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Amber2
Guest
Hi there
Where can I find the Church’s official stand on this issue? In clear and precise words.
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Where can I find the Church’s official stand on this issue? In clear and precise words.
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ComputerGeek25
Guest
I don’t know that you’ll find anything.
The church doesn’t condone rape or comdom use. 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
And the condom use (assuming it is effective, and that is not 100%) is somehow supposed to do what?
Protect from pregnancy?
Protect from STDs?
Make the rape 'better?"
Address the root cause (the rapist’s behavior)?
And where is the condom supposed to come from?
If the rapist has them, wouldn’t he use them to begin with? It wouldn’t be like you’d have a choice right?
If he doesn’t have them, is he going to pop over to the nearest 7-11?
Or are you suggesting that women keep a stock (and update so they’ll always be ‘current’) in dresser drawer and purse for those times when a rapist calls??
Protect from pregnancy?
Protect from STDs?
Make the rape 'better?"
Address the root cause (the rapist’s behavior)?
And where is the condom supposed to come from?
If the rapist has them, wouldn’t he use them to begin with? It wouldn’t be like you’d have a choice right?
If he doesn’t have them, is he going to pop over to the nearest 7-11?
Or are you suggesting that women keep a stock (and update so they’ll always be ‘current’) in dresser drawer and purse for those times when a rapist calls??
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kage_ar
Guest
The Church is 100% against rape.
**2356 ***Rape *is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.
In the real world, a person who is intent on committing a rape is dead set on committing a grave sin and a serious crime. To think that a victim could say “will you please use a condom” and that the attacker would listen is simply silly.
**2356 ***Rape *is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.
In the real world, a person who is intent on committing a rape is dead set on committing a grave sin and a serious crime. To think that a victim could say “will you please use a condom” and that the attacker would listen is simply silly.
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DJgang
Guest
Are you serious? What church in this whole world would even make an official stance on something like that? The Church is wise and true…but honestly…how can she make a stance on EVERYTHING evil…putting two evils together…is it neccesary…I don’t think so.
Sorry…off my rant.
Sorry…off my rant.
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Amber2
Guest
Hm okay
Actually the church has an answer to almost everything so why would she not have a
stand on this issue?
Tantum ergo quote": And the condom use (assuming it is effective, and that is not 100%) is somehow supposed to do what?
Protect from pregnancy?
Protect from STDs?
Make the rape 'better?"
Address the root cause (the rapist’s behavior)?
And where is the condom supposed to come from?"
Answer: yes they are supposed to do all of the above (except the last one)! Or would you not like to be protected against fx. HIV if you were raped (you know men can be raped too or? And yes I know thet condoms are not 100% effective, and so it is with many things that we use anyways)
You know (or maybe you don’t actually, since this seems to be a laughing matter to you, that there are places in the world where every second woman is raped (South Africa) and if you know your town will be attacked in war in a country where rape is common, then would you blame any woman for at least trying to make the perpetrator use a condom?
For me it is a simple matter of self defence and I would worry if the Church were to say that a woman in risk of rape were not allowed to attempt to protect herself, even if it usually would not work in such cases.
Amber
Actually the church has an answer to almost everything so why would she not have a
stand on this issue?
Tantum ergo quote": And the condom use (assuming it is effective, and that is not 100%) is somehow supposed to do what?
Protect from pregnancy?
Protect from STDs?
Make the rape 'better?"
Address the root cause (the rapist’s behavior)?
And where is the condom supposed to come from?"
Answer: yes they are supposed to do all of the above (except the last one)! Or would you not like to be protected against fx. HIV if you were raped (you know men can be raped too or? And yes I know thet condoms are not 100% effective, and so it is with many things that we use anyways)
You know (or maybe you don’t actually, since this seems to be a laughing matter to you, that there are places in the world where every second woman is raped (South Africa) and if you know your town will be attacked in war in a country where rape is common, then would you blame any woman for at least trying to make the perpetrator use a condom?
For me it is a simple matter of self defence and I would worry if the Church were to say that a woman in risk of rape were not allowed to attempt to protect herself, even if it usually would not work in such cases.
