for mortal sin) for the unmarried due to being a more very directly arousing action…(the Manual used by confessors for years notes that it is “usually” grave)…it is really something fitting to marriage.
It really is not for the unmarried…despite what our culture and movies say…
(by the way as a woman you need to know that women are slower in this than men…(and more emotional) so what may not be arousing for you…can be highly arousing for a man…as Pope John Paul II pointed out in his book prior to being Pope …Love and Responsibility)
As for the term passionate kissing…(perhaps one could use the term “ardent” kissing) which can embrace both this form of kissing as well as other kinds of kissing …one finds listed in “examinations of conscience” to prepare for confession…for it too can be sinful and often grave.
But do not let the term “passionate” confuse things…this does not mean that one can not chastely and modestly kiss with affection with love…one can…and it can even happen of course that even in such chaste kissing that “indirect” and unintended or not-consented to arousal or sexual pleasure happens…as an unintended side effect which one does not consent to…(while avoiding near occasions) …which can be “not sinful”.
Regarding indirect sexual pleasure: catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=36447
the big problem with ardent kissing and french kissing is that such is more geared to “ignite the fires” hence it can be for marriage …for there the fires can be intentionally ignited…so something to avoided for sure for the unmarried!
S
Sarah_Angel
Guest
Thank you for your post, Bookcat. It’s just that people in this thread were saying stuff like, “French kissing outside of marriage is always a mortal sin, no question.” I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate, although I definitely know that it can lead to mortal sin, which I suppose is fire that you don’t really want to play with.
I haven’t French kissed with my boyfriend, and there isn’t really any “plan to,” lol, but I know people who have done so lightly and claim that it doesn’t “ignite the fire,” so to speak. Strong Catholic people, I might add.
Would an “inordinate enjoyment” be something like constantly wanting to have sex? Or constantly wanting to kiss, even? Or can that translate to simply looking forward to kissing?
Also, does chaste kissing always have to be closed-mouthed and only last for a few seconds at most? I know that sounds like a silly and even an immature question, but this is one of those areas where everyone has something different to say about the matter and I would like a logical explanation as to why or why not.
The area of kissing and affection and passion and lust has been a bit of a struggle for me because it’s really hard to tell sometimes when people are being too scrupulous or too lax. I want to do what the Church teaches, not what individual people teach.
I haven’t French kissed with my boyfriend, and there isn’t really any “plan to,” lol, but I know people who have done so lightly and claim that it doesn’t “ignite the fire,” so to speak. Strong Catholic people, I might add.
Would an “inordinate enjoyment” be something like constantly wanting to have sex? Or constantly wanting to kiss, even? Or can that translate to simply looking forward to kissing?
Also, does chaste kissing always have to be closed-mouthed and only last for a few seconds at most? I know that sounds like a silly and even an immature question, but this is one of those areas where everyone has something different to say about the matter and I would like a logical explanation as to why or why not.
The area of kissing and affection and passion and lust has been a bit of a struggle for me because it’s really hard to tell sometimes when people are being too scrupulous or too lax. I want to do what the Church teaches, not what individual people teach.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Thank you for your post, Bookcat. It’s just that people in this thread were saying stuff like, “French kissing outside of marriage is always a mortal sin, no question.”
even if it not grave matter always and everywhere…I imagine there can be debate there perhaps …but I see no “reason” for it…and its nature is certainly something for marriage…
I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate, although I definitely know that it can lead to mortal sin, which I suppose is fire that you don’t really want to play with.
yes…not something really for the unmarried…
I haven’t French kissed with my boyfriend, and there isn’t really any “plan to,” lol, but I know people who have done so lightly and claim that it doesn’t “ignite the fire,” so to speak. Strong Catholic people, I might add.
I do not see any reason to do so…except to seek some sort of sexual pleasure…which of course would be grave…
Would an “inordinate enjoyment” be something like constantly wanting to have sex?
Not sure the question exactly. But I think you are referring to the CCC about lust…an "inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure is ANY seeking or consenting to sexual pleasure outside marriage…such is ONLY for marriage…see also catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=36447 and remember too that some things are simply direct seeking of such…and can not be done by the unmarried…
Or constantly wanting to kiss, even? Or can that translate to simply looking forward to kissing?
