Conditionalists & Annihilationists In ECF, Eastern & Syriac, Catholic, Protestant & Churches In General - What in the

[NuntioBusiness]

An additional citation on the Arabians, and others who were their ‘spiritual’ successors:

“… Browne says, “… the Arabians, that the soules of men perished with their bodies, but should both bee raised againe at the Last Day” (I.7) … it was far from obsolete. In fact, during the Reformation both psychosomnolence–the belief that the soul sleeps until the resurrection–and thnetopsychism–the belief that the body and soul both die and then both rise again–were quite common; Martin Luther himself appears to have subscribed to a form of psychosomnolence. 33 The northern Italian humanists, including those centered in the University of Padua, were also notably skeptical about the immortality of the soul, and it was their vocal doubts that led to the fifth Lateran Council’s condemnation of psychosomnolence as a heresy in 1515-1517. 34 … Browne is familiar with the works of at least one of the Paduan skeptics, Pietro Pomponazzi. In De Immortalitate Animae (1516), Pomponazzi contended that, contra Aquinas, all the evidence pointed toward the mortality of the soul. … declaring that … the immortality of the soul could not be proved by philosophy …” - Confessions of Faith in Early Modern England by Brooke Conti, page 120 - Confessions of Faith in Early Modern England - Brooke Conti - Google Books

“… Dupin says, that under the reign of Philip, an assembly of bishops was held on account of some Arabians, who maintained that the souls of men died, and were raised again with their bodies … Tatian was of the same opinion with those Arabians + …” - Disquisitions Relating To Matter And Spirit: To Which Is Added The History Of The Philosophical Doctrine Concerning The Origin Of The Soul, And The Nature Of Matter; With It Influence On Christianity, Especially With Respect To The Doctrine Of The Preexistence Of Christ, By Joseph Priestly, LL.D. F.R.S., Vol. I., The Second Edition, Improved And Enlarged, Birmingham, Printed By Pearson And Rollason, For J, Johnson, No. 72, St. Paul’s Church-Yard, LONDON, MDCCLXXXII (1782)., page 273 - Disquisitions Relating to Matter and Spirit: To which is Added the History ... - Joseph Priestley - Google Books

 

[NuntioBusiness]

Polycrates : What does this one even have to do with annihilationism at all? The simple fact it says “fell asleep”? That’s just a term for someone dying.

I am not saying that all of them taught annihilationism (which doctrine btw, wouldn’t be when a person first dies, which was what Polycrates, etal. was talking about) by the quotes cited. I am only sharing what the quotes say, not what they do not say. Please try to reduce the amount of time spent in overstating what I have shared in documentation, or from assuming something about my position on them.

Look at what Polycrates was holding to along with “bishops” (plural) of Asia:

“… But the bishops of Asia, led by Polycrates, decided to hold to the old custom handed down to them…”

Notice, there was something which was “old”, even “handed down to them” (meaning from the earlier apostles) and he was contrasting it to that which was ‘new’. now, please follow back to what Polycrates stated that he, and the bishops of Asia, represented believed. This is the point.

 

[NuntioBusiness]

Exactly where this declaration of “nearly 2/3” comes from is unclear,

Actually what I said was, “That nearly 2/3’s to all the ECF, Syriac, Eastern & others were conditionalists and/or annihilationist?”

So, I am not even saying 2/3’s, but rather 2/3’s is a minimum end limit, not the upper limit, as “to all” implies. Please take notice of the very carefully placed division bar between “and/or”. This makes all the difference when you attempt to reply to the materials and what is being stated. Thank you.

 

[NuntioBusiness]

However, let’s continue just past the part that was cut off:

Actually it was only “cut off” as this forum (that is going to be closing soon, end of the month), has serious limitations (one of its serious detractors, among others, like personalities). I have the full quote here. I was also chastised earlier by another, who did not like lengthy quotations. I could have divided it, but wanted them in the same space. Please, I pray you are not impugning motive for the elipses other than what I have just provided in all honesty and earnestness?

Ps. I even left the original link so that persons could trace back and read.

