Condoms should u use them or not?

[km112482]

Here’s a youngster that gets it! :clapping:

I agree.

And on the note of people talking about innocent people can get AIDS and one day fall in love. I agree that it is unfortunate to the innocent who are born with aids through no fault of their own, but I would not take a risk in having sex because nothing is 100 % safe. I would be too afraid to spread the disease to someone else. It may be hard for them to have to lead a celibate life, but that is what i would do in their situation.

I will stick by my opinion because this is what I believe and I understand that we all have our own opinions and that others will not feel the same way I do, but as a Catholic I will not promote the use of condoms or BC to anyone because I believe it is wrong.

JMO, Kerri

 

[Pug]

RichT:

I don’t think your being open to the possibilty of life while using condoms. A person using condoms would probably say they know they are runnng the risk of a pregnancy while using a condom. Then a large portion of those same people would be the first ones at the abortion clinic to take care of the problem.

Bottom line is that the intent of using condoms is to stop pregnancy and std’s. It’s the intent part that nullifies your statement.

I’m not sure I can say that it is impossible to use a condom without direct contraceptive intent. Say a couple marries, and one of them has aids. They decide they do want to consumate the marriage, and they want to run the minimum risk of transmitting the aids when they do it. So they use a condom. Now, also suppose that they would be delighted if a pregnancy should result. I don’t mean just, “Okay, we’re stuck with it,” but, “Yeah, rock on!”

This couple, if they could, would take a magic pill that prevents the aids from transmitting and does not impede sperm transmission. But this doesn’t exist, so they pick the condom. I’m not sure these people have any particular desire to reduce fertility. They are probably viewing it as a side effect of lowering the disease transmission rate.

However, this makes me wonder, is it possible for a man with aids to make a woman pregnant by natural means and not give her the disease? That is, must the sperm transmit the disease if it succeeded in fertilization of the egg? I am guessing not.

 

[John_Higgins]

RichT:

A person using condoms would probably say they know they are runnng the risk of a pregnancy while using a condom.

Same stuff can apply to many who use NFP.

John

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

cove:

I am not promoting any bad behavior so spare me the catholic guilt trip.

I have consistantly stated that abstinence is the only true prevention agains HIV/AIDS. I am only stating a reality that there are going to be those who fall to the temptation and I hope that they will at least take some form of preventative measure. That, of course, would be a condom because I don’t know of any other.

btw–I joined this discussion when it was at the Water Cooler. I was not trying to make an attempt at that time to put a moral spin on it. Just looking at it realistically. Sorry if my opinion has upset anyone.

Cove,
There seems to be a disconnect between what you post here and what you say you think.

First, I am not trying to lay a guilt trip. You said that I didn’t read all your posts, so I went back and read them.

It sure does look like you are promoting condom use, yes you do say that abstinence is best but then you qualify this with but they will be weak so they should use condoms.

For example here is some of what you said.

Post #15

cove:

Genesis gives you very good and faithful reasoning to abstain from having sex but love for ones husband or wife and temptation will probably take over (not everyone is that perfect) and intercourse will more then likely happen . In this case I would say absolutely use condoms to prevent the spread of disease.

Post #23

cove:

I do not disagree, but we are not all perfect. Even the best of us will fall into the temptation of intercourse especially with a spouse that we truly love. I truly don’t believe that God expects them to not express their love in this way. In this case the condom could be seen as a God given miracle. As I see it, condoms may be a blessing in these cases.

Post #37

cove:

Even if the condom can save a life???

Post #39

cove:

But, I do recognize that this is not always going to be the case and it is better to use the less risk condom then the high risk no protection at all.

Post #40

cove:

But, let’s not totally eliminate the idea that the condom can help to save a life in times of human weakness.

All of these seem to say to people that condom use is ok in certain circumstances which goes against what the Church Teaches.

There there is also this odd post of yours (bold emphasis added)

Post #31

cove:

The risk factor is still better with a condom. I am not advocating the use of condoms to stop the spread of disease. I am saying that if it is going to happen (sex between a married couple) then the use of a condom will help to make this risk less. Not using it will more then likely result in the healthy partner getting the disease. Of course, living your faith and abstaining from sex to ensure that your loved one will not become sick is the best answer. But, humans will be humans and we aren’t perfect. In this case use the condom and make this risk factor lower.

Here you say it, you are “not advocating the use of condoms” but it is better to use one to make the “risk less”. I can not understand this, either condom use is wrong or its not.

Also you seem to not understand that condoms do not make the risk less as those who use them will do so at a higher rate than those who do not use them.