Kissing is not per se wrong…yes one can "kiss too much…or certainly too long! and there is nothing per se wrong with wanting to kiss your boyfriend in a chaste and modest way…for the affection (not seeking s.p. of course)
Also, does chaste kissing always have to be closed-mouthed and only last for a few seconds at most?
This is a hard one to gage …is it possible that one kiss with lips slightly open and it be chaste…(not with tongue) (not tightly closed like like kissing the head of a child)…I would think so…within reason…(I hesitate to give such an answer not knowing exactly what is meant…and such things can perhaps vary) but perhaps each person needs to judge …and it really is hard to gage if a second is too short or too long Hehe…but certainly I would avoid “prolonged” then one is getting into dangerous area
I know that sounds like a silly and even an immature question, but this is one of those areas where everyone has something different to say about the matter and I would like a logical explanation as to why or why not.
I think there are some obvious limits…and then there are the principles to apply…one does not take out a stop watch and say ok “three seconds-go!” …but one must live by FAITH…VIRTUE and reason…particularly the virtues of temperance…and modesty not to mention chastity…without being lax on the one side or scrupling on the other…
The area of kissing and affection and passion and lust has been a bit of a struggle for me because it’s really hard to tell sometimes when people are being too scrupulous or too lax. I want to do what the Church teaches, not what individual people teach.
What you will find in these sorts of things…are the general teachings of the Church…like “sexual pleasure is only for the married…and outside marriage it is lust…” (and of course the obvious things…like no fornication etc) and the principles of moral theology…and the experience of others…such as a good confessor…your not going to get a “ok it is fine to kiss for 2.6 seconds…”
I believe there is info here on this site…see above the tab chastity…and also I would add it is perhaps best not to seek “how far can I go…”
we must seek of course to above all to follow Jesus…to live by virtue…to live in Christ
even if it not grave matter always and everywhere…I imagine there can be debate there perhaps …but I see no “reason” for it…and its nature is certainly something for marriage…
I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate, although I definitely know that it can lead to mortal sin, which I suppose is fire that you don’t really want to play with.
yes…not something really for the unmarried…
I haven’t French kissed with my boyfriend, and there isn’t really any “plan to,” lol, but I know people who have done so lightly and claim that it doesn’t “ignite the fire,” so to speak. Strong Catholic people, I might add.
I do not see any reason to do so…except to seek some sort of sexual pleasure…which of course would be grave…
Would an “inordinate enjoyment” be something like constantly wanting to have sex?
Not sure the question exactly. But I think you are referring to the CCC about lust…an "inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure is ANY seeking or consenting to sexual pleasure outside marriage…such is ONLY for marriage…see also catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=36447 and remember too that some things are simply direct seeking of such…and can not be done by the unmarried…
Or constantly wanting to kiss, even? Or can that translate to simply looking forward to kissing?
Kissing is not per se wrong…yes one can "kiss too much…or certainly too long! and there is nothing per se wrong with wanting to kiss your boyfriend in a chaste and modest way…for the affection (not seeking s.p. of course)
Also, does chaste kissing always have to be closed-mouthed and only last for a few seconds at most?
This is a hard one to gage …is it possible that one kiss with lips slightly open and it be chaste…(not with tongue) (not tightly closed like like kissing the head of a child)…I would think so…within reason…(I hesitate to give such an answer not knowing exactly what is meant…and such things can perhaps vary) but perhaps each person needs to judge …and it really is hard to gage if a second is too short or too long Hehe…but certainly I would avoid “prolonged” then one is getting into dangerous area
I know that sounds like a silly and even an immature question, but this is one of those areas where everyone has something different to say about the matter and I would like a logical explanation as to why or why not.
I think there are some obvious limits…and then there are the principles to apply…one does not take out a stop watch and say ok “three seconds-go!” …but one must live by FAITH…VIRTUE and reason…particularly the virtues of temperance…and modesty not to mention chastity…without being lax on the one side or scrupling on the other…
The area of kissing and affection and passion and lust has been a bit of a struggle for me because it’s really hard to tell sometimes when people are being too scrupulous or too lax. I want to do what the Church teaches, not what individual people teach.
