Conference on Evolution

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Mike and Alec, the irony is that all this long-winded discussion about basic biology is taking place on a thread concerned with last March’s conference on evolution in Rome, a conference at which all this basic biology was presupposed by the Catholic theologians, philosophers and scientists in attendance!

StAnastasia
I wonder. In that conference where they presupposed all this biology…Did anyone come up with scientifically verified mutations that show evidence of one species evolving into another?

St. A, do you have the list of the names of those “Catholic theologians, philosophers and scientists” that you can share with me?

Annie
 
I wonder. In that conference where they presupposed all this biology…Did anyone come up with scientifically verified mutations that show evidence of one species evolving into another?
Again, you’re asking the wrong question. The right question is, “Are there any scientifically verified mutations that show clear evidence of comment descent between two species thought by creationists to be entirely distinct and unrelated?” The answer to that question is, “Yes,” and the evidence supporting that answer is ably presented in Relics of Eden.

–Mike
 
Again, you’re asking the wrong question. The right question is, “Are there any scientifically verified mutations that show clear evidence of comment descent between two species thought by creationists to be entirely distinct and unrelated?” The answer to that question is, “Yes,” and the evidence supporting that answer is ably presented in Relics of Eden.

–Mike
I will leave a better reply to your post to a scientist but I couldn’t help but ask. I have arms, monkeys have arms. Could that be because we have a common Creator rather than a common ancestor?

I’m still waiting for the list of names from St. A. I’m leaving for a few hours, I’ll check back then, Lord willing.

Annie
 
Sigh. You really have got out of touch with biology, haven’t you? It might be better if you were either to stick to politics, or, if you really want to comment on biology, take a refresher course.

To say that frogs and birds (and lobe finned fishes), being in a sister group (Sarcopterygians) to ray-finned fishes are molecularly equidistant from them, is not to say that all Sarcopterygians are molecularly identical, nor does it mean that they are all molecularly equidistant from one another. So, for example, frogs and birds are more closely related molecularly to one another than either is to lobe finned fishes, birds and reptiles are more closely related molecularly to one another than either is amphibians and so on; all of which yields the phylogeny that you seek. But this is all very elementary stuff that you really ought to know.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Where on earth did you get the idea that I believe equidistant from cartilageous fishes means identical or equidistant from each other? Of course they have different distances depending on their systematics (Linné). To prove phylogeny you would have to show that the molecular distance from cartilageous fish to bony fish is say 1 to amphibians 2 to reptiles 3 to birds 4 etc.; from bony fish to amphibians 1, to reptiles 2, to birds 3; from amphibians to reptiles 1, to birds 2; from reptiles to birds 1 or some such similarily growingr values. A sequence means growing distances. If all are equidistant you have no sequence. Maciej
 
I wonder. In that conference where they presupposed all this biology…Did anyone come up with scientifically verified mutations that show evidence of one species evolving into another? St. A, do you have the list of the names of those “Catholic theologians, philosophers and scientists” that you can share with me?Annie
(1) Yes

(2) 209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:b8h3Wnyz93IJ:www.unigre.it/eventi/conferenza_evoluzione/documenti/090303_Brochure_Conferenza_evoluzione_en.pdf+participants+%22Gregorian+university%22+evolution&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
 
Speaking of which, have they published any documents from that yet? I read all the abstracts that had been published as of last month.–Mike
They asked for the manuscripts by the end of March. However long it takes to edit and publish them – autumn, perhaps. Not that I expect the book – or anything at all, for that matter – would convince the likes of Annie that the world’s biologists know what they are talking about.

StAnastasia
 
That, I would argue, is what Relics of Eden does. By examining duplications which have occurred in human, chimp, and other primate DNA over time, a sequence of species divergences can be established to explain the commonalities and differences of duplications shown in the present primate genome set. The sequencing evidence also serves to disprove the hypothesis of separate instances of special creation due to the infinitessimal probability that the same duplications could wind up in the same places in two entirely distinct genomes.

–Mike
This is special pleading for science. Fortunately, God can do things God can do. And science is not God.

Fortunately, it is being made more and more clear here that science is not the issue but getting rid of Church teaching as given by Revelation. I hope my fellow Catholics realize this.

Peace,
Ed
 
I will leave a better reply to your post to a scientist but I couldn’t help but ask. I have arms, monkeys have arms. Could that be because we have a common Creator rather than a common ancestor?

I’m still waiting for the list of names from St. A. I’m leaving for a few hours, I’ll check back then, Lord willing.

Annie
You are right. A similar body means each will have similar assembly instructions in the DNA.

Peace,
Ed
 
I have arms, monkeys have arms. Could that be because we have a common Creator rather than a common ancestor?
You need to take what I’m saying down to the DNA level. DNA is like a manuscript that gets copied over and over again, and then the copies get copied over and over again, etc., etc. If a mutation occurs in a copy, then every copy of that copy will contain the mutation. The question then becomes, how long does it take for you, after seeing the same sets of mutations occurring in species that you assumed were totally unrelated, to finally break down and admit, “Okay, all these sets of mutations simply cannot have happened twice in two entirely unrelated species. These mutations must have occurred in a common ancestor and then were passed down to these two descendent species.”