 

[NuntioBusiness]

Clementine Homilies : Even if this does indicate annihilationism, the Homilies are spurious and of questionable orthodoxy.

Who is saying that they are “spurious” though and ‘unorthodox’. The earlier writers or the ‘modern’ ones? Why do you think that is, in the light of what is presented? Also, why do you think they are now considered ‘spurious’, if they didn’t actually teach annihilationism? The quote is pretty clear.

 

[NuntioBusiness]

So essentially, arguing that the quote in question proves Irenaeus subscribed to annihilationism appears to rely entirely on a not entirely clear passage that’s taken from a subpar Latin translation of the original. In my view, this cannot be considered particularly effective proof.

I also found this page that, while not mentioning the translation issue, says that to appeal to this as proof of Irenaeus being an annihilationist is misunderstanding it:

Did you even read the whole article? It cites mostly others about Irenaeus, not Irenaeus himself (though lightly sprinkled among all the hooplah), and when it does it cites Irenaeus in the same manner as I cited, which you just stated was bad Latin, and “not entirely clear passage” (well how quaint and convenient).

Irenaeus on most places which seem to teach non-annihilation, is simply citing Bible texts, which when studied in their own context, and history, do teach it. In other words, men are utilizing Irenaeus wrongly, but not in the way your link suggests. - Here is an article that shows this - Deprived of continuance: Irenaeus the conditionalist | Rethinking Hell

Look, did you want to discuss Irenaeus and the citation itself (as in demonstrate where it is actually bad Latin?? or ‘misunderstood’?), or did you want me to discuss that ‘Wall O Text’, or TL,DR (which I actually did look at btw) as others are fond of saying? Yikes, and I was accused of lengthy … woah bro.

 

[NuntioBusiness]

Justin Martyr : Look at the quotes offered from Justin. “Those who have appeared worthy of God die no more, but others are punished as long as God wills them to exist and be punished.” “The soul is not in its own nature immortal.” You may notice that while these imply the possibility of annihilationism, they still do not confirm it. After all, “as long as God wills them to exist and be punished” could still mean “permanently” if God never stops willing them to exist, and “the soul is not in its own nature immortal” does not mean that all souls be made immortal by the will of God. At best this can be seen as raising the possibility of annihilationism, but is not expressing belief in it.

Oh, I looked carefully, and read unto the bottom:

"… Justin:

… For those things which exist after God, or shall at any time exist, these have the nature of decay, and are such as may be blotted out and cease to exist ; for God alone is unbegotten and incorruptible, and therefore He is God, but all other things after Him are created and corruptible. For this reason souls both die and are punished : since, if they were unbegotten, …" - Dialogue With Trypho, Chapter 5 - CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 1-9 (Justin Martyr)

The connection with “punished”, and “may be blotted out and cease to exist”, is pretty clear in what Justin meant by, “those who have appeared worthy of God die no more, but others are punished as long as God wills them to exist and be punished.”

Even yourself allow that there is room for implying the “possibility” that Justin taught annihilationism, but the previous quotations, in conjunction with that, make it pretty certain, though it is not a 2+2=4 statement, but rather that which is pieced together in his statement (as you say ‘implied’).

I understand what Justin said about the non-innate immortality. I wasn’t questioning that. What I was pointing to was the second portion of the non-immortality (annihilation, “cease to exist”), not the other.

 

[NuntioBusiness]

This brings me to another point which I thought was rather interesting, the battle between the Iconclasts and the Iconofiles:

Iconclasts (Icon Breakers) and Iconofiles (Icon Makers), and why the Iconclasts did what they did, sleep of the soul, while not perfectly represented is close to what scripture taught, in the Syriac and Byzantine Churches:

