condoms vs nfp. what's really the dif??

[Aloysiusbk]

condoms are fine in my books, then again i am atheist soo yeh, i feel this board needs a non-religious opinion, in my opinion i think it should be up to the persons beliefs whether or not they want to use a condom or not, but cos i dont believe in god, or religion of any kind i have no problem with condoms, hell im 17 and im nowhere near a virgin AND ITS AWESOME and if there really is a hell? man, totally worth it

 

[davidv]

condoms are fine in my books, then again i am atheist soo yeh, i feel this board needs a non-religious opinion, in my opinion i think it should be up to the persons beliefs whether or not they want to use a condom or not, but cos i dont believe in god, or religion of any kind i have no problem with condoms, hell im 17 and im nowhere near a virgin AND ITS AWESOME and if there really is a hell? man, totally worth it

Are you saying that sexual morality is just an opinion?

If so, what is your evidence that it is?

 

[Coder]

So why are condoms SO wrong wrong wrong, and yet NFP is completely ok?

NFP is based on trust in God. Our sense of discipline and attitude toward sex are different. I think that the discipline of absitenence itself has value and helps us to grow in virtue and a respectful attitude toward sex. Condom use does not have this. Plus, God is the creator and we don’t take matters into our own hands.

 

[JayLynn]

Does the church make any exceptions to this??

I have been practicing NFP during my marriage of 9 years and I had no problem with the “no condoms” rule. I have read several books on how to do NFP properly and what signs to watch for, but my last two pregnancies have still been unplanned. I am now pregnant with my fifth and I don’t think we can afford any more.

What am I supposed to do in this situation? Never be intimate with my husband again, because NFP just isn’t working for us? or just trust that God will provide? Also I don’t know if emotionally or physically I can handle anymore.

Don’t get me wrong I LOVE all my children dearly and I don’t regret a single one. But it’s important to me that I am the best mom I can be and that means I want to be able to give each child lots of love and attention and not spread myself too thin. I don’t want to be too tired to be able to properly provide for my children. Nor do I want my older children end up having to help me care for the younger ones, that is not their responsibility.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Well the pithy answer is that using condoms is always grave matter and using them with knowledge and consent may be a mortal sin. Mortal sins cut off the life of grace in the soul and unrepented may lead to an eternity of torment.

Using NFP in order to not have children without a grave reason (such as impending penury) is also wrong. Otherwise NFP is the holy and happy way.

The priest’s words are yet another example of infidelity and disobedience. I use NFP. If I used condoms I’d fear for the destiny of my immortal soul.

 

[John_of_Woking]

if there really is a hell? man, totally worth it

Nothing’s worth hell. Trust me

 

[John_of_Woking]

We do know for certain that God is against contraception. God killed Onan for contraception (Gen 38:8-10), as the answer by a renowned Catholic biblical scholar affirms:

ONAN
Answer by Fr. John Echert on May, 3, 2008 (EWTN):
The sin is NOT that of adultery, which is to take the wife of another man. In fact, it was expected and eventually required that if a man died without a son to continue his posterity, his brother was to take his wife after his death as his own and raise up a family by her. So the sin was not in taking his deceased brothers wife but in spilling his seed on the ground. This action is explicit in the text–spilled his seed on the ground–and is the most obvious cause for which he was put to death by God Himself. This is an important text which supports the moral teaching of the Church–and nature–that contraception is mortally sinful.

Why shouldn’t everyone believe that God has given us all the answers when His only Son, Jesus of Nazareth, gave us His Catholic Church – “He that hears you hears Me.” (See Mt 18:15-17), and “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20)? Her dogma and doctrine, in faith and morals, reveal His requirements for our salvation.

Exactly. For goodness sake. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world at the cost of his soul? Let’s accept Holy Mother Church knows best for us. Yes even more than sophisticated modern man.