–Mike
 
You need to take what I’m saying down to the DNA level. DNA is like a manuscript that gets copied over and over again, and then the copies get copied over and over again, etc., etc. If a mutation occurs in a copy, then every copy of that copy will contain the mutation. The question then becomes, how long does it take for you, after seeing the same sets of mutations occurring in species that you assumed were totally unrelated, to finally break down and admit, “Okay, all these sets of mutations simply cannot have happened twice in two entirely unrelated species. These mutations must have occurred in a common ancestor and then were passed down to these two descendent species.”

–Mike
Well Mike… Its not that I don’t see your point its that I think that there could be other explanations. I’m not a scientist so the alternative explanation cannot come from me but I’d like to suggest one just from my imagination. I think that what needs to be determined is what caused the identical mutations. I look around me. I see people who are descended from different countries even different continents. I have never asked my next door neighbor what his ancestral heritage is but it is apparent that it is not the same as mine. My recent ancestors emigrated from Erin’s Isle, I’m a bettin’ my neighbor’s hailed from Africa. The mutations in my family were most probably caused by the fact that “my people” did not need protection from the sun as much as my neighbor’s ancestors. Now, I have no idea why the mutations that you mentioned happened but it seems to me that both species needed the same mutation. This area of science fascinates me I wish I knew more about it.

So, there you have it. That’s all that my imagination can come up with just now but I do know that I spent much time discussing this topic with some pro and anti evolution folks. Never ever did a pro evolution scientist have any information that an anti evolution scientist could not counter. So, unless and until there is proof that there is incontrovertible evidence that one species evolved into another I will remain unconvinced. I’ll let you know if my daughter-in-law gives birth to a child who can fly.

God bless and may he lead you home.
Annie
 
Do you have the means of posting one on the internet as sort of a “teaser”?
Annie39, regrettably no; the PowerPoint presentations reside (I presume) in the laptops of the individual presenters. However, often scientists and theologians will present things they’ve already made public on their personal or departmental web pages. So, if you google a scholar from the Gregorian conference speakers list, you should find the home pages of most of them, and some might very well have posted the images from their current research that they used in their Rome lectures.

StAnastasia
 
Well Mike… Its not that I don’t see your point its that I think that there could be other explanations. I’m not a scientist so the alternative explanation cannot come from me but I’d like to suggest one just from my imagination. I think that what needs to be determined is what caused the identical mutations. I look around me. I see people who are descended from different countries even different continents. I have never asked my next door neighbor what his ancestral heritage is but it is apparent that it is not the same as mine. My recent ancestors emigrated from Erin’s Isle, I’m a bettin’ my neighbor’s hailed from Africa. The mutations in my family were most probably caused by the fact that “my people” did not need protection from the sun as much as my neighbor’s ancestors. Now, I have no idea why the mutations that you mentioned happened but it seems to me that both species needed the same mutation.
Your “scientist” mentor thinks that there is no such thing as a positive mutation so, if you were to believe him, that blows your hypothesis out of the water.

What you describe is a process known as convergent evolution (independent mutations which are fixed through positive selection). But in fact many of the common markers cannot have arisen that way since they are non-functional, and insertionally syntenic (ie sequences which are inserted into the genome in the same place in two different species). Markers such as processed pseudogenes, retrotransposons such as LINEs and SINEs, and endogenous retroviruses cannot have arisen separately in the same place in the genomes of multiple species by convergent evolution and are overwhelming evidence for common ancestry.
This area of science fascinates me I wish I knew more about it.
That’s not difficult to fix if you are willing to spend the time to learn.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Where on earth did you get the idea that I believe equidistant from cartilageous fishes means identical or equidistant from each other? Of course they have different distances depending on their systematics (Linné). To prove phylogeny you would have to show that the molecular distance from cartilageous fish to bony fish is say 1 to amphibians 2 to reptiles 3 to birds 4 etc.; from bony fish to amphibians 1, to reptiles 2, to birds 3; from amphibians to reptiles 1, to birds 2; from reptiles to birds 1 or some such similarily growingr values. A sequence means growing distances. If all are equidistant you have no sequence.
Oh dear, you really do need a refresher. You are quite wrong. A phylogeny is not a sequence but a tree and when we consider extant species we use molecular distance (and other markers as mpartyka has pointed out) to determine the nodes of the tree. If we were to find what you suggest (increasing molecular distance from cartilaginous fish to bony fish to amphibians to reptiles to birds), then that would be evidence *against *the common ancestry of the monophyletic groups. You seem to think that molecular evolution stops in a lineage as soon as some other lineage diverges from it. You are making a surprisingly elementary mistake.

