Condoms vs. abortions

[Linnyo]

I think some people forget that, in the eyes of non-catholics, the usage of condoms IS NOT a sin. Therefore they would not be commiting a mortal sin by using them since they do not possess the full knowledge that contraception is wrong. And, I hate to say it, but many Catholics do not know it is a sin as even some priests neglect to tell the people that. If they are without the proper informed knowledge that it is a sin, then they cannot be held responsible for that particular sin. I think using a condom would be the right course of action for the couple in the OP.

 

[bengal_fan]

Getting back to your hypothetical problem, a good Catholic must reject both options and work to change the hearts of those that misuse their sexual gifts. prevent pregnancy or murder? How about preventing the heartbreak that comes with facing these complications?

so the basic answer i am getting (in a practical sense since no one is saying one or the other) is that they would rather a life be formed and then ended than the life be stopped from forming.

i see a few others who seem to take the opposite stance that it is better to stop the formation (the john chrysostom quote seems to say this).

i guess part of the reason i ask is that in the case of war and the death penalty, i see many on here accusing me (very pacifistic and anti-death penalty) of not living in the real world. but then when it comes to this issue i see many on here not “living in the real world”.

people are going to have sex. this is a fallen world and there will always be sin. so, should we allow their sin (which is going to happen) to cause murder to an innocent or allow them to only do harm to themselves (spiritually)?

i would have to fall in the latter category. do i see a problem with ABC? yes. would i rather a life not be conceived at all than aborted? YES. i am for the illegalization of abortion but not the illegalization of condoms or ABC (non-abortofacients) because ABC can prevent more abortions from taking place.

i am frustrated by some answers in here because it seems to show a lack of understanding of the world we live in and the willingness to let the innocent die to make a point that ABC is wrong.

 

[jmcrae]

I think some people forget that, in the eyes of non-catholics, the usage of condoms IS NOT a sin. Therefore they would not be commiting a mortal sin by using them since they do not possess the full knowledge that contraception is wrong. And, I hate to say it, but many Catholics do not know it is a sin as even some priests neglect to tell the people that. If they are without the proper informed knowledge that it is a sin, then they cannot be held responsible for that particular sin. I think using a condom would be the right course of action for the couple in the OP.

Non-Catholic Christians (and most other religions, too) are fully aware that fornication and adultery are sinful, though, so even if they didn’t realize that contraception was a sin, they would certainly know that sex outside of marriage is a sin, and they would be culpable for that.

 

[Linnyo]

Non-Catholic Christians (and most other religions, too) are fully aware that fornication and adultery are sinful, though, so even if they didn’t realize that contraception was a sin, they would certainly know that sex outside of marriage is a sin, and they would be culpable for that.

But sex may be used inside marraige too with or without the use of condoms. And, they may not even be Christians, in which case, they may not see sex outside marraige as a sin at all!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

But sex may be used inside marraige too with or without the use of condoms. And, they may not even be Christians, in which case, they may not see sex outside marraige as a sin at all!

First, blessings on your coming baby.

I think we have to remember that there is not ‘one standard for Christians’ and another for non-Christians.

If something is a sin (a wrong) it is a sin not ‘just’ for Christians but for anybody.

Whether the person ‘sees something as sin’ or not, doesn’t excuse them. And until the Lambeth Conference of 1930 all Christians saw contraception/condom use as the sin it is. In fact, the main difference between today’s society and previous societies is that while some use may have been made of condoms in other societies, the use was definitely considered wrong, even by those who used them. IOW, while a person may have engaged in the sin, he or she recognized that it was sinful. Today’s society is trying to remove the idea that such use is sinful, as below, first by trying to argue that, hey, if we don’t use it people will do ‘worse’ (attempted emotional blackmail), and seguing into the arguments that it is actually ‘better’ (you know, to ‘save’ people from AIDS, or to ‘prevent unwanted children from being born and abused.’) Talk about a sea change!