 

[Observer3]

Observer: you state that you are a christian. Wouldn’t you agree that God’s knowledge is higher than ours? Are you going to disobey God just because he asks something of you that you don’t understand? Imagine if Mary had done that. God was asking something of her that was not only illogical, but dangerous. Imagine if Abraham had done that? And God was asking something and detailing something FAR more illogical than anything you or I are likely to encounter. How is a post menopausal woman supposed to conceive?

God asks faith from us, not full understanding.

You raise a very important question. I agree completely that God’s knowledge is higher than ours. I would even say he’s all-knowing. There’s no possible way we could ever understand everything, and why would we want to? There’s a beauty in mystery, but this is where man comes in and it can get dangerous.

The problem is, we have hundreds of religions that claim they know what God has said, yet we know God does not speak out loud in voice - God communicates best through the heart where he resides in all of us in seed form (at least what I believe). When I read your comment “Disobey God” to me I don’t see these rules as God’s work, but I see rules invented by men. I believe one should question everything and ask what motives the church might have for trying to force a rule. Sometimes these motives are for the interest of the people, other times they appear to be in the interest of the church. Basically, what this all comes down to is men asking other people to give them the benefit of the doubt, when they in fact have no basis for their claim that they know what God really said. I am a Christian, but I don’t believe in everything the bible says. Why? Because it was written by people, and people are flawed, therefore every church and organization has flaws. Fear can be a super powerful motivator (and it is good in certain contexts) but it can also be abused to make people do things for the benefit of an organization. I’ve always been weary of anything that uses strong fear to try to control people. These things must be carefully observed and studied - not just accepted because a priest said something is wrong. The conception rules fall into this category of fear based rules to try to increase numbers for the church.

Lastly, I don’t base my judgments solely on my head. In fact, most of it I base on what feels wrong or right. I believe if you’re in tune with your heart and intuition, God’s answer is always there. Ultimately it’s up to you to decide what you feel is right. God gave you this wonderful intellect and heart to decide for yourself. I hope this helps.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Re: post # 108 Ah so it’s one big catholic deception…to swell the coffers. The Theology of the Body is a cover up . Oh If it feels good it’s ok . Sorry but in all charity your post is A prime example of relativism at work.

 

[Observer3]

Sorry John, but relativism is our world. There are very few things that are absolutes in our world, and I don’t believe God or Jesus would want us to follow any rule blindly without considering the context it was used in. You can believe what others have created or you can challenge things and find out for yourself what Jesus and God might have meant…

No one has yet been able to say how using NFP or condom are any different. Lets just look at the facts…

1. NFP and condoms do not change the intention of sex.
2. Condoms are proven to prevent STD more than using nothing (which is why the Pope justified them). This would save lives, which makes them pro-life technology.
3. If the pro-creative aspect of sex must always be intact, then no one should be having sex when their wife is already pregnant or after menopause.
4. Condoms don’t completely stop God’s will. So the argument that they do is not true.
5. Couples with STD’s or HIV cannot simply be told to abstain from sex. Condoms are a blessing for these people who are told to not hold back intimacy.

Why would a church want people not to use this then with all of the above true? I’ll let you decide…

 

[bo_leggs]

Sorry John, but relativism is our world. There are very few things that are absolutes in our world, and I don’t believe God or Jesus would want us to follow any rule blindly without considering the context it was used in. You can believe what others have created or you can challenge things and find out for yourself what Jesus and God might have meant…

But you do admit that there are absolutes. Good, that’s a start. However, God and Jesus do expect us to obey them strictly on the basis of faith. Take Abraham for example, God told him to take his son, Issac, and offer him as a holocaust; and Abraham took Issac and was going to do so . . . ON FAITH. The Church does give us reasons for its rules, we have only to read them. One good place to start is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Bible, and papal encyclicals.

No one has yet been able to say how using NFP or condom are any different. Lets just look at the facts…

Have you not been reading? Several people have clearly shown the difference.

1. NFP and condoms do not change the intention of sex.

Wrong!!! NFP can be used for both preventing pregnancy or for achieving it, and uses a woman’s natural cycle of fertility and infertility. A condom does not.