Let me say it a different way, those who abstain will not have sex, those who use condoms will have sex at a higher rate than those who abstain so the risk of passing on the disease is higher with the person that uses condoms than the person that abstains.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

cove:

I am not promoting any bad behavior so spare me the catholic guilt trip.

I have consistantly stated that abstinence is the only true prevention agains HIV/AIDS. I am only stating a reality that there are going to be those who fall to the temptation and I hope that they will at least take some form of preventative measure. That, of course, would be a condom because I don’t know of any other.

btw–I joined this discussion when it was at the Water Cooler. I was not trying to make an attempt at that time to put a moral spin on it. Just looking at it realistically. Sorry if my opinion has upset anyone.

Cove,
There seems to be a disconnect between what you post here and what you say you think.

First, I am not trying to lay a guilt trip. You said that I didn’t read all your posts, so I went back and read them.

It sure does look like you are promoting condom use, yes you do say that abstinence is best but then you qualify this with but they will be weak so they should use condoms.

For example here is some of what you said.

Post #15

cove:

Genesis gives you very good and faithful reasoning to abstain from having sex but love for ones husband or wife and temptation will probably take over (not everyone is that perfect) and intercourse will more then likely happen . In this case I would say absolutely use condoms to prevent the spread of disease.

Post #23

cove:

I do not disagree, but we are not all perfect. Even the best of us will fall into the temptation of intercourse especially with a spouse that we truly love. I truly don’t believe that God expects them to not express their love in this way. In this case the condom could be seen as a God given miracle. As I see it, condoms may be a blessing in these cases.

Post #37

cove:

Even if the condom can save a life???

Post #39

cove:

But, I do recognize that this is not always going to be the case and it is better to use the less risk condom then the high risk no protection at all.

Post #40

cove:

But, let’s not totally eliminate the idea that the condom can help to save a life in times of human weakness.

All of these seem to say to people that condom use is ok in certain circumstances which goes against what the Church Teaches.

There there is also this odd post of yours (bold emphasis added)

Post #31

cove:

The risk factor is still better with a condom. I am not advocating the use of condoms to stop the spread of disease. I am saying that if it is going to happen (sex between a married couple) then the use of a condom will help to make this risk less. Not using it will more then likely result in the healthy partner getting the disease. Of course, living your faith and abstaining from sex to ensure that your loved one will not become sick is the best answer. But, humans will be humans and we aren’t perfect. In this case use the condom and make this risk factor lower.

Here you say it, you are “not advocating the use of condoms” but it is better to use one to make the “risk less”. I can not understand this, either condom use is wrong or its not.

Also you seem to not understand that condoms do not make the risk less as those who use them will do so at a higher rate than those who do not use them.

Let me say it a different way, those who abstain will not have sex, those who use condoms will have sex at a higher rate than those who abstain so the risk of passing on the disease is higher with the person that uses condoms than the person that abstains.

 

[felra]

**ByzCath **you must have had 2 cups of coffee this morning! Good post(s).

 

[felra]

cove:

I am not promoting any bad behavior so spare me the catholic guilt trip.

I have consistantly stated that abstinence is the only true prevention agains HIV/AIDS. I am only stating a reality that there are going to be those who fall to the temptation and I hope that they will at least take some form of preventative measure. That, of course, would be a condom because I don’t know of any other.

btw–I joined this discussion when it was at the Water Cooler. I was not trying to make an attempt at that time to put a moral spin on it. Just looking at it realistically. Sorry if my opinion has upset anyone.

But as a Catholic you cannot remove morality from behaviors that carry a moral meaning. This is what you are trying to do in your posts. This is not reality, however realistically you feel this falls outside the moral realm of consideration. No room for Catholic guilt here, just Catholic understanding and accountability.

 

[km112482]

felra:

But as a Catholic you cannot remove morality from behaviors that carry a moral meaning. This is what you are trying to do in your posts. This is not reality, however realistically you feel this falls outside the moral realm of consideration. No room for Catholic guilt here, just Catholic understanding and accountability.

Exactly, if you follow the teachings of the catholic church and follow them as you should then condoms are wrong. If you choose to justify it that is your opinion, but I dont understand how someone could say well they are wrong, but if they are going to use them it is better than not. That makes no sense you are either believe it is ok or it isnt there should be no grey area just right or wrong.