Amber
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
FYI, Amber, I’m a woman.
And if you think it’s a laughing matter to me, then your assumption is wrong.
You might not like what I said, but it’s true and as a woman I know it too: A condom does relatively little to ‘protect’ against HIV and pregnancy, and it does absolutely nothing to make the rape less ‘awful’ and LESS than nothing to address why a man rapes in the first place.
You seem a bit defensive and ready to take umbrage over any information that doesn’t seem to say, “of COURSE we need to offer condoms otherwise we’re mean and awful”. Well, I’m sorry, but we can’t go about and do something that offers a supposed 'good" (protection, which it well may not anyway) when that something (a condom) is morally evil in any way, shape or form. I’m sorry, but that’s the way it is.
And if you think it’s a laughing matter to me, then your assumption is wrong.
You might not like what I said, but it’s true and as a woman I know it too: A condom does relatively little to ‘protect’ against HIV and pregnancy, and it does absolutely nothing to make the rape less ‘awful’ and LESS than nothing to address why a man rapes in the first place.
You seem a bit defensive and ready to take umbrage over any information that doesn’t seem to say, “of COURSE we need to offer condoms otherwise we’re mean and awful”. Well, I’m sorry, but we can’t go about and do something that offers a supposed 'good" (protection, which it well may not anyway) when that something (a condom) is morally evil in any way, shape or form. I’m sorry, but that’s the way it is.
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1ke
Guest
Amber,
Yes, the Church has teachings on many things. But, they do not have teachings on every “what if” scenario.
In such cases as these we are called to properly form our conscience and then act on it. So, someone wishing to form their conscience on this matter would turn to the two primary teachings that would be relevant:
The Church teaching on rape (sixth commandment) and the Church teaching on self-defense (fifth commandment). Then one would reason as to how these two teachings come together in this specific, concrete situation.
Rape is a violation of the person (sixth commandment), it is not a conjugal act it is a violation of the conjugal act. It is a crime and an attack, an act of force.
A person may repel an attack of an unjust aggressor using whatever force is necessary (fifth commandment).
Therefore a person might reason that they can repel both the aggressor and the aggressor’s sperm in whatever fashion posssible-- including fighting off the attacker beforehand, barriers if possible, and certainly expelling it afterwards.
The Church does not definitively teach this. But it doesn’t exclude it either. So, when one is faced with such a situation one forms their conscience based on available Church teaching and the use of reason, and then one acts on their conscience.
Yes, the Church has teachings on many things. But, they do not have teachings on every “what if” scenario.
In such cases as these we are called to properly form our conscience and then act on it. So, someone wishing to form their conscience on this matter would turn to the two primary teachings that would be relevant:
The Church teaching on rape (sixth commandment) and the Church teaching on self-defense (fifth commandment). Then one would reason as to how these two teachings come together in this specific, concrete situation.
Rape is a violation of the person (sixth commandment), it is not a conjugal act it is a violation of the conjugal act. It is a crime and an attack, an act of force.
A person may repel an attack of an unjust aggressor using whatever force is necessary (fifth commandment).
Therefore a person might reason that they can repel both the aggressor and the aggressor’s sperm in whatever fashion posssible-- including fighting off the attacker beforehand, barriers if possible, and certainly expelling it afterwards.
The Church does not definitively teach this. But it doesn’t exclude it either. So, when one is faced with such a situation one forms their conscience based on available Church teaching and the use of reason, and then one acts on their conscience.
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MercyMia
Guest
Amber, this is an interesting question.
I think that in the case of nations where men use rape as weapon of war, the likelihood of them actually going along with a request to use a condom is probably very unlikely. Part of the warfare side is to force the women of their opposing group to have children of the enemy. It is not uncommon for men to also brutalize a women’s genitals after rape, with foreign object or even guns. So I am not sure they would be compelled to protect any aspect of that women’s health by wearing a condom. Quite the opposite. My husband works for an International non-profit and one of the things they do is send doctors in to repair what are called “fistulas” that occur as a result of this. This is when a part of the bladder or colon is torn due to force. It is such a sad thing, and very common.