1. Condoms are proven to prevent STD more than using nothing (which is why the Pope justified them). This would save lives, which makes them pro-life technology.

No, the pope DID NOT JUSTIFY CONDOMS!!! He said it could indicate a moral awakening in someone like a male prostitute, but CONDOM USE IS STILL GRAVELY WRONG!!! The only sure method of avoiding STDs and AIDS is ABSTINANCE, and a married couple should not be worried about STDs if they are faithful to each other.

1. If the pro-creative aspect of sex must always be intact, then no one should be having sex when their wife is already pregnant or after menopause.

Wrong again!. These times are again in compliance with a woman’s natural cycles and combines both the unitive and pro-creative of the marriage act.

1. Condoms don’t completely stop God’s will. So the argument that they do is not true.

The problem is that the intention for their use is to separate the unitive and pro-creative aspects of the marriage act. That’s why they are wrong.

1. Couples with STD’s or HIV cannot simply be told to abstain from sex. Condoms are a blessing for these people who are told to not hold back intimacy.

Again, condoms are not 100% effective in avoiding STDs and HIV/AIDS. The only thing that is 100% effective is abstinence.

Why would a church want people not to use this then with all of the above true?

But your statements are not true, they are all false.

I’ll let you decide…

 

[Abu]

JayLynn
Does the church make any exceptions to this??

Not to contraception which is objectively intrinsically wrong in marriage.
This website enables the worthwhile use of NBR through NaPro Technology for those who need assistance: fertilitycare.com.au/?page_id=7

The Q&A here are very helpful and specific needs are covered: ewtn.com/vexperts/conference.htm
Just choose the right section.

 

[Abu]

Observer3
Lastly, I don’t base my judgments solely on my head. In fact, most of it I base on what feels wrong or right. I believe if you’re in tune with your heart and intuition, God’s answer is always there. Ultimately it’s up to you to decide what you feel is right. God gave you this wonderful intellect and heart to decide for yourself.

1. Feelings for making moral judgments are absolutely wrong – which is precisely why God gave us a brain so that the intellect can operate through reason from cause to effect. The misuse of feelings is why the world is in such a mess.
2. That is why God gave us a conscience so that we can reason from the natural moral law as to the good or evil in an action, which law even pagans like Cicero and others acknowledged.
3. That is why God gave us His Son in the Christ to redeem us from the chosen evil in our first parents, and to build His Church which teaches infallibly on faith and morals because She has His authority and mandate.
   The airy fairy idea of rejecting Christ and His Church for the cacophony of selfism, opinions, feelings, desires, prejudices – behaving like a tin god – is just what the chaos in the world exhibits.

As you don’t have the Tradition of the Fathers and Doctors of Christ’s Catholic Church from the beginning, how can you know unless you are shown? As the eunuch said to Phillip: “How can I know unless some man shows me?” (Acts 8:31). Jesus did not leave us orphans; He gave us His Church and She gave us the Bible.

Crystal clear is the truth that Christ did not leave us orphans: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) "But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.” (JN 16:13).

 

[twoangels]

Does the church make any exceptions to this??

I have been practicing NFP during my marriage of 9 years and I had no problem with the “no condoms” rule. I have read several books on how to do NFP properly and what signs to watch for, but my last two pregnancies have still been unplanned. I am now pregnant with my fifth and I don’t think we can afford any more.

What am I supposed to do in this situation? Never be intimate with my husband again, because NFP just isn’t working for us? or just trust that God will provide? Also I don’t know if emotionally or physically I can handle anymore.

Don’t get me wrong I LOVE all my children dearly and I don’t regret a single one. But it’s important to me that I am the best mom I can be and that means I want to be able to give each child lots of love and attention and not spread myself too thin. I don’t want to be too tired to be able to properly provide for my children. Nor do I want my older children end up having to help me care for the younger ones, that is not their responsibility.

