Conditional Baptism

[Jsmith17]

I am a baptized Catholic in need of a conditional baptism due to lack of evidence etc…
My Priest/RCIA team is unfamiliar with the concept and simply wants to count me as an unbaptized catechumen.
I am seeking online literature on conditional baptism which I can show to my Priest/RCIA team, specifically:

The Rite book National Statutes #30 and #32-37
or any other hard evidence I can give them.

Thank you.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I am a baptized Catholic in need of a conditional baptism due to lack of evidence etc…
My Priest/RCIA team is unfamiliar with the concept and simply wants to count me as an unbaptized catechumen.
I am seeking online literature on conditional baptism which I can show to my Priest/RCIA team, specifically:

The Rite book National Statutes #30 and #32-37
or any other hard evidence I can give them.

Thank you.

They would be absolutely wrong if they re-Baptized you. A Second Baptism is absolutely forbidden. So if there is the possibility that you were Baptized, you cannot be treated as a Catechumen. If you were Baptized Catholic why is there no documentation available?

 

[puzzleannie]

please ask him to contact the priest in the diocese who is in charge of RCIA and sacraments in general so he can get educated in what he should have had in Sacraments 101 in the seminary. being a bit more charitable, some priests simply have not been instructed in the RCIA rites, and could benefit from a workshop on the topic, hope he gets that chance, and hope your gentle nudges will be the impetus for him to seek that education.

If you can get statement from witness to attest facts of your baptism, that will be enough. Suggest you also call the chancery and find the priest (probably the same one) in charge of oversight of sacraments and liturgy and ask him, and his secretary is probably knowledgeable and will do the work, to help you locate your Catholic baptismal record. with the internet that is easier than ever.

 

[cameron_lansing]

Two canons apply to this situation, and the pastor would apply them after consultation with the diocesan bishop or his staff, presumably including the canonists in the curia. The law is found in the code rather than the National Statutes, since the latter merely reflects the code and is derived from it.

Canon 869 §1. If there is a doubt whether one has been baptized or whether baptism was validly conferred and the doubt remains after serious investigation, baptism is to be conferred conditionally. §2. Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community are not to be baptized conditionally unless, after an examination of the matter and the form of words used in the conferral of baptism and after a consideration of the intention of an adult baptized person and of the minister of the baptism, a serious reason for doubting the validity of the baptism is present. §3. If the conferral or the validity of the baptism in the cases mentioned in § § 1 and 2 remains doubtful, baptism is not to be conferred until the doctrine of the sacrament of baptism is explained to the person, if an adult, and the reasons for the doubtful validity of the baptism have been explained to the adult recipient or, in the case of an infant, to the parents.

Canon 876 If it is not prejudicial to anyone, to prove the conferral of baptism, the declaration of a single witness who is above suspicion suffices or the oath of the baptized person, if the baptism was received at an adult age.

Note that this witness need not have been a sponsor (godparent) or Christian witness, but merely one present at the baptism who had attained the use of reason and knew what happened.

In particular the National Statutes (30-37) treat the matter of non Catholic baptism, so one really need only go to the code.

No. 30 makes it explicit that “Those who have already been baptized in another Church or ecclesial community should not be treated as catechumens or so designated.,” so we have that as a context for what is subsequently addressed. Though, iIf you still want them, PM me.

Your situation sounds more like n. 25, provided there is no doubt about your Catholic baptism after serious investigation: "25. Although baptized adult Catholics who have never received catechetical instruction or been admitted to the sacraments of confirmation and eucharist are not catechumens, some elements of the usual catechumenal formation are appropriate to their preparation for the sacraments, in accord with the norms of the ritual, “Preparation of Uncatechized Adults for Confirmation and Eucharist.”.

 

[Jsmith17]

Thank you all for the replies. Br Rich, there is no documentation due to the fact that it was an emergency baptism administered by a Catholic nurse who delievered me. She neglected to report it to the local parish and therefore there is no formal documentation.

 

[Phemie]

Thank you all for the replies. Br Rich, there is no documentation due to the fact that it was an emergency baptism administered by a Catholic nurse who delievered me. She neglected to report it to the local parish and therefore there is no formal documentation.

We were trained as nurses to always record an emergency baptism on the baby’s chart (and that was a secular nursing school) for the obvious reason that it might be the only record. In fact we were to chart Last Rites & clergy visits too. I know that today that might not be done but perhaps if you might find it in the documents of your birth?

 

[IrishAm]

I am a baptized Catholic in need of a conditional baptism due to lack of evidence etc…
My Priest/RCIA team is unfamiliar with the concept and simply wants to count me as an unbaptized catechumen.
I am seeking online literature on conditional baptism which I can show to my Priest/RCIA team, specifically:

The Rite book National Statutes #30 and #32-37
or any other hard evidence I can give them.

Thank you.

