Conference on Evolution

[StAnastasia]

He reasoned that God could raise Isaac back to life and he was right.

What verse do you find this in? It’s not in my bible.

 

[StAnastasia]

But Abraham didn’t actually sacrifice his son, remember?
… He actually said, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.” See how he said “we” will come back?

So was Abraham lying to his servants, or was he intending to disobey God and not go through with the slaughter? It seems it must be one or the other.

 

[StAnastasia]

This is the Bible. Every word is God breathed. It appears you want the Psychology 101 Version of the Bible. The Catholic Church does not teach that. Modernism puts the mind of man above the mind of God.

Ed, this sounds like a worthy topic for you to propose for the Catholic Biblical Association of America’s 2010 annual conference http://cba.cua.edu/. You could get some valuable feedback from Catholic scripture scholars.

StAnastasia

 

[mpartyka]

It was a test for Abraham, but it wasn’t a test for God because He knew how it would turn out. OK, I get that deal. But suppose that Abraham was just testing God to find out how far He would let this go on? Maybe Abraham would not have murdered his son. Maybe at the last second Abraham would have just freaked out and told God that he wouldn’t kill his son. We don’t know that unless we believe that God knew that Abraham would have done the deed, or whatever.

I think the assumption is that Abraham had already passed the point of no return in his own mind when God told him to stop – he was going to do it, and only God’s intervention stopped him.

–Mike

 

[mpartyka]

What verse do you find this in? It’s not in my bible.

Hebrews 11:17-18 – By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

–Mike

 

[StAnastasia]

Hebrews 11:17-18 – By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
–Mike

Mike, where is the evidence in Genesis that Abraham believed anything other than that by slaughtering and burning his son he would be permanently killing him? Where is the evidence that Abraham thought nonchalantly that slaughtering Isaac was no big deal, because God would simply raise him up again?

StAnastasia

 

[mpartyka]

Mike, where is the evidence in Genesis that Abraham believed anything other than that by slaughtering and burning his son he would be permanently killing him? Where is the evidence that Abraham thought nonchalantly that slaughtering Isaac was no big deal, because God would simply raise him up again?

Genesis 22:5 – And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the [donkey]; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

Just as it has already been said, Abraham told his servants that he and Isaac would return from the mountain. I think that, combined with Hebrews 11:17-19, should suffice, don’t you?

–Mike

 

[StAnastasia]

Genesis 22:5 – And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the [donkey]; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.Just as it has already been said, Abraham told his servants that he and Isaac would return from the mountain. I think that, combined with Hebrews 11:17-19, should suffice, don’t you?

–Mike

So was Abraham lying to his servants, or was he intending to disobey God and not go through with the slaughter, presuming he and Isaac would come back together? Hebrews 11 is irrelevant, as it was fourteen hundred years in the future.

 

[mpartyka]

So was Abraham lying to his servants, or was he intending to disobey God and not go through with the slaughter, presuming he and Isaac would come back together? Hebrews 11 is irrelevant, as it was fourteen hundred years in the future.

Hebrews 11 provides an interpretation of Genesis 22 which explains how Abraham’s statement to his servants could be both truthful and wholly consistent with his intention to carry out God’s instructions. The question at hand, then, is not whether this interpretation was written down for us near the time of the actual events, but whether this interpretation is consistent with the scriptural account – and it is, obviously. So, unless you can come up with some passage of scripture which explicitly says that Abraham either lied to his servants or did not intend to carry out God’s instructions, I see no reason not to accept the interpretation provided by Hebrews 11 which preserves Abraham’s integrity in thought, word, and deed.

I’m more concerned with this question of yours:

Where is the evidence that Abraham thought nonchalantly that slaughtering Isaac was no big deal, because God would simply raise him up again?

From where do you get the notion that Abraham’s faith in God’s ability to resurrect Isaac would make his sacrificing Isaac “no big deal” or even something he could contemplate “nonchalantly”?

–Mike

 

[buffalo]

The god of the Old Testament killed his children. Would you do that?

If I was able to create I have the right to do what I wish.

 

[mpartyka]

If I was able to create I have the right to do what I wish.

Well, let’s not be cavalier about it. Humans do have a limited ability to create via procreation, but they don’t have full rights over their children (e.g., a human has no right to kill his own child, steal from his child, covet his child’s possessions, etc.).

What we need to keep in mind here is that according to Genesis, God created humanity originally free from death, but as Creator of humanity God was also capable of imposing death upon humanity should they fall into sin, which they did. Now, once we recognize that God has the right to tell humans, “You will die,” and since God has already established after the Fall that all humans will die, we then need to recognize that God also has the right to tell humans when they will die.

So, yes, the God of the Old Testament killed some of His children, but in a sense He had already established that every child born would die eventually, and all that had yet to be determined (from our perspective) was when. God has chosen to reserve the decision of when to Himself (when he doesn’t delegate it to humans via the Law or by explicit command), which is why humans don’t have the right to kill other humans, including their own children, indiscriminately.

