Condoms (not as contraceptive)

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Great. The site you gave is by someone with the nick condoms4life.

In any case, human life is not a gamble even if the risk is 2%.

The claim by condoms4life that the pores of the rubber sheet is smaller as compared to the HIV/AIDS virus is not the last word on this. We should also be open to other studies too.
2% if an absolute upper bound, a bound which takes into account human error. A properly used condom will prevent HIV transmission in excess of 99% of the time.

Furthermore, almost everything you can conceivably do has a non-zero probability of killing you- there’s a nonzero probability that your car will explode the next time you turn the key, that you will contract mad cow disease next time you eat a hamburger, that you will contract HIV the next time you receive blood.

Furthermore, HIV is actually quite manageable if you live in the West and get yourself checked out, as you should after sex with an HIV positive partner- I’m not saying you should be okay with getting HIV, just that even if we accept the 2% odds of transmission figure your odds of dying are much lower than that.
 
OT, but ‘condoms4life’ is a funny username to use when signing up on a Catholic website. :rolleyes:

Although I do personally agree with the Pope on this. If somebody is infected and is going to be having sex anyways, the should definitely use a condom.

Even if its not right, it is better to be as safe as you can.

Of course if you are infected and going to be promiscious, it would be pretty flipped up not to tell the person you are infected.

That is just plain stupidity to sleep around anyways. Well, if you choose to do that, be prepared for the consequences (pregnancy, std, or rape)
 
Wouldn’t one just suggest the use of retroviral drugs to cure the HIV and then the couple can continue a safe and healthy lifestyle? Are condoms even an issue then?

Also brief question regarding the Pope’s comment about using condoms in male prostitution. Would it be considered morally permissible, morally obligatory, or morally evil to use condoms in homosexual activity? I get mixed messages from different Catholic comments about this behavior. I know the Pope does not condone the actual sex, but I’m wondering about the condom use?
 
Wouldn’t one just suggest the use of retroviral drugs to cure the HIV and then the couple can continue a safe and healthy lifestyle? Are condoms even an issue then?

Also brief question regarding the Pope’s comment about using condoms in male prostitution. Would it be considered morally permissible, morally obligatory, or morally evil to use condoms in homosexual activity? I get mixed messages from different Catholic comments about this behavior. I know the Pope does not condone the actual sex, but I’m wondering about the condom use?
Its more or less to save lives.

If you get AIDS, which comes from HIV, then the chances of you dying are very high with AIDS. Even a tiny cold can kill you. HIV destroys your immune system which essentially gets you sick giving you AIDS. That is why people die of AIDS… all the time. Quit sad if you ask me.

Whats even more said is that the signs of HIV are not crystal clear. This is why you are expected to get check ups from the doctor yearly starting at age 18 if you can. (people in the promiscious industry which is porn and prostitution are advised and usually mandated to get checks every 6 weeks.) And of course go to the doctor if you ever get any signs of an STD or infection.

But Im sure you know all this. Just stating it for people who don’t know.
 
Is a vegetarian a vegetarian if they eat beef? Is a Christian a Christina if they worship Satan? Is a Catholic a Catholic if they follow Satan? What if they follow Planned Parenthood? What if they do not believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church? Do you think they might be agnostic? Baptist? Lutheran? Muslim? Why? Is somebody green because they say they are green or because others view them as green? Is self description all that is required? Manson says he is innocent? Should we believe him? What is a non conforming Catholic? Is that like a vegetarian that eats beef? Or a Baptist that does not believe in Baptism? People call themselves the strangest things…don’t they?🤷
 
2% if an absolute upper bound, a bound which takes into account human error. A properly used condom will prevent HIV transmission in excess of 99% of the time.

Furthermore, almost everything you can conceivably do has a non-zero probability of killing you- there’s a nonzero probability that your car will explode the next time you turn the key, that you will contract mad cow disease next time you eat a hamburger, that you will contract HIV the next time you receive blood.

Furthermore, HIV is actually quite manageable if you live in the West and get yourself checked out, as you should after sex with an HIV positive partner- I’m not saying you should be okay with getting HIV, just that even if we accept the 2% odds of transmission figure your odds of dying are much lower than that.
I was merely quoting the source the poster gave which no doubt trying to see the condoms in an acceptable light. Yet, it admitted that it is only 98-100% safe for those who use it correctly and I supposed these are with condoms made according to the standard.