It is basically (the revisionist historians aside) an issue of ‘convenience’ above all, with the ‘exceptions to the rule’ dragged out and paraded as examples of the need for such things lest a woman be “punished with a baby.”

As has been stated throughout not just Christian but natural history, one should never do evil, even in order that may result. (especially in a crazy world where is a relative term). The fact that so many have been manipulated in today’s society into even considering that it is ‘better’ to do one evil thing to prevent another shows how far humanity, while trumpeting its ‘morality’ and claiming to be better than God in its decisions, has fallen.

 

[jmcrae]

But sex may be used inside marraige too with or without the use of condoms. And, they may not even be Christians, in which case, they may not see sex outside marraige as a sin at all!

All that does is reduce their culpability; it doesn’t make it to be “not actually a sin in their case” - that would be relativism, and we don’t believe in relativism. They are still doing the same amount of damage to each other and to the whole world, whether they realize they are sinning, or not.

 

[vern_humphrey]

would you be opposed to the use of a condom if the woman would use abortion as birth control otherwise?

Would you be opposed to the use of a gun to kill your neighbor if the murderer would use a flamethrower otherwise?

 

[gardenswithkids]

so the basic answer i am getting (in a practical sense since no one is saying one or the other) is that they would rather a life be formed and then ended than the life be stopped from forming.
…
people are going to have sex. this is a fallen world and there will always be sin. so, should we allow their sin (which is going to happen) to cause murder to an innocent or allow them to only do harm to themselves (spiritually)? …
i am frustrated by some answers in here because it seems to show a lack of understanding of the world we live in and the willingness to let the innocent die to make a point that ABC is wrong.

I am frustrated by this response as we understand more of the world than you think. What you wrote is *not *the basic answer people are giving you. We are telling you that there is a direct connection between contraception and abortion. Read Griswold v Connecticut, a 1965 court decision that overturned a state law that prohibited contraception. Notice the point about “right of privacy”, which the Supreme Court sited in the Roe V Wade–the infamous decision to legalize abortion. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/griswold.html

Yes, people have sex. Having sex is not a sin. Before the widespread use of contraception, people married younger and had larger families. With the large scale use of contraception, more people engage in pre-marital sex and more abortions take place. (Also divorce increased, out of wedlock birth increased, and the definition of marriage and family is under attack.) There is a connection between the availability of contraception and the decline of a society’s sexual morality, just as there is a connection between the legalization of contraception and the legalization of abortion.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes, people have sex. Having sex is not a sin. Before the widespread use of contraception, people married younger and had larger families. With the large scale use of contraception, more people engage in pre-marital sex and more abortions take place. (Also divorce increased, out of wedlock birth increased, and the definition of marriage and family is under attack.) There is a connection between the availability of contraception and the decline of a society’s sexual morality, just as there is a connection between the legalization of contraception and the legalization of abortion.

Bingo!

The claim that condoms reduce “unwanted pregnancies” or “prevent AIDS” is simply false. Both out-of-wedlock births and abortions have increased since condoms became readily available.

As for AIDS, the poster child for the condoms-make-safe-sex is Botswana, where they followed the prescription and now have about 40% AIDS.

 

[Island_Oak]

This is both a simple and yet revealing question. Revealing–in that it shows how the Catholic Church in many instances and in the minds of many (even Catholics) is becoming the Church of the hypothetical, theoretical, or ideal–as opposed to the Church to which people turn in their struggle with real problems, challenges, temptations, competing/balancing demands of everyday life.

I look at this particular question and insert my kids + a significant other as actors to find an answer. Ideally, I’d want them to abstain to avoid the moral, spiritual, health, social and emotional pitfalls of unmarried sexual involvement. In reality, I know that a large percentage of young adults, Catholics included, will have sex before marriage. In that circumstance, you are left to consider consequences and repentance. Here, there really is no comparison. You simply cannot equate the reality that the harm caused and regret/angst/distress one might experience as a result of premarital sex/contracepting is radically different than would result from premarital sex that created an innocent human life one intentionally and deliberately destroyed. Period.