Kerri

 

[cove]

h(name removed by moderator)2four:

Okay, so by your logic, if I have this strong, uncontrollable desire to shoot my hubby with a gun, I can do so as long as I give him a bullet-proof vest for protection? Of course, there may be a failure rate with my aim and I might hit him in the head instead of the chest, but that would be the lesser of two evils…

C’mon, honey, if you love me, you’ll let me take a shot at you…

Unfortunately, there are people who are willing to take the chance (have sex even though they are HIV positive). I never said they were right to do so.

I am not saying go ahead and have sex because you can use a condom and not get HIV. The only sure way to not spread the disease is through abstinence. But if they are going to risk the chance then they should use a condom because this would give them at least some protection and make it less likely they will spread the disease compared to not using anything at all.

I am only looking at this situation realistically. In the world outside of the RCC, people have sex even if they know they will spread STD’s. Before there were condoms there were STD’s and people still had sex. Didn’t stop them.

Everyone in the world was not raised as a faith filled Catholic and have come to the moral realizations that those on this board have. Through prayer and faith filled education we can help stop this deadly disease by emphasis on a strong belief in God and moral obligations. But, obviously this effort has not reached everyone.

btw–I would advise you not to shoot your husband (unless it is in self defense, of course). You see shooting him is illegal even if he wanted you to (I am sure you would not want to be at the mercy of our judicial system). But, two consenting adults having sex even if one is HIV postive is not against the law. Both situations are morally wrong. But, the law does not always recognize the same morals you or I or anyone else here has.

 

[cove]

OK Byz if it makes you happy and makes your day and since you went to all the trouble to take my words out of context. YES!!! I condon the use of condoms in the event that those who will still engage in risky sex with someone who is HIV positive will at least get some protection against a deadly disease. Thank you for pointing this out to me. What was I thinking? I will sure get to confession as soon as possible.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

cove:

OK Byz if it makes you happy and makes your day and since you went to all the trouble to take my words out of context. YES!!! I condon the use of condoms in the event that those who will still engage in risky sex with someone who is HIV positive will at least get some protection against a deadly disease. Thank you for pointing this out to me. What was I thinking? I will sure get to confession as soon as possible.

Your words were not taken out of context, in most the cases I quoted your whole post.

I think your just upset that I have pointed out the inconsistency of your stated stand on this issue.

As well as the fact that there is no support from Catholic Teachings for your stand either.

 

[RichT]

John Higgins:

Same stuff can apply to many who use NFP.

John

If your going to quote me, use the entire post so those reading will understand the context of the original post. My point was that people who use condoms are not open to life. They instead use language like that which I used in the sentence you so kindly pointed out. People who use NFP are open to life, therefore, even if they are not wanting children at that point in time, they are open to life if God so chooses to give them a child.

Huge difference!

 

[felra]

cove:

Unfortunately, there are people who are willing to take the chance (have sex even though they are HIV positive). I never said they were right to do so.

I am not saying go ahead and have sex because you can use a condom and not get HIV. The only sure way to not spread the disease is through abstinence. But if they are going to risk the chance then they should use a condom because this would give them at least some protection and make it less likely they will spread the disease compared to not using anything at all.

I am only looking at this situation realistically. In the world outside of the RCC, people have sex even if they know they will spread STD’s. Before there were condoms there were STD’s and people still had sex. Didn’t stop them.

Everyone in the world was not raised as a faith filled Catholic and have come to the moral realizations that those on this board have. Through prayer and faith filled education we can help stop this deadly disease by emphasis on a strong belief in God and moral obligations. But, obviously this effort has not reached everyone.

btw–I would advise you not to shoot your husband (unless it is in self defense, of course). You see shooting him is illegal even if he wanted you to (I am sure you would not want to be at the mercy of our judicial system). But, two consenting adults having sex even if one is HIV postive is not against the law. Both situations are morally wrong. But, the law does not always recognize the same morals you or I or anyone else here has.

This is beginning to sound more and more like a “I’m Catholic, but…” argument…“I’m Catholic, I believe in what the Church teaches in faith and morals, but…”.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

felra:

This is beginning to sound more and more like a “I’m Catholic, but…” argument…“I’m Catholic, I believe in what the Church teaches in faith and morals, but…”.

Felra,
Exactly! You hit the nail on the head with this one.

This is the “I’m Catholic but in the “real world”,” arugment.

All this does is send an inconsistent message and confuses people.

The fact is abstinence is the only way not to spread the HIV infection.

In Africa, I believe it was Nigeria (but I could be wrong) they started to push abstinence and stop the message that condoms are safe (or safer). After this change is when the HIV infection rate actually started to drop. This is not something widely reported because it differs from the agenda that the world health groups want to push and it also verifies that the Church has this one right.

