Conference on Evolution

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Phil Skell is getting on in years and no longer does work in science. And it seems he’s joined the ranks of other accomplished, but elderly scientists, who have announced:

“Archaeopteryx is a fraud and insects are smarter than humans.” Fred Hoyle

“Black people aren’t as smart as white people.” James Watson

“Yet many popularizers of Darwin’s theory now claim that without the study of ancient biological history, our students will not be prepared to engage in the great variety of modern experimental activities expected of them. The public should view with profound alarm this unnecessary and misguided reintroduction of speculative historical, philosophical and religious ideas into the realms of experimental science.” Phil Skell

It’s unfortunate, but it happens sometimes. It hardly needs to be noted that paleontology is not about “philosophical and religious ideas.”
 
Since you just returned from what must have been an enlightening experience at the conference what can you tell us about the difference in the way Americans view evolution and the way other people view evolution?
Namesake, by “Americans” do you mean Fundamentalist YEC Americans? Because I do not view evolution differently than the Italians, Spaniards, Poles, French, and Argentinians with whom I shared the conference. Together, we understood evolution as articulated by biologists, paleontologists, and geneticists.

StAnastasia
 
Namesake, by “Americans” do you mean Fundamentalist YEC Americans? Because I do not view evolution differently than the Italians, Spaniards, Poles, French, and Argentinians with whom I shared the conference. Together, we understood evolution as articulated by biologists, paleontologists, and geneticists.

StAnastasia
I’m not really sure what I mean. I have seen polls indicating that less than half of Americans accept evolution theory as true. So then, we are kind of defined by the majority who reject evolution. Maybe my thinking isn’t right, but I would say that the majority of the developed world accepts evolution theory without difficulty except the USA where the majority doesn’t accept evolution.

So Americans in the main reject evolution. Protestant fundamentalism started in the USA for the most part and it seems to be pretty strongly entrenched in American life. To me that is a massive dichotomy because of the science done in the USA. The space shuttle was just launched a couple of days ago. What other country does such wonderful science and yet has a majority of the population rejecting one of the most clearly supported theories in all of science? That’s a real paradox.
 
Hey everyone,

In my scanning of the threads I didn’t see this one and started my own thread. I hope you don’t mind but, I have some information that I think everyone would find interesting so I will quote for you.
Hello everyone,
I was watching the Discovery Channel some time ago and I caught the tail end of this very interesting show (I apologize for the fact that I never caught the name of the show so I can’t point you to it). In it The Lady Archeologist had discovered a T-Rex fossil skeloton. The had to break it up to move it from the site. What they found inside was some fully preserved soft tissue. The show narrarator was dumbfounded by this because soft tissue is soposed to disapear after 2 Million years (which sounds a bit long to be but whatever) so how could it be in the bones of an animal that has been dead for 65 Million years.
I did find this link to MSNBC on the story msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683/
and some more on Robert Sungenis’ website catholicintl.com/scienceissues/trex2.pdf which has some links as well.
To me at least this would put the earth at a lil’ bit to young for evolution to work in any major way.
I though everyone might find this interesting and add something new to the conversation.
 
Hey everyone,

In my scanning of the threads I didn’t see this one and started my own thread. I hope you don’t mind but, I have some information that I think everyone would find interesting so I will quote for you.
Ahhh yes the soft tissue question. This shows that our understanding of fossilisation was incorrect. I believe they are reconsidering the concept and refining it. It has been along time since that discovery so they should have some published answers by now…
 
I’m not an idiot. I know how far away the stars are and I am fully aware of the speed of light.

The universe was created with the appearance of age. God created Adam and Eve as adults, not zygotes. He created fully grown plants and animals. He created the stars with a purpose (Gen 1:14) therefore they needed to be seen.

Gary
Ahhhh of course, light created in motion so we would have the illusion that our universe was billions of years old and had formed naturally over time… Of course thats the most reasonable answer… Occum away with you… You filthy razor…
 
“tear apart evolution theory” How would religious fundamentalists do that?

“erase the theory of biological evolution”? Who wants to erase it? And how would they do that?

Speaking as a Catholic, and based on the Church’s position, there is nothing wrong with comparative biology and genetic research. Evolution, as described here, has nothing to do with math. By making science=evolution, I don’t think you’re considering how false that statement is. When I took chemistry in college - zero involved evolution. My training in electronics included zero about evolution.