Recently, I saw that they had developed a “condom” for females to wear that had some sort of spike sensor technology that would actually cause severe pain to the male if he attempted to rape her. At first I thought that was a cool idea (particularly for women in war-torn countries where there is a daily threat of rape) but then I thought perhaps the men would be so angry at being hurt that they might kill or brutalize the women even worse in retaliation.
Based on what I know about Church teachings, I would say a woman encouraging her rapist to use a condom would be okay. Rape is so far outside God’s plan.
Does anyone know of a case, here in the US perhaps, where a woman who was going to be raped made this request and it was followed? I am just curious if men have ever agreed?
I am also thinking that here in the US…if a man could say that a woman requested a condom be used or supplied the condom herself…he may use that as a way to deny that she was raped since she took part in that. Seems like a way for the man to perhaps falsely assert his innocence. Frustrating thought.
I guess I am kind of worrying about the mindset here…I know that your question is based on the realism of violence against women. I wonder if women of keeping condoms around incase of rape sort of normalizes the expectation for men to rape. I hope this doesn’t come across wrong, this is such a delicate topic. We know how many men justify rape by saying the woman was looking for it, dressed a certain way, acted a certain way. Now, if it was the norm to women keep condoms around in case of rape…could more men justify their actions to themselves?
I actually think it would be better for more women to have guns, that is one way to take care of a rapist. I also feel that the laws in the United States need to be tougher; I have no idea why the crime of rape is not an automatic life sentence.
Anyways, this would be a rare and terrible exception where using a condom wouldn’t be sinful for a victim. However, as other posters have pointed out - condoms in places like Africa have done nothing to reduce rape or disease. We need to point people towards the truth…which is God and his plan for sex and marriage. I hope that this question has not been put forth to bait us into saying condoms are okay or that the Church is wrong in asserting they are bad for women and for family.
I think that in the case of nations where men use rape as weapon of war, the likelihood of them actually going along with a request to use a condom is probably very unlikely. Part of the warfare side is to force the women of their opposing group to have children of the enemy. It is not uncommon for men to also brutalize a women’s genitals after rape, with foreign object or even guns. So I am not sure they would be compelled to protect any aspect of that women’s health by wearing a condom. Quite the opposite. My husband works for an International non-profit and one of the things they do is send doctors in to repair what are called “fistulas” that occur as a result of this. This is when a part of the bladder or colon is torn due to force. It is such a sad thing, and very common.
Recently, I saw that they had developed a “condom” for females to wear that had some sort of spike sensor technology that would actually cause severe pain to the male if he attempted to rape her. At first I thought that was a cool idea (particularly for women in war-torn countries where there is a daily threat of rape) but then I thought perhaps the men would be so angry at being hurt that they might kill or brutalize the women even worse in retaliation.
Based on what I know about Church teachings, I would say a woman encouraging her rapist to use a condom would be okay. Rape is so far outside God’s plan.
Does anyone know of a case, here in the US perhaps, where a woman who was going to be raped made this request and it was followed? I am just curious if men have ever agreed?
I am also thinking that here in the US…if a man could say that a woman requested a condom be used or supplied the condom herself…he may use that as a way to deny that she was raped since she took part in that. Seems like a way for the man to perhaps falsely assert his innocence. Frustrating thought.
I guess I am kind of worrying about the mindset here…I know that your question is based on the realism of violence against women. I wonder if women of keeping condoms around incase of rape sort of normalizes the expectation for men to rape. I hope this doesn’t come across wrong, this is such a delicate topic. We know how many men justify rape by saying the woman was looking for it, dressed a certain way, acted a certain way. Now, if it was the norm to women keep condoms around in case of rape…could more men justify their actions to themselves?
I actually think it would be better for more women to have guns, that is one way to take care of a rapist. I also feel that the laws in the United States need to be tougher; I have no idea why the crime of rape is not an automatic life sentence.