That source also said that the pores of the condom is smaller than the HIV virus. This is not true because the HIV virus at 0.5 micron, is about 50 to 100 times smaller than the average rubber pores of the condom.

There is no properly used condom as such as there should not be any margin for error. It’s like a pilot flying an airplane.

***Even if there were no pores in latex, in-use breakage and slip-off rates are “so high as to make condoms ineffective for protection against HIV,” says biochemist and molecular biologist Dr. David G. Collart, Ph.D., of Stone Mountain, Ga. ***

dianedew.com/condom.htm

Again we should consider the latex condoms being used world wide – especially in the third world countries where many of such condoms are sub-standard which makes their safety even worse. Even in the U.S., 4 defects out of 1000 of condoms is acceptable. In simple term which is recognized by everybody, even the proponent of condoms and even condoms manufacturers, the condom is not accepted as guarantee against contracting the HIV virus; it only reduces the chances of occurrence.

Failure rate in the U.S. is mentioned at between 3% and 15% of those using the condoms.

The British Standards Institute permits up to three out of a hundred to have holes in them when they leave the factory.

In the US, government standards allow only four condoms out of every thousand to have leaks. But users still experience a failure rate of between 3% and 15%, which is the percentage of women who have an unwanted pregnancy using this method of birth control over a year.

A spokesman from the London Rubber Company (Durex) admitted that if incorrectly used, the failure rate of condoms could be anything from 25% up to 100%, and there are real problems with teaching people how to use them

Then,
Another study of partners using condoms suggests that the risk of catching HIV is reduced by 85%. That sounds excellent, but it is not. ***If you persist in sleeping regularly with someone who is positive or with numbers of unknown people who are possibly positive, then eventually, condom or no condom, you may get AIDS. Vaginal or anal sex using a condom is not a low-risk or no-risk activity. It carries a medium risk at best. ***

***World Health Organisation ***(WHO) states clearly that the most effective way to prevent sexual transmission of HIV is to abstain.

hivaidscare.com/hivaidsarticle7.php?acode=na
 
BTW the failure rate at between 3% and 15% of those using the condoms in the U.S. is for men who use them as birth control. The % is their wives who get pregnant over theyear. This is significant since the HIV virus is much smaller than the spermatozoa. So let figure the failure rate when they are used for protection against HIV virus.
 
Below are some things that might help in understanding the lies of condoms. The first is a site, as mentioned above, that just presents issues about usage and about church teachings you will have to explore it. The second document discusses the LIE that Planned Parenthood and others offer concerning sex education and Aids. Notice the report Uganda. This is a document from a Pro-Life site so some might question it, but the last document is from USAID and it provides documented evidence to support the the second report on the statistics of Uganda as reported. I don’t think anybody can honestly argue that USAID is Pro-Life versus Pro-Choice.

hli.org/index.php/condoms
humanaevitaepriests.org/f…ondom_user.pdf
usaid.gov/our_work/global…nda_report.pdf

Why does the media not report this?
We kill more people passing out condoms then save? Why because the simple act of passing out a condom somehow registers consent towards the evil acts and it pretends to offer protection. It is like handing your child a helmet just in case he decides to run across a freeway in the middle of the night dressed in black. Why not teach him. “Don’t run in the freeway?” Modernists assume, and like to teach, that people MUST have sex, that we have no more self control than dogs or rabbits? If Aids was a little faster in killing people and if it was even more deadly I would bet that fewer people would risk death through sex outside of marriage. The problem is that most people THINK that it won’t happen to them, and statically it might not, but the CONDOM actually makes them think they are more safe, and they are not. This is way the majority of American under 30 now carry a disease that keeps on giving. In my opinion almost everything Planned Parenthood Pushes is bad for youth, and advances the cause of Evil and death. Either through active participation or by second and third order effects. Sanger was evil and the fruit of an evil tree is evil.

I hope you enjoy the sites… Look up Dr. Janet Smith as she has some great MP3’s. Catholic Answers Live also has her on from time to time…
 
A married Catholic woman with several children is infected with HIV after getting a tattoo with a unsterilized needle.

She becomes aware of this infection after experiencing symptoms of AIDS. Thankfully her husband remains uninfected.