However, the big problem is the atheist - evolution connection which is being heavily marketed here, for example: Genesis? Pure fiction! Adam and Eve first parents of the entire human race? Ha! And don’t even get me started with that Eve was formed from Adam’s side nonsense! Sound familiar?

Don’t get me wrong. Like I said, comparative biology and genetics are fine.

Peace,
Ed
How can you have multiple additive mutations (genetics) over time without resulting in evolution?
 
Ahhhh of course, light created in motion so we would have the illusion that our universe was billions of years old and had formed naturally over time… Of course thats the most reasonable answer… Occum away with you… You filthy razor…
I find it odd that you believe that evolution is simpler than Gen 1-2. The odds are so much against evolution that I just cannot find in myself enough faith to believe it. It would be easier to believe that the universe sits on the back of a giant turtle. But, far be it from me to tell you what fairy tales you can or cannot believe in. Just don’t try to force your nonsense on me.

Gary
 
ISo Americans in the main reject evolution. Protestant fundamentalism started in the USA for the most part and it seems to be pretty strongly entrenched in American life. To me that is a massive dichotomy because of the science done in the USA. The space shuttle was just launched a couple of days ago. What other country does such wonderful science and yet has a majority of the population rejecting one of the most clearly supported theories in all of science? That’s a real paradox.
Namesake, we have at present a bifurcated culture. On the one hand we have a scientifically educated part of the population who are involved in university education, medical and pharmaceutical research, the space program, etc. On the other hand we have a scientifically uneducated part of the population who are not involved in these activities. The odd thing is that while there is some relevance to the blue-state-red-state distinction (with blue states having a higher proportion of the scientifically educated people) this is not a really clear cut matter. The two sections of the population coexist quite peacefully until school board and text book issues arise, when all heck can break loose, as it may in Texas.

StAnastasia
 
How do you figure that?
Cancer cells are mutated cells that grow. It can be a chemical reaction that causes the mutation or perhaps random ionizing radiation.

If we developed a computer model it would be similar to taking a very complex program and randomly knocking out some of the code, perhaps a control function in the code which kept the code from producing too much of what it does. Computer programers call them bugs.

In the case of genetics, the code and functions are incredibly more complex. But, either way mutation always mean a degradation in functionality, not an increase.

I like to call this conservation of information. Information always moves from a higher ordered of state to a lesser ordered state. In thermodynamics it is called entropy.

Functionality —> is information ----> is relational ordered state. The natural progression of ordered relational state to disorder is a physical law, the second law of thermodynamics.
 
It’s called cancer.
LOL Cancer is adult formed cell replication error. I was thinking about things like colors of wings and petals. New kinds of petals. Height. Ultrachromotic vision. Increased Bone density. resistance to Heart attack etc…
 
I find it odd that you believe that evolution is simpler than Gen 1-2. The odds are so much against evolution that I just cannot find in myself enough faith to believe it. It would be easier to believe that the universe sits on the back of a giant turtle. But, far be it from me to tell you what fairy tales you can or cannot believe in. Just don’t try to force your nonsense on me.

Gary
It’s not simpilar. Genisis is without the explantion of a crerator by far the most simple example. However simplicity does not mean truth. I understand evolution because I know the evidence I see the evidence and i work with the evidence. It’s all about the evidence. And genesis 1-2 has none and infact is inspite of the evidence.
 
Cancer cells are mutated cells that grow. It can be a chemical reaction that causes the mutation or perhaps random ionizing radiation.

If we developed a computer model it would be similar to taking a very complex program and randomly knocking out some of the code, perhaps a control function in the code which kept the code from producing too much of what it does. Computer programers call them bugs.

In the case of genetics, the code and functions are incredibly more complex. But, either way mutation always mean a degradation in functionality, not an increase.

I like to call this conservation of information. Information always moves from a higher ordered of state to a lesser ordered state. In thermodynamics it is called entropy.

Functionality —> is information ----> is relational ordered state. The natural progression of ordered relational state to disorder is a physical law, the second law of thermodynamics.
You don’t really know what your talking about do you? You never studied genetics have you? I mean I can understand why someone who has never studied it would be so confused. And would also not know of 3 obvious human examples which there is a highly beneificial mutation. Clues are eyesight in women, bone density/streangth in Scandanavia and Resistance to Heart attacks in Greece…

It is rather cute how you think you know, science is scary and confusing and it’s easy to make incorrect correlation.
 