Does he actually wish you to be baptized (again, perhaps) – as seems to be the assumption of most posters – or does he simply want you to join the unbaptized catchumen due to your lack of catechesis?

He may just want you in the class, not necessary in the water . . .

(A conditional baptism does appear to be in order if there is no witnesses or documentation. Did your mother or father see it occur; could they so state?)

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Thank you all for the replies. Br Rich, there is no documentation due to the fact that it was an emergency baptism administered by a Catholic nurse who delievered me. She neglected to report it to the local parish and therefore there is no formal documentation.

As Decaon said someone who was there can sometimes provide the necessary witness. Dr.or other nurse or your father? Obama’s grandmother witnessed his birth in Kenya, maybe your grandmother was also there.

 

[FrDavid96]

As Decaon said someone who was there can sometimes provide the necessary witness. Dr.or other nurse or your father? Obama’s grandmother witnessed his birth in Kenya, maybe your grandmother was also there.

And let’s not forget, if there is any doubt about Obama’s birth, we could just ask one of the Wise Men to testify.

 

[FrDavid96]

I am a baptized Catholic in need of a conditional baptism due to lack of evidence etc…
My Priest/RCIA team is unfamiliar with the concept and simply wants to count me as an unbaptized catechumen.
I am seeking online literature on conditional baptism which I can show to my Priest/RCIA team, specifically:

The Rite book National Statutes #30 and #32-37
or any other hard evidence I can give them.

Thank you.

JSMITH,

Here’s my take on things. I think you should pursue every possible means to prove that you were baptised. But keep in mind that the pastor has a responsibility that if he isn’t satisfied that a baptism took place, it’s his obligation to baptise you condidtionally. It’s also his obligation to do his best to investigate, but he comes up empty, he has no choice but to baptise conditionally.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

And let’s not forget, if there is any doubt about Obama’s birth, we could just ask one of the Wise Men to testify.

I meant that his grandmother might have been at his birth, not Obama’s.

 

[Ruthie]

There’s a new answer by Fr. Serpa, on conditional Baptism, on Ask an Apoligist.

God bless us all,

Ruthie

 

[Jsmith17]

Yes, Fr Serpa’s answer seems to be the wisest (and easiest) thing to do in this situation.
My only concern is that if I am conditionally baptized publicly at the vigil instead of privately before it, the distinction between candidate and catechumen may be blurred. Am I to participate in the rite of acceptance or the rite of welcoming? Am I to participate in the Scrutinies or not? Is the sacrament of confession available to me now, or must I wait until after the vigil? (Fr Serpa answered this one with conditional absolution).

I intentionally gave a brief description of the scenario in an attempt to keep it brief, but it seems several questions have arised because of this, so I will give some further background:

The nurse who performed the baptism is my grandmother. She recieved no training from Kaiser or the Church on how to baptize, and therefore she is unsure whether she did it correctly. (She is also in her 70s and her memory isn’t quite what it used to be). There are no witnesses except her which remember it because it happened amidst the chaos of their attempts to save my life. So, in my case conditional baptism has been ruled necessary by my priest.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

There’s a new answer by Fr. Serpa, on conditional Baptism, on Ask an Apoligist.

God bless us all,

Ruthie

I don’t agree with Fr. Serpa’s answer. “Conditional absolution” is a new one. I never heard of that in any Church documents? Conditional Baptism, ASAP, in private with only the Minister, subject, and a witness is all that is necessary, Contact your diocese!

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Yes, Fr Serpa’s answer seems to be the wisest (and easiest) thing to do in this situation.
My only concern is that if I am conditionally baptized publicly at the vigil instead of privately before it, the distinction between candidate and catechumen may be blurred. Am I to participate in the rite of acceptance or the rite of welcoming? Am I to participate in the Scrutinies or not? Is the sacrament of confession available to me now, or must I wait until after the vigil? (Fr Serpa answered this one with conditional absolution).

I intentionally gave a brief description of the scenario in an attempt to keep it brief, but it seems several questions have arised because of this, so I will give some further background:

The nurse who performed the baptism is my grandmother. She recieved no training from Kaiser or the Church on how to baptize, and therefore she is unsure whether she did it correctly. (She is also in her 70s and her memory isn’t quite what it used to be). There are no witnesses except her which remember it because it happened amidst the chaos of their attempts to save my life. So, in my case conditional baptism has been ruled necessary by my priest.

Correct! Conditional Baptism is NEVER celebrated in public because it can confuse the faithful, thinking that you are being Re-Baptized. Very little is found on Conditional Baptism because when necessary it is done quickly and privately to correct the situation. You would then be a Candidate, Rite of Welcome, maybe full Catechesis (if necessary) no Rite of Election or Scrutinies, Confession (on your own), Confirmation and Holy Comunion at your Reception into the Catholic Church.