Since you are having so much trouble with the concept let me spell it out simply for you.
  1. Since bony fish and all terrestrial tetrapods (Osteichthyes) are more closely molecularly related to each than any is to cartilaginous fish (Condrichthyes), then the first node in our phylogeny is the divergence of Condrichthyes from Osteichthyes. (Condricthyes are then the outgroup for the rest of the phylogeny)
  2. Since lobe finned fish and terrestrial vertebrates (Sarcoptygerii) are more closely related molecularly to each other than any is to ray-finned fishes (Actinopterygii), then the next node on our tree is the divergence of lobe-finned fishes from ray finned fishes.
  3. Since terrestrial vertebrates (Tetrapoda) are more closely related to each other than any is to lobe-finned fishes then the next node is the divergence of tetrapods from lobe finned fishes.
  4. Since amniota (reptiles, birds, mammals, crocodilians etc) are more closely related to each other than any is to amphibians, then the next node is the divergence of amniota from amphibia
  5. Since diapsids are more closely related to each other than any is to synapsids then the next node is the divergence of diapsid from synapsid amniotes
  6. Since crocodiles and birds (Archosauromorpha) are more closely related than either is to lizards and snakes (Lepidosuaromorpha) then the next node is the divergence of these two groups
  7. Since all birds are more closely related than any is to crocodiles then the next node is the divergence of crocodiloforms and birds; and so on
Would you like me to suggest a text book or two so that you can learn about phylogenetics?

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
. I’ll let you know if my daughter-in-law gives birth to a child who can fly.
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Annie, the faith of the evolutionist is very, very, strong. They believe animals that didn’t fly gave birth to birds, some believe it took millions of years others believe in “The hopeful monster” theory, but it’s all faith because there is no evidence.
 
You are confusing cladistic and phylogenetic systematics. The “tree” you speak of with nodes that refer to common traits (whether morphological or molecular is besides the point here) is a tool of cladistic taxonomy. Evolution requires the “tree” to be phylogenetic. The nodes have to be common ancestors and not just theoretical constructs of a set of characteristics. Who are the common ancestors? If a fish is equidistant from a frog and from an ape your tree looses common ancestors, it looses phylogeny. Maciej
 
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Annie, the faith of the evolutionist is very, very, strong. They believe animals that didn’t fly gave birth to birds, some believe it took millions of years others believe in “The hopeful monster” theory, but it’s all faith because there is no evidence.
Redneck, my university students are not allowed to criticize another’s position until they can articulate it clearly and responsibly. You are fundamentally ignorant of what evolutionary explanations involve, so you have no right to criticize it.

StAnastasia
 
…I think that there could be other explanations…I think that what needs to be determined is what caused the identical mutations…Now, I have no idea why the mutations that you mentioned happened but it seems to me that both species needed the same mutation.
Here’s the problem with that, though. Some of the mutations that happened in both species broke the genes that mutated. But not only were these genes broken, they were also broken in the same way.

For example, let’s say that “ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ” is the DNA code for a gene, and the removal of any 3 letters in a row from this gene will render the gene non-functional. Now, if I were to tell you that this gene was broken in both humans and chimps, that doesn’t really say much – you can still easily argue common design (although why God would choose to include a broken gene in these two genomes as part of His “design” is up for debate). But what if I were to tell you that this gene was broken in both humans and chimps in the same way – e.g., the letters “HIJ” are missing from the gene in both humans and chimps?

Even worse, there is a real-life example demonstrating not only a gene duplication that happened in both the human and chimp genomes, but a copying error that occurred during the duplication process in both genomes. Literally, a particular gene was retrotranscribed – introns removed, trailing-A tail attached – and then was “clipped” during the reinsertion process so that the end of the retrotranscribed copy was cut off near the tail end. So, if we were taking all the separate elements of this evidence as a stepladder of probabilities, we’d wind up with something like this:
  1. Two distinct genomes have a copy of the same gene – no big deal.
  2. The copies are both retrotranscriptions – still no big deal.
  3. These retrotranscribed copies were inserted into the same location in each genome – okay, that’s kind of a big deal because those copies could have wound up anywhere, even on a different chromosome.
  4. These retrotranscribed copies both experienced the same “clipping” error during reinsertion – okay, hold up…this is the kind of thing that just doesn’t happen twice!
And that’s just the story of this one copy of that particular gene. There are eleven more copies of this gene we haven’t even covered. And this is only one “family” of genes that we’re discussing. There are hundreds, if not thousands, more. So, you have to look at the circumstances surrounding each of these mutations found in both human and chimp genomes, add up all of the respective probabilities of all these mutations’ having happened randomly in two entirely separate genomes, and then ask yourself which is the more reasonable explanation: Did all these common mutations happen twice (i.e., once in each species), or are the evolutionists right in saying that all these mutations happened once in a common ancestor species and were later passed down to humans and chimps?
Never ever did a pro-evolution scientist have any information that an anti-evolution scientist could not counter.
That’s because you haven’t read Relics of Eden yet.

–Mike
 
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