Well the Church has it all right.

 

[cove]

ByzCath:

Your words were not taken out of context, in most the cases I quoted your whole post.

I think your just upset that I have pointed out the inconsistency of your stated stand on this issue.

As well as the fact that there is no support from Catholic Teachings for your stand either.

Right!!! Exactly!!! You are the greatest. What can I say? You helped me see the light. Thank you, brother. Thank you.

Have a nice day!

 

[RichT]

Pug:

I’m not sure I can say that it is impossible to use a condom without direct contraceptive intent. Say a couple marries, and one of them has aids. They decide they do want to consumate the marriage, and they want to run the minimum risk of transmitting the aids when they do it. So they use a condom. Now, also suppose that they would be delighted if a pregnancy should result. I don’t mean just, “Okay, we’re stuck with it,” but, “Yeah, rock on!”

This couple, if they could, would take a magic pill that prevents the aids from transmitting and does not impede sperm transmission. But this doesn’t exist, so they pick the condom. I’m not sure these people have any particular desire to reduce fertility. They are probably viewing it as a side effect of lowering the disease transmission rate.

However, this makes me wonder, is it possible for a man with aids to make a woman pregnant by natural means and not give her the disease? That is, must the sperm transmit the disease if it succeeded in fertilization of the egg? I am guessing not.

Pug, I have heard on more than one occasion that the church teaches that a person with a disease such as Aids, or HIV would be expected to abstain from sexual relations to avoid passing the disease to another person.

 

[cove]

felra:

This is beginning to sound more and more like a “I’m Catholic, but…” argument…“I’m Catholic, I believe in what the Church teaches in faith and morals, but…”.

Of course, this must be my problem. Thank you so much for pointing this out to me. Oh, I am such a bad Catholic.

Like I said, I will be going to confession soon. Seeing that you both are such perfect and wonderful fellow Catholics, I hope that you will say a prayer for me.

Have a nice day!!!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

felra:

This is beginning to sound more and more like a “I’m Catholic, but…” argument…“I’m Catholic, I believe in what the Church teaches in faith and morals, but…”.

This sort of argument has been in use for years in the pro-abortion crowd.

It goes something like this…

“If a woman has sex and gets pregnant but this pregnancy is unwanted. Then when the child it born it will be neglected so while I am against abortion, in this case an abrotion would be better so that the child is not neglected and does not have an unhappy life also the mother of the child would have an unhappy life. So all in all, an abortion is the best thing here. After all she is still going to give in to her weakness and have sex and she just may get pregnant.”

We can not water down our teachings. A sin is a sin is a sin is a sin. No changing that.

 

[ppcpilot]

cove:

Of course, this must be my problem. Thank you so much for pointing this out to me. Oh, I am such a bad Catholic.

Like I said, I will be going to confession soon. Seeing that you both are such perfect and wonderful fellow Catholics, I hope that you will say a prayer for me.

Have a nice day!!!

Typical response when you have been proven wrong by people who are most knowledgable about the Faith. We aren’t judging, Cove, just re-stating what the official teaching of the church is. If you are truly Catholic, you are obliged to obey. If you dissent, you are protestant. (protesting)

My wife and I thought the way you do, for a long time. We have since seen the light. Read some of Christopher West’s books, or Contraception: Why Not? By Janet Smith (I think it’s Smith!)

The Church does not teach what it teaches because it’s a bunch of crochety old men who aren’t married and are jealous…it’s about trusting God fore each and every decision we make in our lives. Why don’t you trust God to decide on children for you? Do you trust Him in everything else?

 

[cove]

ppcpilot:

Typical response when you have been proven wrong by people who are most knowledgable about the Faith. We aren’t judging, Cove, just re-stating what the official teaching of the church is. If you are truly Catholic, you are obliged to obey. If you dissent, you are protestant. (protesting)

My wife and I thought the way you do, for a long time. We have since seen the light. Read some of Christopher West’s books, or Contraception: Why Not? By Janet Smith (I think it’s Smith!)

The Church does not teach what it teaches because it’s a bunch of crochety old men who aren’t married and are jealous…it’s about trusting God fore each and every decision we make in our lives. Why don’t you trust God to decide on children for you? Do you trust Him in everything else?

I was not going to respond to this but I see you have miss understood. I am not for the use of condoms as a birth control method.

I do not use ABC.

My opinion in here only refers to the prevention and cure of the HIV virus.

It is not a matter of my trusting God. It is a question of whether those who have HIV trust God.

I know many good Protestants. Your comment is taken as a compliment. Thank you.