What you will find in these sorts of things…are the general teachings of the Church…like “sexual pleasure is only for the married…and outside marriage it is lust…” (and of course the obvious things…like no fornication etc) and the principles of moral theology…and the experience of others…such as a good confessor…your not going to get a “ok it is fine to kiss for 2.6 seconds…”
I believe there is info here on this site…see above the tab chastity…and also I would add it is perhaps best not to seek “how far can I go…”
we must seek of course to above all to follow Jesus…to live by virtue…to live in Christ
S
Sarah_Angel
Guest
I read Jason Evert’s book If You Really Loved Me multiple times when I was in high school, and I’ve picked it up again on a few occasions since. I’ve read the French kissing one recently and I liked the answer that he gave because he didn’t directly condemn French kissing but suggested not to engage in it.
The people who do French kiss lightly and say that it doesn’t give them sexual pleasure say that they do it because it’s their way of showing affection toward their significant other. They’re careful about not wanting to tread further. This isn’t something that I would recommend for most people but if they’re honestly convicted that they aren’t sinning, then perhaps they aren’t.
I have kissed open mouth no tongue with my boyfriend, but for a long time. Some time after we kissed I had a feeling that we were treading into dangerous waters and that we should probably withhold ourselves from kissing that long in most future circumstances, and something tells me that he had that feeling too. I think the main concern is actually moving too fast too soon into the relationship and I don’t want us to be stuck in a rut.
Thanks again for your answers, they helped confirm my feelings about this particular situation and I’ll see what I can do about starting a conversation about slowing things down.
The people who do French kiss lightly and say that it doesn’t give them sexual pleasure say that they do it because it’s their way of showing affection toward their significant other. They’re careful about not wanting to tread further. This isn’t something that I would recommend for most people but if they’re honestly convicted that they aren’t sinning, then perhaps they aren’t.
I have kissed open mouth no tongue with my boyfriend, but for a long time. Some time after we kissed I had a feeling that we were treading into dangerous waters and that we should probably withhold ourselves from kissing that long in most future circumstances, and something tells me that he had that feeling too. I think the main concern is actually moving too fast too soon into the relationship and I don’t want us to be stuck in a rut.
Thanks again for your answers, they helped confirm my feelings about this particular situation and I’ll see what I can do about starting a conversation about slowing things down.
B
Bookcat
Guest
I read Jason Evert’s book If You Really Loved Me multiple times when I was in high school, and I’ve picked it up again on a few occasions since. I’ve read the French kissing one recently and I liked the answer that he gave because he didn’t directly condemn French kissing but suggested not to engage in it. (I would look to other things he has written…I imagine he would say it is not for the unmarried)
The people who do French kiss lightly and say that it doesn’t give them sexual pleasure say that they do it because it’s their way of showing affection toward their significant other.
Sorry…I can not see how “putting ones tongue in each others mouth or touching tongues” is a “showing affection” for unmarried persons…try holding hands or writing a love letter…
Here is an example of a response from I believe a parish priest:
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=446085&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2009&Author=&Keyword=french+kissing&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=4&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
This article too can be helpful…though I would twique it a little…(for example under the section “pure intent” if the person starts to enjoy…it can already thus be a sin…if they consent etc …just to clarify…)
ewtn.com/expert/answers/dating.htm
Also be aware…women and men are…a different…what may not effect a woman at the moment may have been effecting the man…
The people who do French kiss lightly and say that it doesn’t give them sexual pleasure say that they do it because it’s their way of showing affection toward their significant other.
Sorry…I can not see how “putting ones tongue in each others mouth or touching tongues” is a “showing affection” for unmarried persons…try holding hands or writing a love letter…
Here is an example of a response from I believe a parish priest:
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=446085&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2009&Author=&Keyword=french+kissing&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=4&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
This article too can be helpful…though I would twique it a little…(for example under the section “pure intent” if the person starts to enjoy…it can already thus be a sin…if they consent etc …just to clarify…)
ewtn.com/expert/answers/dating.htm
Also be aware…women and men are…a different…what may not effect a woman at the moment may have been effecting the man…
S
Sarah_Angel
Guest
Jason Evert basically did say that it’s not recommended for the unmarried and that there is blessing in giving up French kissing until marriage. He didn’t, however, directly call it sinful outside the context of marriage.
I do understand better now why people would say that it’s not for marriage, however. Unfortunately I’ve recently learned of the consequences of French kissing too early in a romantic relationship, not by my own experience but by someone else’s. It’s hard to go back from that, you know?
I do understand better now why people would say that it’s not for marriage, however. Unfortunately I’ve recently learned of the consequences of French kissing too early in a romantic relationship, not by my own experience but by someone else’s. It’s hard to go back from that, you know?
- Status