The couple have several options:
  1. Abstain from intercourse.
  2. Have intercourse risking the infection of the husband (and the infection of any baby that may result from pregnancy).
  3. Have intercourse with a condom as a means of preventing disease transmission.
I have no doubt that you will agree that option 1 is not objectionable and that option 2 is not worth the risk. But here is the question: May one morally have intercourse using option 3?
There’s a few things wrong with your scenario.
  1. It takes several years, sometimes up to ten for HIV to develop into full blown AIDS. Chances are better than good that the husband IS infected.
  2. If an HIV+ woman gets pregnant and her status is known, and a lot of lead maternity carers are offering/doing HIV testing, then the woman can take medication that is very effective at preventing the spread of HIV across the placenta and into the foetus.
  3. HIV is more of a chronic illness now, people, especially in the West, can live with it.
  4. If she has full blown AIDS then she’s likely to be too sick to have relations with her husband, or even maintain a pregnancy.
  5. And really, what’s a good catholci women with several children doing get a tatt with an unsterilised needled? You’d think she’d do her research into this body modication first!
Anyway, they should defintely abstain, esepcailly if she’s got AIDS, she’s gonna be sick as a dog, not to mention, she could catch anything from her husband, not just give him HIV. AIDS means you basically have NO immune system, even a kiss from his lips with a coldsore could lead to death.
 
Excuse me for asking this, and I ask it openly:

But where the heck are people getting their information about HIV/AIDS? Seriously, there is some real myths and misinformation being spouted in not just this thread, but others around here, and online.

Its 2010, seriously, people, especially in the West, should be clued in by now.
 
Excuse me for asking this, and I ask it openly:

But where the heck are people getting their information about HIV/AIDS? Seriously, there is some real myths and misinformation being spouted in not just this thread, but others around here, and online.

Its 2010, seriously, people, especially in the West, should be clued in by now.
Since you are referring to both sides of the argument do you mean?

***1. Those that think HIV aids infected people should not engage in sex with an uninfected spouse because over time ALMOST ALL studies show the spouse will get infected and their children may be left parentless are correct.
  1. People thinking 1. are backwards and HIV infected spouses should not be concerned having unprotected sex or that it is fully acceptable to risk their spouse and children?
  2. That both sides are using bad information and the truth is left or right of the current positions?***
On a side note one of the posters said something to the effect “Aids is no big deal in the West you can live with it” Does this mean that Herpes, Chlamydia and other sexually transmitted diseases are no big deal? Are these the values we have come to accept as “Normal” in our culture? If so what do you think will happen WHEN, not if, the US economy goes through a collapse like the Soviet Union? Do you think that these high cost drugs will be available for most US citizens free? What about those that are unemployed? We will likely NOT have a health care system left. If you think this is not possible debates are already occurring to cut back pay for Active Duty Soldiers as well as increase the cost to their current health care.

I am not saying the proposed cuts are good or bad, but both the right and the left are discussing them. $13+ Trillion is no joke. People that are counting on a government social net that will be likely be broken to help them live with a sickness they might have contracted through activities of their own choice when their own Children are hungry are likely going to be disappointed and left out. I feel sorry for those that contract it through no poor choices of their own, well I feel sorry for all. That being said if Church’s start to play the role the have done in the past when systems collapse and your parish has hungry children to feed but they also have a man or woman with HIV, where do you think the Parish will want the resources spent?

I am not trying to be cruel, but I believe in Children first. So those people that trust the lies of Planned Parenthood and just want to live with these choices may likely end up dying with them.
 
I would say that living as Saint Joseph and his blessed Virgin Spouse, Mary, did would be the best option. It is the most loving option as well. Not only does it eliminate any further risk, but it is what the Church would say to do as well. Also, it chastity is virtuous and using condoms is not chaste sexuality.
 
When a husband and wife have sexual relations, in order to be moral, the marital sexual act must be unitive and procreative. The deliberate choice to use a condom is the choice of an intrinsically evil act, an act that is inherently immoral because the act itself is directed toward the deprivation of the procreative meaning.

Intrinsically evil acts are always immoral.

Circumstances do not justify intrinsically evil acts:

“The negative precepts of the natural law are universally valid. They oblige each and every individual, always and in every circumstance. It is a matter of prohibitions which forbid a given action semper et pro semper, without exception, because the choice of this kind of behaviour is in no case compatible with the goodness of the will of the acting person, with his vocation to life with God and to communion with his neighbour. It is prohibited — to everyone and in every case — to violate these precepts. They oblige everyone, regardless of the cost, never to offend in anyone, beginning with oneself, the personal dignity common to all.” Veritatis Splendor, n. 52.

Intention, such as the intention to avoid disease transmission, does not justify intrinsically evil acts.