“… Under the entry of 765/66, Theophanes writes: “ Everywhere he [Emperor Constantine V] rejected as being useless, both in writing and orally, the intercession of the holy Virgin, the Mother of God, and of all the saints, thanks to which all manner of help wells forth for us. He suppressed and obliterated their relics ” ( Theophanis Chronographia , ed. C. de Boor, Leipzig, 1883–1885, repr. Hildesheim, 1963, p. 439; trans. C. Mango, and R. Scott, The Chronicle of Theophanes Confessor , Oxford, 1997, p. 607). For the rejection of saints’ intercession, cf. The Life of Stephen the Younger , 29: πάμπολλα δὲ αὐτῶν βλασφημησάντων καὶ κατὰ τῶν ἁγίων καὶ τῆς ἀχράντου Θεοτόκου αὐτῶν χωρησάντων, ὡς βοηθεῖν μετὰ θάνατον μὴ δυναμένης ( La Vie d’Etienne le Jeune par Etienne le Diacre, ed. M.-F. Auzepy (Birmingham Byzantine and Ottoman Monographs, 3), Aldershot, 1997, p. 127.24–26); the rejection of the intercession of the Theotokos after her death is mentioned in the Adversus Constantinum Cabalinum , in PG 95, col. 337CD. …” - “Angels in the Guise of Saints”: A Syrian Tradition in Constantinople by Vladimir Baranov, page 5 - “Angels in the Guise of Saints”: A Syrian Tradition in Constantinople in: Scrinium Volume 12 Issue 1 (2016)

 

[NuntioBusiness]

“… Instead, alluding to the future general resurrection, the Iconoclasts seem to accuse the Iconophiles of some sort of magical practise, aimed at “resurrecting” the saints [page 9-10] on their icons and treating them as present here and now in a prayerful communication , which is reinforced by contrasting the (“correct”) views of the Iconoclasts patiently waiting for the resurrection to celebrate it with the glorified saints , and the Iconophiles, “insulting” the saints by prematurely representing them through dead (“unresurrected”) matter.14

We can propose a possible explanation in the old Antiochean doctrine on the “sleep of souls.”15 This “sleep” means that the soul of the deceased person, be he good or bad, is kept deprived of all sensation in utter inactivity from the moment of the death of its body until the Judgement, when, after the general resurrection , the souls will be joined to their bodies and everybody will receive the deserved reward or punishment. If this is the case, the meaning of both fragments becomes clear: according to Iconoclasts, the souls of the saints are in the state of sleep waiting for the general resurrection when they will reconnect with bodies and shine in great glory which they gain by their earthly feats. Until then they cannot be of any help for those who address them in prayers before the relics or icons – their prayers are not heard since hearing as a corporal sense is not available to the sleeping soul . By depicting the saints on the icons and appealing to them in prayers and supplications, the Iconophiles attempt in vain to “activate” the inactive souls of the departed (even, though, definitely righteous) people . …

[to be continued with citation in next post, apologies, it almost fit]

 

[NuntioBusiness]

[notation] 15 There were at least two trends behind the idea of the post mortem inactivity of the soul: the sleep of the soul and the dissolution of the soul with its subsequent resurrection together with the body. The thnetopsychists are mentioned by Origen in his Dialogue with Heraclides ( Entretien d’Origene avec Heraclide , ed. J. Scherer (SC, 67), Paris, 1960, p. 76.16–78.20); Eusebius of Caesarea, Historia Ecclesiastica , 6.37: “… others arose in Arabia, putting forward a doctrine foreign to the truth. They said that during the present time the human soul dies and perishes with the body, but that at the time of the resurrection they will be renewed together ” ( Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church , series 2, vol. 1, Eusebius. Church History. Life of Constantine. Oration in Praise of Constantine , ed. P. Schaff and H. Wall, Grand Rapids, MI, 1965, p. 279; John of Damascus, Liber de Haeresibus , 90, Die Schriften des Johannes von Damaskos , ed. B. Kotter, vol. 4 (PTS, 22), Berlin – New York, 1981, p. 57; see also N. Constas, “An Apology for the Cult of Saints in Late Antiquity: Eustratius Presbyter of Constantinople, On the State of Souls after Death ( CPG 7522)*,” JECS , 10.2 (2002), n. 14, p. 273, n. 27, p. 278 on the two groups mentioned in Eustratius the Presbyter.” - “Angels in the Guise of Saints”: A Syrian Tradition in Constantinople by Vladimir Baranov, pages 9-10, with Notation - “Angels in the Guise of Saints”: A Syrian Tradition in Constantinople in: Scrinium Volume 12 Issue 1 (2016)

 

[BartholomewB]

You’re dodging the question. This looks like yet another instance of a covert SDA coming to CAF to preach the doctrine of “soul sleep” while dishonestly pretending to be acting from other motives. It happens quite often.