Science is all about natural causation. Or material causation, if you prefer. The basis of the conflict between religion and science is that for most of time, the religious answer to material phenomena was the only available answer. Now there is a “choice”. But it is not really a choice, because science gives the most realistic answers and explanations about nature. We know this because science works.
As an ex-Christian, I do sympathize. It is inevitable that some theological ideas about creation are being challenged, and indeed, overthrown by science. But this is not science’s aim. Science is a discovery.

Humans have flawed reasoning [at least some of the time], flawed perception [like with mirages].

Science tries to address these things. First of all, the scientific method avoids confirmation bias by requiring that things not be proved, but disproved. Scientific hypotheses are only accepted as scientific theory [and then only tentatively, subject as always, to further data] if they cannot be falsified.

Thus evolutionary theory has survived, through the revisionism of the addition of information, such as genetics, which leads to the modern synthesis of Neo-Darwinian Theory. [The Standard Model]

My point is that theological investigations start out with the assumption that god is real. So theological investigators can be subject to what is called confirmation bias. This can be seen most clearly with Creationist scientists like Michael Behe and the Discovery Institute.

Not so with Kenneth B. Miller. Ken is a disciplined scientist, and a Catholic. He is intellectually honest, and knows of the traps of confirmation bias. So he accepts his faith, and he accepts evolution.

The late Pope, John Paul II, also accepted evolution. But the Holy father was not a scientist. Therefore he did not understand some of the implications of science. He only urged Christians to accept what science knows now, and for the rest, he urged us to take " a leap of faith". This is not how science works. Science works by always asking the next question. That is how science functions. Scientists are never totally satisfied with a final answer. We strive for truth without ever claiming truth.

Theologians often claim an absolute truth, but ask that we accept that “truth” on faith. This can be a big problem, for the reasons I have outlined. If you look for truth when you believe you already have all the answers, then your knowledge will not grow. Your perception of reality will not change, and it will be an internal reality that may show only poor correlation with external reality.

Science is not anti-god per.se., it is simply that god does not come into consideration at all when looking at the natural world. In the last 400 hundred years at least, not one successful scientific theory has needed god as causation.

Part of the problem is that spiritual matters, god, or the non-material world [if it exists, and IMHO it does not] is not falsifiable in a scientific sense. However, circumstantial evidence abounds that god is only very weakly, or not at all, interactive with the material world. This follows from the paragraph above.

This does indeed pose a problem for all religions, as they need to explain why such interaction does not occur. Further, a resistance against the findings of science makes theology look all the more unreasonable. There is temporary refuge to be found in the “god of the gaps argument”, but this is a false haven as science soon progresses to explain what was once unknown.

So on the surface, there seems to be no conflict between science and religion. But on a far deeper level, there is. This is not science’s fault. Science cannot change, because then it will no longer be science. So theological thought must evolve. Dogmatic ideas, especially about the creation myth, must change. I see no future for any religion that is not prepared to change. Theological ethics must also evolve, to become more engaged with what is known now, and not what is in the past.

The absolute presumption of the existence of god must go. A possibility of god I have no problem with.

I leave you with a final question:-

Did god make man in his own image, or did man make god in his own image?

Finally, I wish you all well. Seek. Question. Above all, love others. Not because it is god’s command, but because you want to. Not for reward or punishment. The lure of heaven or the eternal fire, but because you want to. Simple human feelings, programed by evolution into us, we splendid apes. 🙂

Adieu!
 
You don’t really know what your talking about do you? You never studied genetics have you? I mean I can understand why someone who has never studied it would be so confused. And would also not know of 3 obvious human examples which there is a highly beneificial mutation. Clues are eyesight in women, bone density/streangth in Scandanavia and Resistance to Heart attacks in Greece…

It is rather cute how you think you know, science is scary and confusing and it’s easy to make incorrect correlation.
All cases where there was in increased functionality due to mutation is due to the information already being there and compensating for the defect caused by mutation.

An example that some like to point to is where people with sickle cell anemia are less prone to getting malaria. The problem with this case is that sickle cell anemia is actually a decrease in functionality not an increase. The blood is less capable of carrying oxygen. I don’t consider this an increase in functionality any more than amputation of my hand curing my infection is an increase in functionality.