“Hence human activity cannot be judged as morally good merely because it is a means for attaining one or another of its goals, or simply because the subject’s intention is good.” VS, n. 72

The Catechism of the Catholic Church: “Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).” (CCC, n. 2399).

“Consequently, circumstances or intentions can never transform an act, intrinsically evil by virtue of its object, into an act ‘subjectively’ good or defensible as a choice.” (Veritatis Splendor, n. 81.)
 
What if a couple are using NFP but then use a condom to avoid the risk of infection?

And while one can’t do evil so that good may come of it, there is clearly a hierarchy of sins.
Lifetime abstinence is not a cross may people can bear, so which is better adultery, or using a condom within the marriage?
 
I don’t know what the poll is trying to achieve. Sin is not a democracy; we cannot decide what it is by voting. :confused:
Absolutely, even when Bishops “vote” assembled in council, they are not “deciding” Truth as much as discovering it.
 
What if a couple are using NFP but then use a condom to avoid the risk of infection?

And while one can’t do evil so that good may come of it, there is clearly a hierarchy of sins.
Lifetime abstinence is not a cross may people can bear, so which is better adultery, or using a condom within the marriage?
False dichotomy. There is a third possibility: abstinence. Prayer can make a life of abstinence possible. At any rate both adultery and birth control are results of the failure to live out your vocation chastely, which we are all called to.
 
What if a couple are using NFP but then use a condom to avoid the risk of infection?
NFP is moral because each and every marital act remains unitive and procreative. Using a condom some of the time while using NFP still deprives the marital act of the procreative meaning during those times when it is used.

Contraception is immoral because it is an act that is inherently directed at an evil moral object: the deprivation of the procreative meaning from sexual acts. Even if the couple are unlikely to conceive because the wife is outside of the fertile window, the marital act must be open to life. For it is not the attainment of the moral object (procreation) that makes the act moral, but rather the inherent ordering of the act toward that moral end.

The moral object is independent of intention and circumstances.
And while one can’t do evil so that good may come of it, there is clearly a hierarchy of sins.
Lifetime abstinence is not a cross may people can bear, so which is better adultery, or using a condom within the marriage?
Some sins are mortal and other sins are venial. Within the category of mortal sins, some mortal sins are more serious and others less serious, but still grave. Within the category of venial sins, some venial sins are more serious, but still venial, and others are less serious. However, every sin is nevertheless immoral, and every sin is to be avoided.

Both adultery and contraception are objectively mortal sins. The choice of either mortal sin with full knowledge and full deliberation is an actual mortal sin deserving of Hellfire (if the person does not repent). Asking which is better, one actual mortal sin or another, is like asking which room in Hell would have the better view.
 
Anybody who has HIV or an STD and uses a condom to try and protect them is an idiot. If they have an STD they should not be having sex in the first place. And the fact that they got an STD should have taught them that being promiscuous isn’t the way to go. But people are stubborn and can’t seem to figure things out that easily, apparently. 🤷 (this doesn’t apply to babies who were born with it passed to them)

Also too, another good reason not to share needles. 👍
 
Anybody who has HIV or an STD and uses a condom to try and protect them is an idiot. If they have an STD they should not be having sex in the first place. And the fact that they got an STD should have taught them that being promiscuous isn’t the way to go. But people are stubborn and can’t seem to figure things out that easily, apparently. 🤷 (this doesn’t apply to babies who were born with it passed to them)
You are so right. Even without talking about its morality, or immorality rather, most of it is just common sense.
 
Lifetime abstinence is not a cross may people can bear, so which is better adultery, or using a condom within the marriage?
This is like saying I am unable to refrain from committing the sin because my flesh is weak and therefore I will commit it one way or the other.

This is not acceptable and nowhere in the Church teaching or in the Bible that it is acceptable either. A sin is a sin. Jesus is so clear about sin that if needs be we are exhorted to take up our cross, no matter how heavy it is. Jesus died for the cross.

By saying we should succumb to our human weakness we are saying that God cannot do anything about it and it also shows we are lacking in faith. Too often we justify sin because humanly we cannot avoid it. This is not acceptable in Christianity. We only have to look at the examples of the saints and the martyrs who very often gave up their lives for righteousness, but often times too received the grace to be able to overcome their weakness against sin.

Cannot bear the cross? Offer their life to Jesus; emulate the saints because this is what we are all called to be. Besides, it is all common sense. There is much better reason to abstain than to have sex when one has HIV/AIDS.

God bless.
 
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