Conference on Evolution

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.Evolution is only claimed to be responsible for the development of the human mind.
I’m interested in this “claim”. Who, precisely, are you referring to as the source of this claim? Evolutionary scientists, for example? The scientific literature? You seem to disagree with this notion. What are your arguments against the idea that evolution is responsible for the development of the human mind?
 
Are they the products of nature?
They are creations of God working through nature. All things are created by the Word of God: “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
 
They are creations of God working through nature. All things are created by the Word of God: “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
The question was whether they are products of nature or not. I can see why you’re having a problem with this. They are “through nature”, supposedly, according to your ambiguous phrase answer above (which is obviously dodging the issue).

So, we have things that emerged through nature, but supposedly, science and evolution can “say nothing about them”.

Why are these aspects of nature (mind, consciousness, spiritual awareness, morality) not the proper subject of science? How did these aspects of nature emerge if not by evolutionary processes? Where in the scientific literature does it state that science can have nothing to say about these aspects of nature?

You then quote Scripture to explain how these products of natural laws came into being.
 
What part of the universe, that the Buddah gained insight from to discover morality, is not the subject of science?
The spiritual part. Moral law operates in a spiritual realm connecting events in the material realm that have no material connection.
Where is this non-natural part of the universe located and how did it get there?
Your question is not relevant. All that I need to know is that moral law works and how it operates. To quote the Buddha on irrelevant questions:[The Buddha said:]'It is as if, Malunkyaputta, a man is shot with an arrow thickly smeared with poison, … and the wounded man were to say “I will not have the arrow taken out until I know the caste of the man who shot it, … his tribe … his clan … his village … his height etc.” [many questions omitted here] That man would die Malunkyaputta, before he learned all that he wanted to know.

'In exactly the same way, Malunkyaputta, any one who says “I will not lead the religious life under the Blessed One until the Blessed One explains to me whether the universe is eternal, whether the universe is not eternal, whether the universe is finite, whether the universe is infinite etc.” [many questions omitted here] That person would die Malunkyaputta, before I had ever explained all this to that person.

‘The religious life, Malunkyaputta, does not depend on the dogma that the universe is eternal, nor does it depend on the dogma that the universe is not eternal etc. [many dogmas omitted here] Whatever dogma obtains there is still birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair, of which I declare the extinction in the present life.’

Cula-Malunkyovada sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 63
I do not need to know every detail of who made my computer and the factory in which they made it in order to be able to operate it. If I tried to find out all those details then I would have less time to actually use the computer, which is the point of having one.

Buddhism is not something to believe, it is something to do. As long as I know how to operate correctly both in the world and with my computer then the details of how they originated are not particularly relevant. They are the equivalent of discussing how many angels can fit on a pinhead.
What influence have your gods and angels had on material nature, if any? Where do they exist and how do they communicate their existence to human beings? Do they have any role in the development of moral laws?
In most Buddhist countries the local gods/spirits are prayed to for small material things - winning the lottery, recovering from disease, the sex of a child etc. From what I can see it does not really matter which god(s) you pray to, the results are pretty much the same everywhere.

The gods have no role in the development of moral laws; they are living beings and are just as subject to moral law as all other living beings. If we live a very good life we may ourselves be reborn as gods in one of the heavens for a long (but not infinite) time.
What effect does gahdhabba have on the evolution of human beings?
None; evolution is concerned with the material body, gandhabbas aren’t. Gandhabbas apply to more than just human beings, every living thing has gandhabbas. You can be reborn as a god, as a human, as an animal or in hell. Every time you are reborn your current gandhabba transfers with you.
You seem to be saying that evolution is only responsible for some parts of a human being. Where in the scientific literature does it state that there are any aspects of human life that are not the result of evolutionary processes?
Nowhere. I do not get that part from the scientific literature, I get it from the Buddhist literature. I am not a philosophical materialist. While doing science I am a methodological materialist, but only for the purposes of science. Away from science I am Buddhist. Science is an excellent source of knowledge within the boundaries it sets for itself. Outside those boundaries I use other sources.

rossum
 
Rossum - we’re going a bit off track here, but I’m curious to know if you believe that the universe has a beginning and an end, or if you believe it is eternal. (Apologies if you’ve already answered it elsewhere).
 