‎"Rejoice in the Lord always. I say it again: rejoice! Your kindness should be known to all. The Lord is near. Have no anxiety at all, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God. Then the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus." Philippians 4:4-7

My advise is to hand these worries and concerns over to Christ. Entrust them to His Sacred Heart and to pray with your husband about your struggles. Perhaps Christ will guide you to be a little more strict and less risk taking with NFP, or perhaps He will cause you to spiritually grow. God isn’t going to get in the way of your desire to be the best mom you can be, but He may guide you to not be so hard on yourself and to be a bit humbled in helping you to realize that having your older kids help you out might not only be good for you, but good for your children.

My husband and I have been facing hard times as well. Now God is showing us just how in control He’s been in our situation and how blessed we both are. Looking back, I realize that most of what has been making me feel so overwhelmed and like I can’t handle more are my fears of the future. Another great passage that might help you is Matthew 6. Its a great passage to read when we’re fretting, feeling out of control and overwhelmed.

 

[Observer3]

Does the church make any exceptions to this??

I have been practicing NFP during my marriage of 9 years and I had no problem with the “no condoms” rule. I have read several books on how to do NFP properly and what signs to watch for, but my last two pregnancies have still been unplanned. I am now pregnant with my fifth and I don’t think we can afford any more.

What am I supposed to do in this situation? Never be intimate with my husband again, because NFP just isn’t working for us? or just trust that God will provide? Also I don’t know if emotionally or physically I can handle anymore.

Don’t get me wrong I LOVE all my children dearly and I don’t regret a single one. But it’s important to me that I am the best mom I can be and that means I want to be able to give each child lots of love and attention and not spread myself too thin. I don’t want to be too tired to be able to properly provide for my children. Nor do I want my older children end up having to help me care for the younger ones, that is not their responsibility.

Stop listening to the people on here who see everything in absolutes. Jesus wouldn’t want you to be in exhausted and a poor mother by taking on more than you can handle. You can keep chasing those man-invented church ideals, or you can be more practical and do what’s in the best interest of your family. Use some kind of better birth control.

 

[SonCatcher]

Does the church make any exceptions to this??

I have been practicing NFP during my marriage of 9 years and I had no problem with the “no condoms” rule. I have read several books on how to do NFP properly and what signs to watch for, but my last two pregnancies have still been unplanned. I am now pregnant with my fifth and I don’t think we can afford any more.

What am I supposed to do in this situation? Never be intimate with my husband again, because NFP just isn’t working for us? or just trust that God will provide? Also I don’t know if emotionally or physically I can handle anymore.

Don’t get me wrong I LOVE all my children dearly and I don’t regret a single one. But it’s important to me that I am the best mom I can be and that means I want to be able to give each child lots of love and attention and not spread myself too thin. I don’t want to be too tired to be able to properly provide for my children. Nor do I want my older children end up having to help me care for the younger ones, that is not their responsibility.

You may need to shift your attention toward other body signs or more nuanced interpretation. Perhaps a refresher course is in order, too.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

I want to preface this with saying I don’t have this viewpoint…pretty obvious, if you look at my info, but…well, there it is…

This is what I am*** understanding*** your view to be…when you have marital relations, this is the sacrament of marriage, and you are expected/required to give of yourself fully to one another, body fluids and all…b/c if you are blocking the ability to procreate, you are violating the sacrament, you are not letting “the two become one”.

Am I understanding this right? or am I off the mark?

Mind, in an ideal world, I admire that view, and it would be wonderful if one were to achieve that idea, but…well, let’s just say that I do NOT see this as a perfect world.
Do with that what you will.

 

[SonCatcher]

I want to preface this with saying I don’t have this viewpoint…pretty obvious, if you look at my info, but…well, there it is…

This is what I am*** understanding*** your view to be…when you have marital relations, this is the sacrament of marriage, and you are expected/required to give of yourself fully to one another, body fluids and all…b/c if you are blocking the ability to procreate, you are violating the sacrament, you are not letting “the two become one”.