 

[st_lucy]

As a practicing Catholic I cannot condone either act. By telling someone that since they are not Catholic they can use a BC or have an abortion would be in a sin. We will be judged on what we know and we are asked to spread the truth. So by with holding the truth from someone who might be about to sin because he is not a Catholic or because he “doesn’t hold the same values” is in itself a sin. Yes the couple might not listen to your advice but the point is you have put it out there - hopefully in Christian way - and now it is up to the couple to take it or leave it.

 

[newbetx]

so you view the prevention as pregnancy as the same as murder?

If you think both are sins, then yes, they are equivalent in the final analysis. What do you think God’s consideration is?

 

[newbetx]

I look at this particular question and insert my kids + a significant other as actors to find an answer. Ideally, I’d want them to abstain to avoid the moral, spiritual, health, social and emotional pitfalls of unmarried sexual involvement. In reality, I know that a large percentage of young adults, Catholics included, will have sex before marriage. In that circumstance, you are left to consider consequences and repentance. Here, there really is no comparison. You simply cannot equate the reality that the harm caused and regret/angst/distress one might experience as a result of premarital sex/contracepting is radically different than would result from premarital sex that created an innocent human life one intentionally and deliberately destroyed. Period.

So is the message: “Don’t have sex until you are married. If you do decide to do something stupid like have sex with someone you wouldn’t want to marry, then use a condom.”?

Option 3. If you do do something stupid and have sex with someone and it results in the creation of a child. Do the right thing for the child. (either marry or give up the child for adoption.)

 

[mlchance]

so the basic answer i am getting (in a practical sense since no one is saying one or the other) is that they would rather a life be formed and then ended than the life be stopped from forming.

And yet no one has actually said that. Well, except for you.

…so, should we allow their sin (which is going to happen) to cause murder to an innocent or allow them to only do harm to themselves (spiritually)?

“We allow”? Who is this “we” you keep talking about? It certainly doesn’t include me. I’m not allowing (or not not allowing) them to do anything. They’re responsible for their actions; not me.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[hasikelee]

again, it is NOT an option for this couple. they WILL either use an condom or get an abortion. so which would you rather see them do?

Your logic structure is incorrect.

It should be:

“They WILL use a condom AND abort the child.”

Even the CDC ruled that with 100% perfect use (and assuming the condom is of the American-used brand), failure rates are around 15-35%. That means at best a condom works 85% of the time. Other brands have not been tested and some that have been tested are even worse.

If the couple about to engage in sexual intercourse will abort the child, they will do so whether a condom is used or not.

 

[PapaSquash]

would you be opposed to the use of a condom ?

Yes.

…if the woman would use abortion as birth control otherwise?

basically, if a woman (or couple) would abort the baby should pregnancy occur, would you rather them have used a condom to avoid the pregnancy (and eventual murder) in the first place?

I’m not sure what this last part is. There may have been a glitch - it seems as if some irrelevant material was added to your question.

 

[gardenswithkids]

This is both a simple and yet revealing question. Revealing–in that it shows how the Catholic Church in many instances and in the minds of many (even Catholics) is becoming the Church of the hypothetical, theoretical, or ideal–as opposed to the Church to which people turn in their struggle with real problems, challenges, temptations, competing/balancing demands of everyday life.

I look at this particular question and insert my kids + a significant other as actors to find an answer. Ideally, I’d want them to abstain to avoid the moral, spiritual, health, social and emotional pitfalls of unmarried sexual involvement. In reality, I know that a large percentage of young adults, Catholics included, will have sex before marriage. In that circumstance, you are left to consider consequences and repentance. Here, there really is no comparison. You simply cannot equate the reality that the harm caused and regret/angst/distress one might experience as a result of premarital sex/contracepting is radically different than would result from premarital sex that created an innocent human life one intentionally and deliberately destroyed. Period.