–Mike

 

[StAnastasia]

So, unless you can come up with some passage of scripture which explicitly says that Abraham either lied to his servants or did not intend to carry out God’s instructions, I see no reason not to accept the interpretation provided by Hebrews 11 which preserves Abraham’s integrity in thought, word, and deed.–Mike

There is no evidence from the Genesis story indicating that Abraham had any other belief than that after he had slit Isaac’s throat and burned his body, Isaac would be dead and gone.

 

[StAnastasia]

If I was able to create I have the right to do what I wish.

Wow – a real role model for human fathers!

 

[buffalo]

Wow – a real role model for human fathers!

Read carefully - word by word - If I was able to create I have the right to do what I wish.

So do you deny God the right to do as He wishes with His creation? By what authority? Perhaps you should take your thesis directly to God and demand He be a better role model.

You also object to Him sending His only Son to die for all our sins?

 

[StAnastasia]

So do you deny God the right to do as He wishes with His creation? By what authority? Perhaps you should take your thesis directly to God and demand He be a better role model.

“Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect,” but do as he says, not as he does, ordering the slaughter of many of his children.

 

[mpartyka]

“Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect,” but do as he says, not as he does, ordering the slaughter of many of his children.

The idea is, “Be perfect in showing love to everyone.” God shows love to all people, not just those who are for Him. Christians should behave in the same fashion.

You seem to have difficulty with God’s having killed (or having ordered His followers to kill) certain of His followers, but you’re not placing these orders in context. The nation of Israel was not only a people but also an army, and in an army, discipline needs to be maintained. Sometimes the few are sacrificed for the good of the many – sometimes it’s even the reverse. What matters is the safety and security of the army, i.e., of the people, as a whole, not the safety and security of each individual member. If the continued life of the individual is detrimental to the continued life of the whole, the commander of the army (i.e., God) has authority to take the life of the individual for the good of the whole – and I would argue that it is still loving to do this, because God isn’t playing favorites and keeping one child alive to the detriment of all His other children who are of equal value before Him.

–Mike

 

[StAnastasia]

You seem to have difficulty with God’s having killed (or having ordered His followers to kill) certain of His followers, but you’re not placing these orders in context.

Ah, yes – the context. Let’s see – ordering the slaughter of thousands of innocent women and children – is that part of the divine role model to which I should point my students and my own children?

But perhaps we should get back to evolution, as this is somewhat off topic.

StAnastasia

 

[mpartyka]

Ah, yes – the context. Let’s see – ordering the slaughter of thousands of innocent women and children – is that part of the divine role model to which I should point my students and my own children? But perhaps we should get back to evolution, as this is somewhat off topic.

One last question: If you don’t like the God of the Old Testament, then why do you worship Him? After all, He and the God of the New Testament are one and the same God, according to Jesus and all the Apostles – and it’s important, I think, to note that they never had a problem equating the God of the Old Testament with the God of the New Testament, nor did they ever make excuses for the incidents in the Old Testament that seem to disturb you, so if they didn’t have a problem with accepting the God of the Old Testament as their own God and Father, why do you?

–Mike

 

[reggieM]

One last question: If you don’t like the God of the Old Testament, then why do you worship Him? After all, He and the God of the New Testament are one and the same God, according to Jesus and all the Apostles – and it’s important, I think, to note that they never had a problem equating the God of the Old Testament with the God of the New Testament, nor did they ever make excuses for the incidents in the Old Testament that seem to disturb you, so if they didn’t have a problem with accepting the God of the Old Testament as their own God and Father, why do you?

–Mike

There are several possible answers to this …

1. He doesn’t worship God at all since, in order to be a good role model, he doesn’t want his kids to worship him – therefore God shouldn’t and doesn’t want anyone to worship Him either.
2. The God of the Old Testament was a fabrication by ignorant Hebrews. We’re smarter now, so we don’t need to pay any attention to the Old Testament – except where we can interpret it to be consistent with the values of secular liberalism.
3. As above, the teachings of secular liberalism guide us to be able to respect any God, even that of the Old Testament because that is what diversity of thought requires. So, while he rejects the image portrayed of the Old Testament God, he respects people who are ignorant enough to believe in him.
4. Jesus was trying to teach us to reject the Old Testament God in favor of the New Testament God. We grew up and matured and thus outgrew the Old Testament.
5. By living his life, he worships God. There’s really no need for the Bible in this matter. But the Bible provides some interesting historical insights and storytelling that can be helpful when raising children. But it’s best to filter out anything that doesn’t align with liberal-humanism because that might trouble the children.

 

[buffalo]

“Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect,” but do as he says, not as he does, ordering the slaughter of many of his children.

Are you certain that the God did not take care of the souls of His children? Why are you so hung up on the material body instead of the immaterial soul?