 

[NuntioBusiness]

You’re dodging the question. This looks like yet another instance of a covert SDA coming to CAF to preach the doctrine of “soul sleep” while dishonestly pretending to be acting from other motives. It happens quite often.

I am not “dodging the question”. I asked you to define what you mean when you ask, “Am I a Seventh-day Adventist”, by “What does a Seventh-day Adventist believe?”

How could I possibly answer such a question as you gave, if I have no idea what you refer to when you ask the question? What is the definition of a Seventh-day Adventist, and what does such believe? (PS. If you explain your question by defintion, I can faithfully answer your question once I understand your meaning.)

Am I being accused of something by the question?

 

[NuntioBusiness]

coming to CAF to preach the doctrine of “soul sleep”

Bro. Barth, I am citing historical documents. I am citing what those documents taught about what the persons in them believed.

Did you see the part where I pointed to the tradition being handed down from old time (a la Polycrates, etal.), which was coming into conflict with the ‘modern’ Philosophies of the Greeks?

 

[NuntioBusiness]

You’re dodging the question. This looks like yet another instance of a covert SDA coming to CAF to preach the doctrine of “soul sleep” while dishonestly pretending to be acting from other motives. It happens quite often.

Finally, let’s say I was a juniper bug (able to type and reason of course). What does it have to do with the historical materials and their theological position? I didn’t write it. I am only sharing it for discussion.

PS. I even said, “Look, I am not telling anyone what to do.”

PPS. As for instance, I believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ. Does it make me an Anglican?
I believe in Baptism, does it make me a Baptist?
I believe in God’s Holy Scriptures, does it make me Peter S Ruckman?
I believe in gifts of the Holy Ghost, does it make me a Pentacostal?
I believe in holy living, does it make me a Methodist?

See what I mean?

 

[BartholomewB]

How could I possibly answer such a question as you gave, if I have no idea what you refer to when you ask the question?

I see. Now you’re dishonestly pretending that you don’t know whether you’re a Seventh Day Adventist or not. Any honest person woud have given a straight Yes or No answer to my question.

 

[NuntioBusiness]

I see. Now you’re dishonestly pretending that you don’t know whether you’re a Seventh Day Adventist or not. Any honest person woud have given a straight Yes or No answer to my question.

Not at all. I have not assented nor denied anything. I am simply asking you to clarify what you mean when you asked the question. Clarify, and I can faithfully answer, in affirmative or negative.

PS. You are the one who started with this line of reasoning (non-sequitur). Please follow through.

 

[NuntioBusiness]

Meanwhile, while Bro. Barth, thinks on that, back to the original intent of this thread:

Continuing with the Iconoclasts and Iconofiles:

“…The background of this passage of Isaac must have been the doctrine of the sleep of souls which he exposes in his Century 3.75 from the second part, eloquently addressing his reader to not despair of death and a long stay in the tomb, which will be as light and wisp as a night’s sleep25. The traces of this doctrine are present already in Aphraat (d. ca. 345),26 Ephrem the Syrian (ca. [page 13-14]