Island Oak, I like you, but it is a bit patronizing of you to suggest that we are merely being hypothetical while failing to help people in their struggle.

Real world example. First good friend I ever knew to get pregnant used condoms 2 out of 3 times on spring break. (Some teenage boys have stamina.) Third time they ran out of condoms. She lived in the dorm room next to me and I heard her cry the day she learned she was pregnant. She had already had one abortion earlier that year. She had told me about her abortion as if it was no big deal, but if it had really been no big deal to her, she never would have cried like that over the thought of another abortion. The cries I heard her cry were absolutely gut wrenching.

She kept that second baby. I even got to babysit him a couple of times when she came back to visit at our college. She dramatically changed her life, although she had some ups and downs along the way. The last time I saw her was at my wedding, along with her four children and her husband. We eventually lost touch, but I still think of her.

Repentance is real, but it often takes suffering consequences before people reach the point of repentance. Unplanned pregnancy, even those that end in abortion, isn’t always the end of the story. God does some very amazing things with us. That’s not hypothetical; it’s real.

 

[Island_Oak]

Island Oak, I like you, but it is a bit patronizing of you to suggest that we are merely being hypothetical while failing to help people in their struggle…

Not my intent…just an observation…and one not original to me.

…Repentance is real, but it often takes suffering consequences before people reach the point of repentance. Unplanned pregnancy, even those that end in abortion, isn’t always the end of the story. God does some very amazing things with us. That’s not hypothetical; it’s real.

Absolutely agree. Any one of us who has made a decision/error in judgment with tragic results and learned a painful lesson knows this all too well. The question posed, however, was…given one of two specific options, which would you chose? I picked based on what I judged to be the lesser of two evils~both in terms of impact on the actors and other (innocent) 3d parties. The question and my answer never touched on whether it was possible to repent and move on after an abortion.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Not my intent…just an observation…and one not original to me…

I know you aren’t the only one. I commented earlier to a similar accusation by the op. I don’t have much tolerance today for people in cyber-space commenting on how we don’t live in the “real world” or how we don’t have sympathy for those who struggle with real problems.

Absolutely agree. … The question posed, however, was…given one of two specific options, which would you chose? I picked based on what I judged to be the lesser of two evils~both in terms of impact on the actors and other (innocent) 3d parties.

We agree on many things, but I differ with you on this because one evil leads to the next. The original question posed limited the options to only two bad choices, with the faulty premise of “let people use condoms or they’ll abort their babies.” Hasikelee rephrased it better: “They WILL use a condom AND abort the child.” The real world example I gave was a woman I knew who used condoms and still got pregant. That’s not an isolated incident; most girls and women who get abortions used contraception. That* is *the real world. Condoms sometimes fail and abortions often follow.

 

[Debra_C]

would you be opposed to the use of a condom if the woman would use abortion as birth control otherwise?

basically, if a woman (or couple) would abort the baby should pregnancy occur, would you rather them have used a condom to avoid the pregnancy (and eventual murder) in the first place?

I agree emphatically with the first response. If a couple is determined not to have a baby, they have absolutely no business having sex. The natural biological consequences of sex is, after all, pregnancy. This is pretty much a no brainer. We are not animals–we do not have to behave as a slave to our hormones.

This is a cop out for the real issue at hand–a complete lack of common sense and self control. The human race did not find an inherent need for 1 million plus abortions per year before the advent of reliable birth control. Why should such be necessary now? Because we (society as a whole) have thrown all logic and decency out the window for a me-first, instant gratification way of thinking. The same attitude is also displayed in the American frenzy of spending money we don’t have acquiring masses of things we don’t really need because it just wouldn’t be stylish enough to have less than a Humvee or a BMW.

This whole way of thinking is simply indefensible. Such was the stuff of the fall of Rome.