Anyways, this would be a rare and terrible exception where using a condom wouldn’t be sinful for a victim. However, as other posters have pointed out - condoms in places like Africa have done nothing to reduce rape or disease. We need to point people towards the truth…which is God and his plan for sex and marriage. I hope that this question has not been put forth to bait us into saying condoms are okay or that the Church is wrong in asserting they are bad for women and for family.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
A person may use any moral or licit means, I believe. But they may not use an immoral or illicit means.
I still do not believe that (under the principle that contraception with barriers such as condoms being a moral evil) that one could argue that its use is ‘only’ for protection against HIV etc. Because let’s face it, if there is a ‘protection’ that is the secondary use. It’s like saying that I eat chocolate for its antioxidant properties. Umm, yes, chocolate has antioxidants but they are in small quantities and there are a lot of other ‘greater reasons’ to eat chocolates.
So I feel that asking the rapist to please put on the condom is not morally permissible.
However, you’ll notice I am saying "I’ and me. I will fully submit to any Church teaching if it tells me that I may do so without moral evil. According to my limited and finite knowledge, it does not appear that I may but I am open to any definitive and authoritative teaching.
I still do not believe that (under the principle that contraception with barriers such as condoms being a moral evil) that one could argue that its use is ‘only’ for protection against HIV etc. Because let’s face it, if there is a ‘protection’ that is the secondary use. It’s like saying that I eat chocolate for its antioxidant properties. Umm, yes, chocolate has antioxidants but they are in small quantities and there are a lot of other ‘greater reasons’ to eat chocolates.
So I feel that asking the rapist to please put on the condom is not morally permissible.
However, you’ll notice I am saying "I’ and me. I will fully submit to any Church teaching if it tells me that I may do so without moral evil. According to my limited and finite knowledge, it does not appear that I may but I am open to any definitive and authoritative teaching.
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Catholic90
Guest
Are you serious?!? You can’t be serious.
Like a raper is going to pause and politely agreet to your request to put a condom on anyway while he is in the midst of attacking someone! Sheesh!
“excuse me, sir, would you mind putting this on before you continue raping me?” <Oh, certainly, ANYTHING for you!> [stops rape, puts it on, and then continues rape as victim patiently waits for assault to continue]
You can’t possibly be serious.
Like a raper is going to pause and politely agreet to your request to put a condom on anyway while he is in the midst of attacking someone! Sheesh!
“excuse me, sir, would you mind putting this on before you continue raping me?” <Oh, certainly, ANYTHING for you!> [stops rape, puts it on, and then continues rape as victim patiently waits for assault to continue]
You can’t possibly be serious.
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Corki
Guest
Because the Church teaches us what sin is and how to avoid sin. She does not teach rapists how to sin but make it “better”.
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Amber2
Guest
Tantum ergo
Okay, so you don’t like my tone. Well I find yours offensive too. If the Church does not have a teaching on this issue it must me up to me to form my conscience: to find out what I fully believe on this matter. (as some of the other replys say)
My problem is that some people come up with the opposite and then “pretend” that is the Church’s teaching or would be if there was any.
Mercy Mia Thank you for your thoughtful response. I think that if I or my daughter was in impending danger of being raped I would wish to do EVERYTHING and every little thing to tro to minimise the damage and consequenses. I would wonder how anyone could have a different view on this. If it really came down to a personal level.
Amber
Okay, so you don’t like my tone. Well I find yours offensive too. If the Church does not have a teaching on this issue it must me up to me to form my conscience: to find out what I fully believe on this matter. (as some of the other replys say)
My problem is that some people come up with the opposite and then “pretend” that is the Church’s teaching or would be if there was any.
Mercy Mia Thank you for your thoughtful response. I think that if I or my daughter was in impending danger of being raped I would wish to do EVERYTHING and every little thing to tro to minimise the damage and consequenses. I would wonder how anyone could have a different view on this. If it really came down to a personal level.
Amber
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MercyMia
Guest
Amber…I understand where you are coming from.
My fear is that people will use this reasoning as means to demand the Church make condoms available to people or risk being labeled as “hating women” and wanting them to be raped and suffer.