 

[FrDavid96]

Yes, Fr Serpa’s answer seems to be the wisest (and easiest) thing to do in this situation.
My only concern is that if I am conditionally baptized publicly at the vigil instead of privately before it, the distinction between candidate and catechumen may be blurred. Am I to participate in the rite of acceptance or the rite of welcoming? Am I to participate in the Scrutinies or not? Is the sacrament of confession available to me now, or must I wait until after the vigil? (Fr Serpa answered this one with conditional absolution).

I intentionally gave a brief description of the scenario in an attempt to keep it brief, but it seems several questions have arised because of this, so I will give some further background:

The nurse who performed the baptism is my grandmother. She recieved no training from Kaiser or the Church on how to baptize, and therefore she is unsure whether she did it correctly. (She is also in her 70s and her memory isn’t quite what it used to be). There are no witnesses except her which remember it because it happened amidst the chaos of their attempts to save my life. So, in my case conditional baptism has been ruled necessary by my priest.

JSmith,

I don’t want to interfere with your pastor, but let me offer my thoughts.

If I were in his position, and received a notarized (civil notary) statement from your grandmother that you had been privately baptised “in the name of the Father…” using water that would satisfy me.

Even if her memory is “not quite what it used to be” that’s not the same thing as lacking “sound mind”.

Please clarify. Are you saying that she specifically does not remember? You said that she’s unaware that she did it correctly (or did she say that years ago?). To me that implies that she does in fact remember doing it. Given her age, I would tend to presume that she might be thinking something like “was I supposed to use Holy Water?” I don’t know, I’m only offering some thoughs.

 

[Jsmith17]

JSmith,

I don’t want to interfere with your pastor, but let me offer my thoughts.

If I were in his position, and received a notarized (civil notary) statement from your grandmother that you had been privately baptised “in the name of the Father…” using water that would satisfy me.

Even if her memory is “not quite what it used to be” that’s not the same thing as lacking “sound mind”.

Please clarify. Are you saying that she specifically does not remember? You said that she’s unaware that she did it correctly (or did she say that years ago?). To me that implies that she does in fact remember doing it. Given her age, I would tend to presume that she might be thinking something like “was I supposed to use Holy Water?” I don’t know, I’m only offering some thoughs.

She remembers doing it, but cannot remember if she used the proper formula.

 

[FrDavid96]

She remembers doing it, but cannot remember if she used the proper formula.

That’s a very important point. What does she herself mean by "the proper formula?’ I’m not trying to be silly, but please be very specific in what you’re saying.

Let me explain: given her age, she may have a very strict definition of what is meant by “proper formula” and that definition might not necessarily be precisely what the Church defines as proper formula.

Again, I’m not trying to be silly. I mean this with all respect.

 

[Jsmith17]

That’s a very important point. What does she herself mean by "the proper formula?’ I’m not trying to be silly, but please be very specific in what you’re saying.

Let me explain: given her age, she may have a very strict definition of what is meant by “proper formula” and that definition might not necessarily be precisely what the Church defines as proper formula.

Again, I’m not trying to be silly. I mean this with all respect.

Yes of course.

When I intially asked her about it she said she used the trinitarian formula and water. But, when asked to write it down to give as evidence to the priest she became uneasy and claimed no longer to remember whether or not she used water.

One of two things is happening:

1. What she says is true and she cannot remember.
2. She believes that because the baptism was not performed by a priest it is invalid, and sees the only way to have me baptized “properly” is to say she never did. (This is evidenced by the many times she petitioned my parents to have a priest baptize me as a young child.) In my conversation with her, she claims to have “conditionally baptized” me with the intent that a priest would do it properly later on. I explained to her that it didn’t work this way and the first baptism would be considered valid. This was when her memory became fuzzy.

Nevertheless, I believe my priest is correct in ruling conditional baptism as necessary in my case.

 

[FrDavid96]

Yes of course.

When I intially asked her about it she said she used the trinitarian formula and water. But, when asked to write it down to give as evidence to the priest she became uneasy and claimed no longer to remember whether or not she used water.

One of two things is happening:

1. What she says is true and she cannot remember.
2. She believes that because the baptism was not performed by a priest it is invalid, and sees the only way to have me baptized “properly” is to say she never did. (This is evidenced by the many times she petitioned my parents to have a priest baptize me as a young child.) In my conversation with her, she claims to have “conditionally baptized” me with the intent that a priest would do it properly later on. I explained to her that it didn’t work this way and the first baptism would be considered valid. This was when her memory became fuzzy.

Nevertheless, I believe my priest is correct in ruling conditional baptism as necessary in my case.

I sincerely sympathize with your situation. I can’t imagine what it is like to “know” that you were validly baptized, yet to endure the
slight of having it repeated. Take some comfort in knowing that when the priest says “if you have never been baptized…” he realy does mean that. It’s in God’s hands. I don’t see where the priest has any other choice in the matter either.