“[Notation] 25 “ Ne sois pas triste, parce que nous resterons pendant de longues anees dans cette corruption de la mort, sous la poussiere, jusqu’a ce que la fin du monde nous atteigne : cela ne pesera pas sur nous. La mort, de meme ce laps de temps pendant lequel nous dormirons dans un tombeau, passeront pour nous comme le songe d’une seule nuit. En effet, notre sage createur a aussi rendu legere notre mort, de sorte que nous n’en ressentirons aucunement la peine. Elle semble lourde aussi longtemps que nous ne l’avons pas encore accueillie, mais ensuite, nous ne ressentirons pas notre corruption ni la dissolution de notre constitution : tout cela ne pesera pas plus lourd que ne pese le songe d’une nuit au moment du reveil, comme si nous nous etions endormis la veille et sommes deja sur le point de nous lever. Aussi leger sera pour nous le long sommeil au tombeau, et aussi peu dureront les annees que nous y passerons. ” (Isaac le Syrien, Oeuvres spirituelles. 41 Discours recemment decouverts , trans. Dom Andre Louf (Spiritualite Orientale, 81), Begrollesen-Mauges, 2003, pp. 227–228).

[Notation] 26 See the references in R. Beulay, L’enseignement spirituel de Jean de Dalyatha, mystique syrooriental du VIIIe siecle (Theologie historique, 83), Paris, 1990, pp. 492–494.”

306–373),27 and Theodore of Mopsuestia (ca. 350–428).28 The doctrine can be found in such doctors of the Eastern Syrian Church as Narsai (d. 502),29 Babai the Great (ca. 550 – after 628), Dadisho Qatraya (second half of 7th c.), and many others.30 The most detailed elaboration of the doctrine, however, can be found in the Letters of the Nestorian Catholicos Timothy I (consecrated in 780) . He says that only rationality and will belong to the soul proper out of its four faculties, most of which (i.e. irascibility or concupiscence) relate to the soul in its union to the body, and thus, after the departure of the soul from its body, it remains in a state which Timothy compares to a human foetus , limited in its movements and sensations. Thus, the departed souls are deprived of all sensation, associated with bodily functions, as well as of all efficient functions, which are, again, associated with the participation of bodies.31 This theory was canonised in the Council of 786–787, presided over by Timothy I .32 …

to be continued … apologies again. I think this is the last time I need to post such lengthy materials. (though no guarantees, I could be wrong)

 

[NuntioBusiness]

continued from previous …

"… 27 See references in Ibid., pp. 494–495; Dal Santo, Debating the Saints’ Cult , pp. 244–254.

28 Les homelies catechetiques de Theodore de Mopsueste , ed. R. Tonneau, R. Devreesse (Studi e Testi, 145), Vatican City, 1949, p. 177, Beulay, L’enseignement spirituel de Jean de Dalyatha , p. 495.

29 Beulay , L’enseignement spirituel de Jean de Dalyatha , pp. 498–499; Dal Santo, Debating the Saints’ Cult , pp. 254–273.

30 See Beulay, L’enseignement spirituel de Jean de Dalyatha , pp. 492–510 for the review of this doctrine among the Syrian authors. R. Beulay, however, does not mention Isaac the Syrian in relation to the doctrine.

31 For the primary references see Beulay, L’enseignement spirituel de Jean de Dalyatha , pp. 491–492; Dal Santo, Debating the Saints’ Cult , pp. 299–318.

32 In more detail on the Synod see O. Braun, “Zwei Synoden des Katholikos Timotheos I,” OC , 2 (1902), pp. 283–311. …” - “Angels in the Guise of Saints”: A Syrian Tradition in Constantinople by Vladimir Baranov, pages 13-14, with Notation - “Angels in the Guise of Saints”: A Syrian Tradition in Constantinople in: Scrinium Volume 12 Issue 1 (2016)

“… How might the Eastern Scripture-based doctrine35 end up and take roots in Byzantium? …

… [Notation] 35 Cf. “sleep in the dust” of Dan 12:2, and Job. 21: 26, and sleep as a metaphor for death in Mt 9:24, Mt 27:52, Mk 5:39; Lk 8:52, Jn 11:11–14, Ac 7:60, Acts 13:36, 1 Th 4:13–15, 2 Pe 3:4; however, see F. Gavin, “The Sleep of Soul in the Early Syriac Church,” Journal of American Oriental Society 40 (1920), pp. 103–120 on the Aristotelian rethinking of the old Syrian paradigm since the seventh century. See also Dal Santo, Debating the Saints’ Cult , pp. 304–307 for the Aristotelian parallels to the anthropological doctrine of Timothy I. …” - “Angels in the Guise of Saints”: A Syrian Tradition in Constantinople by Vladimir Baranov, page 15, with Notation - “Angels in the Guise of Saints”: A Syrian Tradition in Constantinople in: Scrinium Volume 12 Issue 1 (2016)