Am I understanding this right? or am I off the mark?

Mind, in an ideal world, I admire that view, and it would be wonderful if one were to achieve that idea, but…well, let’s just say that I do NOT see this as a perfect world.
Do with that what you will.

You do seem to understand correctly.

While this is not an ideal world, part of our call as Christians is to work with Christ to bring it to perfection. In order to do that, we must live according to the ideal and, of course, evangelize the rest to bring them to that ideal, as well.

 

[pfeifer999]

I have a simple question.

If it is wrong to deny the procreative aspects of the conjugal act and consider only the unitive, why is it OK to insist on the opposite?

It seems to me that a lot of people who defend Humanae Vitae seem to equivocate. On the one hand they talk about the conjugal act as “a great gift” to marriage, yet on the other hand they slip into a judgmental, Puritanical view as soon as one starts talking about the unitive aspects of it independent from the procreative; at that point it’s dismissed as merely “lust” or “carnal desire”.

Anyone who has actually practiced NFP knows that it restricts sexual activity to precisely those times when the woman is not interested in being intimate. NPF utterly destroys the unitive and bonding aspects of sex, and to say otherwise is to delude oneself.

Does God want us to cheapen the unitive aspect of this great gift he created? Does he want to make sex a tool strictly for male satisfaction?

Please don’t respond with the usual gobbledygook about “unique procreative aspect” or some other set of code words, because that’s just a way of stating the obvious fact that whether you use NFP or a barrier method, or for that matter sterilization, your purpose is the same, to enjoy the unitive aspects without the procreative.

And please don’t quote Genesis 1:28 to me. One can ‘be fruitful and multiply’ for years and then use birth control. If you do want to quote Genesis 1:28, you might also want to quote Genesis 1:29 and ask yourself how well you’ve adhered to God’s desire that you only eat plants.

I’m a faithful and loyal Catholic, but it seems to me the Church squandered a wonderful teaching opportunity with Humanae Vitae, and took a reactionary stance to events that were purely temporal (ie the ‘sexual revolution’). Openness to God’s Will and to new human life should have been and should continue to be the point of the conversation, not the means and methods.

Who is better living out God’s wishes; a couple who have 7-8 kids in 15 years then get sterilized, or a couple who has 2 kids and uses NFP?

Put differently, if I believe those who would elevate NFP to the level of an eight sacrament, barrier methods are actually LESS reliable than NFP. So if one uses a barrier method, aren’t they actually being MORE open to life than those who use NFP?

 

[Vico]

I have a simple question.

If it is wrong to deny the procreative aspects of the conjugal act and consider only the unitive, why is it OK to insist on the opposite?

Does God want us to cheapen the unitive aspect of this great gift he created?

Does he want to make sex a tool strictly for male satisfaction?

Who is better living out God’s wishes; a couple who have 7-8 kids in 15 years then get sterilized, or a couple who has 2 kids and uses NFP?

So if one uses a barrier method, aren’t they actually being MORE open to life than those who use NFP?

When we establlish the matrimonial covenant we grant the rights to the act apt for the creation of children, regardless of the fertility of the individuals at the time of the covenent, or when exercising that right. This form of coitus is to be used then is what is of the covenent, not one with a barrier which is not unitive. The couple does not determine what is unitive and what is not.

Devices or hormones which are at least potentially abortive are uncharitible. Sterilization is mutilation and is thus sinful, destroying what is functional.
The use of the conjugal right with NFP is not specifically for pleasure, rather it is to avoid sin of immorality. That is why we read in the 1 Cor 7, which also shows that periodic fasting is good (used with NFP). *

The obligation to mankind to populate the earth comes with the exercise of the right, but with serious and moral motive, the couples rights justify not reproducing. This was explained by Pope Pius XII.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P511029.HTM

• 1 Cor 7:1-6

Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: “It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,” but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband. A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife. Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control. This I say by way of concession, however, not as a command.