I’m interested in this “claim”. Who, precisely, are you referring to as the source of this claim? Evolutionary scientists, for example? The scientific literature? You seem to disagree with this notion. What are your arguments against the idea that evolution is responsible for the development of the human mind?
I was putting the argument of materialists, not my own arguments. The human mind is seen as an epiphenomenon of the large human brain. The development of that large brain (and hence of the human mind) is seen as the result of evolution. The daily operation of the human brain is seen as not directly down to evolution but to chemistry and electricity.

The development of the human mind is not relevant since in the long course of many lifetimes ‘I’ have used many minds, not all of them human. According to some texts a human rebirth is very rare:"…it is extremely difficult to obtain
this precious human life:
Just as it is rare for a turtle to insert its neck
into a yoke adrift on a vast ocean."

Shantideva, Bodhicaryavatara 4:20
Buddhism sees much less difference between humans and other living things than does Christianity and hence is less focused on the uniqueness of humans.

rossum
 
Why are these aspects of nature (mind, consciousness, spiritual awareness, morality) not the proper subject of science? How did these aspects of nature emerge if not by evolutionary processes? Where in the scientific literature does it state that science can have nothing to say about these aspects of nature?
(1) They are the proper subject of science.

(2) They did emerge through evolutionary processes.

(2) Nowhere that I can find.
 
The things we are discussing relate directly to Imago Dei. It’s hard for me to concieve that the image and likeness of God could develop over time, or through natural (material only) means.
Why is it hard to conceive of the Imago Dei developing over time?
 
Of what does the *Imago Dei *consist, then? That is, what of God does the image reflect?
Imago Dei consists of non-material things.

In order to evolve, you need parts. Parts to start with, then parts to re-arrange (or to assemble “randomly”). What parts are there that reassemble themselves randomly via evolution to create Imago Dei?

Can something have only 20% Imago Dei? 50%? 95%?

It seems to me that you either have it, or you don’t. It’s there, or it’s not. It’s not something that you have most of, just waiting for that last mutation.

IMHO.
 
What sorts of non-material things?
Mind, consciousness, morality, spiritual awareness …
Your words.

I’ll add “immortal soul”, love, beauty & justice to the list above. There are probably more but that’s what comes to mind right now.

Got to go till tomorrow…
 
Mind, consciousness, morality, spiritual awareness …
Your words. I’ll add “immortal soul”, love, beauty & justice to the list above. There are probably more but that’s what comes to mind right now. Got to go till tomorrow…
OK, ricmat, but I’m not convinced that mind, consciousness, morality, and spiritual awareness are entirely independent of body.
 
Nowhere. I do not get that part from the scientific literature, I get it from the Buddhist literature. I am not a philosophical materialist. While doing science I am a methodological materialist, but only for the purposes of science. Away from science I am Buddhist. Science is an excellent source of knowledge within the boundaries it sets for itself. Outside those boundaries I use other sources.
You posit gods, angels, karma, mind and a spiritual realm – none of which have any influence at all on nature or the material body or evolution. You say that people of your religion pray to these gods for intervention in their lives – healings and such things. But you claim also that the gods have no intervention in nature (or can have none?).
You can be reborn as a god, as a human, as an animal or in hell. Every time you are reborn your current gandhabba transfers with you.
Your current gandhabba would certainly have an influence on where or as what you are reborn. How can this have zero effect on living populations and thus evolutionary processes?
 
(1) They are the proper subject of science.
You previously agreed with the statement:

“Evolution says nothing at all about a human soul; there are no fossils of souls and there is no evidence of what might code for a soul in our DNA.”

You now declare that the spiritual nature of man is the proper subject of science, since it emerged from nature.
(2) They did emerge through evolutionary processes.
So you do agree with metaphysical naturalism that morality emerged from nature and evolutionary processes?
 
So you do agree with metaphysical naturalism that morality emerged from nature and evolutionary processes?
I do not believe that she agrees with your description. However, I do believe that morality can be derived from natural, evolutionary processes. In other words, morality isn’t dependent on a belief in the supernatural. Humans can decide to do what is moral based on natural motives.
 
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