“… Thus, the doctrine of the “sleep of souls,” originating in the Christian East, was accepted in some circles of Byzantium …

… The doctrine of the sleep of souls might have been in the background of the rejection of saints’ icons in the circles close to the Byzantine Emperor Constantine V who ardently rejected saints’ intercession and efficacy of their relics . …” - “Angels in the Guise of Saints”: A Syrian Tradition in Constantinople by Vladimir Baranov, page 18, with Notation - “Angels in the Guise of Saints”: A Syrian Tradition in Constantinople in: Scrinium Volume 12 Issue 1 (2016)

 

[NuntioBusiness]

This looks like yet another instance of a covert SDA coming to CAF to preach the doctrine of “soul sleep” while dishonestly pretending to be acting from other motives. It happens quite often.

You do realize that many others, and for a long time, have believed in “soul sleep” besides Seventh-day Adventists? Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Scholars, Bible translators, ECF, Syrian Churches, Eastern Churches, and all manner of others?

For instance:

Henry Grew [Baptist, 1850’s] & William Glen Moncrieff [Scottish Presbyterian]

"… “… 4. The Bible teaches that MAN, THE SOUL, as well as the body dies. …” [page 9]

[page 32] IX. Should the reader see cause, from the Bible, to admit that the dead “sleep,” or are unconscious till the resurrection, he will discover very clearly that “Purgatory” and the intercession of saints in heaven [Communion of the Saints, so-called], &c., maintained by the Romanists, are fabrications and delusions. If the dead are conscious after death, it is difficult to see how a very satisfactory demonstration that these are errors and absurdities can be furnished. …" - The Intermediate State by Henry Grew (Baptist), Philadelphia, U.S., Edited, with Notes, by William Glen Moncrieff, Minister of the Gospel, Musselburgh. "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life shall appear, THEN [Caps Original] shall ye also appear with him in glory.’ - Col. III. 3. 4. Reprinted from the American Third Edition, London: Ward & Co., 27, Paternoster Row; James Kerr, 32, Nicolson Street, Edinburgh; Glasgow: James Smith, 32, Nelson Street. 1851 (Price Sixpence)** Appendix, section IX., Pages 9,32 - The Intermediate State … Edited, with Notes, by W. G. Moncrieff

The entire work, speaks of the sleep of the departed (righteous or wicked) in the grave until their respective resurrection.

Let’s say I was Ellen G White herself (I’m not obviously, unless you believe in the communion of the saints… then. jk) … What do you have against Seventh-day Adventists, that you jump on them so suddenly?

 

[stpurl]

Let’s make it easier for you, especially since you were giving little bits of “I believe. . .does that make me Methodist? Etc.”

Most honest Christians identify with a particular denomination or a philosophy. Thus, “baptized Catholic”, “practicing Methodist”, ‘Lutheran Missouri synod”. . .or “”Bible believing church”, “plain Christian”.

Seventh Day Adventists are a denomination with a headquarters in Silver Spring, MD and nearly 90,000 congregations plus a smaller number of companies.

Therefore a person who believed in and practiced SDA would in the normal course of events be members of one of the above and would proclaim themselves as such.

Unless of course an individual was such a member but wished to hide his membership. Such an action is intrinsically dishonest. And such dishonestly would lead most people, since they could not even trust a person to be truthful about his faith, not to trust him on anything else.

So, are you a Seventh Day Adventist, or a member of some other denomination, or are you a ‘church of one” with your own interpretations which you wish to gift to the world?

No one wishes to ‘jump on’ your faith.

One could easily ask why you wish to ‘jump on’ people for asking you to give your affiliation?