I don’t really care what you think I know or don’t know. I don’t think calling me ignorant helps your argument. You need to come up with a valid mechanism on how mutation can naturally bring about evolution. We know that mutation brings about cancer. This is scientific fact, and it is consistent with the second law of thermodynamics. Mutation bringing about increased functionality is inconsistent with the second law of thermodynamics. Think of the second law of thermodynamics in terms of mechanical advantage. Energy can not be created or destroyed, the first law of thermodynamics, but the energy content of a system is very different given the state of the system, like leverage giving you the ability to do more work. Natural law dictates that the universe moves from more mechanical advantage, more ordered relational state, to less mechanical advantage, less ordered relational state. The theory of evolution by mutation is inconsistent with this reality. I believe in scientific laws over theory. Anything else is more of a question of faith.
 
All cases where there was in increased functionality due to mutation is due to the information already being there and compensating for the defect caused by mutation.

An example that some like to point to is where people with sickle cell anemia are less prone to getting malaria. The problem with this case is that sickle cell anemia is actually a decrease in functionality not an increase. The blood is less capable of carrying oxygen. I don’t consider this an increase in functionality any more than amputation of my hand curing my infection is an increase in functionality.

I don’t really care what you think I know or don’t know. I don’t think calling me ignorant helps your argument. You need to come up with a valid mechanism on how mutation can naturally bring about evolution. We know that mutation brings about cancer. This is scientific fact, and it is consistent with the second law of thermodynamics. Mutation bringing about increased functionality is inconsistent with the second law of thermodynamics. Think of the second law of thermodynamics in terms of mechanical advantage. Energy can not be created or destroyed, the first law of thermodynamics, but the energy content of a system is very different given the state of the system, like leverage giving you the ability to do more work. Natural law dictates that the universe moves from more mechanical advantage, more ordered relational state, to less mechanical advantage, less ordered relational state. The theory of evolution by mutation is inconsistent with this reality. I believe in scientific laws over theory. Anything else is more of a question of faith.
Examples of Beneficial Mutations and Natural Selection - Here’s 15
gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html

Also since you don’t understand genetics I wouldn’t expect you to know or understand the genetic concept of Duplication where unequal recombination leads to the addition of genetic data.

Also I’m sure a replication error could create additional data. Not that it is really needed we have heaps of data to work with since the Aomeba is the largest know genome and some fish is the least. Lot of scope there.

I knew you would bring up sickle cells thats why i didn’t mention it and instead mentioned increased bone density (to the point of virtually unbreakable), cholesterol build up resistance and ultra-chromatic vision in women… beneficial mutations in humans. The bone density one is an addition of an allele so… I’ll find the articles for you tomorrow at uni… I will also ask my genetics and biochem lecturers for more positive genetic mutations in humans.

Your wrong… You fail…
 
From the blog Pharyngula
Code:
I am asking a simple question: show me the evidence (journal, date, page) that new information, measured in bits or any appropriate units, can emerge from random variation and natural selection, without intelligent agency.
Code:
Show me. If you can't, then why is my question fradulent?
– Dr Michael Egnor
In Reply
Code:
Labbe P, Berthomieu A, Berticat C, Alout H, Raymond M, Lenormand T, Weill M. (2007) Independent Duplications of the Acetylcholinesterase Gene Conferring Insecticide Resistance in the Mosquito Culex pipiens. Mol Biol Evol. [Epub ahead of print]
Code:
Gene duplication is thought to be the main potential source of material for the evolution of new gene functions. Several models have been proposed for the evolution of new functions through duplication, most based on ancient events (My). We provide molecular evidence for the occurrence of several (at least 3) independent duplications of the ace-1 locus in the mosquito Culex pipiens, selected in response to insecticide pressure that probably occurred very recently (< 40 years ago). This locus encodes the main target of several insecticides, the acetylcholinesterase. The duplications described consist of two alleles of ace-1, one susceptible and one resistant to insecticide, located on the same chromosome. These events were detected in different parts of the world and probably resulted from distinct mechanisms. We propose that duplications were selected because they reduce the fitness cost associated with the resistant ace-1 allele through the generation of persistent, advantageous heterozygosis. The rate of duplication of ace-1 in C. pipiens is probably underestimated, but seems to be rather high.
 
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