Remember, with abortion we were told that women who were raped needed to have abortion made available to them. We know that here in the United States rape counts for less than 2% of abortions…so what accounts for the millions upon millions each year? Do you see where I am coming from? Often times people who care nothing about women but who have a political agenda use issues like this to try and create an umbrella rule for their agenda. I fear this could be the case with condoms. Giving people condoms does nothing to address infidelity and the breakdown of family – this is the true cause of the AIDS epidemic. It is a false sense of security since condoms do not fully protect against diseases and some none at all. Never mind the mindset contraception has that ruins families and objectifies women.
My fear is that people will use this reasoning as means to demand the Church make condoms available to people or risk being labeled as “hating women” and wanting them to be raped and suffer.
Remember, with abortion we were told that women who were raped needed to have abortion made available to them. We know that here in the United States rape counts for less than 2% of abortions…so what accounts for the millions upon millions each year? Do you see where I am coming from? Often times people who care nothing about women but who have a political agenda use issues like this to try and create an umbrella rule for their agenda. I fear this could be the case with condoms. Giving people condoms does nothing to address infidelity and the breakdown of family – this is the true cause of the AIDS epidemic. It is a false sense of security since condoms do not fully protect against diseases and some none at all. Never mind the mindset contraception has that ruins families and objectifies women.
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Phemie
Guest
Actually, if you google it you will find that it has happened that a woman has requested that her rapist wear a condom and he complied.Are you serious?!? You can’t be serious.
Like a raper is going to pause and politely agreet to your request to put a condom on anyway while he is in the midst of attacking someone! Sheesh!
“excuse me, sir, would you mind putting this on before you continue raping me?” <Oh, certainly, ANYTHING for you!> [stops rape, puts it on, and then continues rape as victim patiently waits for assault to continue]
You can’t possibly be serious.
aegis.com/news/ads/1993/AD930868.html
nytimes.com/1993/05/14/us/man-is-convicted-of-rape-in-case-involving-condom.html
Mary_Gail_36
New member
If a rapist uses a condom or not is really not up to the victim. If a rapist could be convinced to use one, he could also be theoretically be convinced to stop the rape.
I have heard of rapists using condoms to not leave dna evidence. But all sin would be on the part of the rapist, not victim
Maybe you want to know if women should carry one in case of rape? I think that could be used as evidence the sex was consensual, especially in aquaintance rape. “Ladies and Gentleman of the jury, my client is not guilty of rape, she willingly provided the condom.”
I have heard of rapists using condoms to not leave dna evidence. But all sin would be on the part of the rapist, not victim
Maybe you want to know if women should carry one in case of rape? I think that could be used as evidence the sex was consensual, especially in aquaintance rape. “Ladies and Gentleman of the jury, my client is not guilty of rape, she willingly provided the condom.”
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KostyaJMJ
Guest
The church is against contraception for INTERcourse not rape. There is no prohibition on a contraceptive method with rape. you can take a look at directive 36 of “The Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services” it states that a woman who is raped may defend herself against potential conception using contraception.
Many rapists do use a condom when they commit a rape so as not to leave any evidence behind but it is rather bizarre to think a woman might be able to request her rapist use a condom.
Many rapists do use a condom when they commit a rape so as not to leave any evidence behind but it is rather bizarre to think a woman might be able to request her rapist use a condom.
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kage_ar
Guest
That is a directive from the USCCB, it is not official teaching on Faith and Morals - it is an opinion document of some Bishops.
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Just_Lurking
Guest
The official Catholic Church teachings are:
In my opinion, you might as well ask if it is better or worse in an armed bank robbery for the getaway driver to double park.
- The use of contraception in marital sexual relations is an intrinsic evil.
- Non-marital sexual relations and rape are intrinsically evil.
In my opinion, you might as well ask if it is better or worse in an armed bank robbery for the getaway driver to double park.
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KostyaJMJ
Guest
Yes, it is their professional opinion but that is all that anyone can offer on the subject at this point. You can certainly trust their conclusions over all of us just playing armchair theologian.
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