Conference on Evolution

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Adam and Eve were our first parents. Through one man, sin entered the world. That’s in the Bible.
Then, if polygenism is true, either the Bible is wrong, or all this time the Bible has been explaining things symbolically while we’ve been interpreting it literally. The document you cited has no difficulty interpreting “Adam and Eve” as a symbol of the original human community.

–Mike
 
Then, if polygenism is true, either the Bible is wrong, or all this time the Bible has been explaining things symbolically while we’ve been interpreting it literally. The document you cited has no difficulty interpreting “Adam and Eve” as a symbol of the original human community.

–Mike
A careful reading of this document should clarify things for you:

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html

Part 37 is especially relevant.

Peace,
Ed
 
On the contrary, direct reference is made to it in the other document. In any case, Adam and Eve are cases of special creation. The Bible tells us that through one man sin entered the world.

Peace,
Ed
 
A careful reading of this document should clarify things for you:
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html Part 37 is especially relevant.
Peace,Ed
However theologically pious paragraph thirty-seven is (and I don’t doubt but that it is symbolically important), it is no more relevant to the science of cosmic and human origins than is the African myth of Bumba, in which God/Bumba vomited forth creation from his mouth.
 
The Living God can and does fulfill His will. His Word does not return to Him void but completes the purpose for which it was sent out.

Peace,
Ed
 
The Living God can and does fulfill His will. His Word does not return to Him void but completes the purpose for which it was sent out.
About all I can say at this point is, “Genesis 1-11 is very likely mythical. It may not be 100% mythical, but it is definitely not 100% historical.” That’s my official statement. I just can’t accept the view of previous eras which held the Bible to be “truer than the witness of our own souls,” to quote one Church Father. I rather envy them, for it appears that in their case ignorance truly did produce bliss, but I myself cannot pursue ignorance for the sake of acquiring bliss. Who knows? Maybe somebody someday will come up with a better explanation than common descent for the similarities between our DNA and the DNA of chimpanzees – an explanation grounded in scientific data, not religious bias – and I will have to change my mind yet again. But for now, I’ll refrain from joining any religious organization that rejects scientific theories of universal and human origins simply because of what’s present in sacred texts.

The sad thing is, right now in my life I’m probably more in line with Christian beliefs and practice from a purely moral standpoint than I’ve ever been before, yet it is precisely that moral belief that pushes me away from this Church along with all the others: After all the time I’ve spent training myself to tell the truth even if it costs me, I can’t join a Church that would expect me or direct me to do otherwise. My integrity isn’t worth whatever benefits are being offered. I truly find myself asking myself, “What does it profit a man if he should gain ‘eternal life’ but lose his own soul?”

–Mike
 
About all I can say at this point is, “Genesis 1-11 is very likely mythical. It may not be 100% mythical, but it is definitely not 100% historical.” That’s my official statement. I just can’t accept the view of previous eras which held the Bible to be “truer than the witness of our own souls,” to quote one Church Father. I rather envy them, for it appears that in their case ignorance truly did produce bliss, but I myself cannot pursue ignorance for the sake of acquiring bliss. Who knows? Maybe somebody someday will come up with a better explanation than common descent for the similarities between our DNA and the DNA of chimpanzees – an explanation grounded in scientific data, not religious bias – and I will have to change my mind yet again. But for now, I’ll refrain from joining any religious organization that rejects scientific theories of universal and human origins simply because of what’s present in sacred texts.

The sad thing is, right now in my life I’m probably more in line with Christian beliefs and practice from a purely moral standpoint than I’ve ever been before, yet it is precisely that moral belief that pushes me away from this Church along with all the others: After all the time I’ve spent training myself to tell the truth even if it costs me, I can’t join a Church that would expect me or direct me to do otherwise. My integrity isn’t worth whatever benefits are being offered. I truly find myself asking myself, “What does it profit a man if he should gain ‘eternal life’ but lose his own soul?”

–Mike
Your post smacks of scientism.

You join the Catholic Church to get to heaven.
 
After all the time I’ve spent training myself to tell the truth even if it costs me, I can’t join a Church that would expect me or direct me to do otherwise. My integrity isn’t worth whatever benefits are being offered. I truly find myself asking myself, “What does it profit a man if he should gain ‘eternal life’ but lose his own soul?” --Mike
Mike, I admire your honesty, but perhaps you’re being too scrupulous. Loads of Catholics accept evolution. My priest scientist friends have dedicated their lives to the church, and yet they are not conscience-stricken that they cannot read “Adam” and “Eve” as historical individuals.
 
About all I can say at this point is, “Genesis 1-11 is very likely mythical. It may not be 100% mythical, but it is definitely not 100% historical.” That’s my official statement. I just can’t accept the view of previous eras which held the Bible to be “truer than the witness of our own souls,” to quote one Church Father. I rather envy them, for it appears that in their case ignorance truly did produce bliss, but I myself cannot pursue ignorance for the sake of acquiring bliss. Who knows? Maybe somebody someday will come up with a better explanation than common descent for the similarities between our DNA and the DNA of chimpanzees – an explanation grounded in scientific data, not religious bias – and I will have to change my mind yet again. But for now, I’ll refrain from joining any religious organization that rejects scientific theories of universal and human origins simply because of what’s present in sacred texts.

The sad thing is, right now in my life I’m probably more in line with Christian beliefs and practice from a purely moral standpoint than I’ve ever been before, yet it is precisely that moral belief that pushes me away from this Church along with all the others: After all the time I’ve spent training myself to tell the truth even if it costs me, I can’t join a Church that would expect me or direct me to do otherwise. My integrity isn’t worth whatever benefits are being offered. I truly find myself asking myself, “What does it profit a man if he should gain ‘eternal life’ but lose his own soul?”

–Mike
Mike, it’s taken me a long time to come to a particular realization that I’d like to share with you.

I’ll summarize it as:

“It’s not about knowledge, it’s about obedience.”

Knowledge is something which only God possesses in it’s fullness. With God, it’s Truth. With us, there’s always some guessing, despite what the science worshipers say. Our humility should put us in a position where realize that we can not presume to know as much as God about ANYTHING. We all have a desire to figure things out, and make sense of them in our own minds. That’s OK. But we must remain humble and realize that we might not actually have it right.

Unfortunately, the science worshipers tell us just the opposite. Science has it all figured out (or will soon). This leads to Pride (just look at some of the posters here - or some that have been recently banned). Always talking about their PhDs and publications, and eating dinner with famous folks and rubbing elbows with other famous folks. They must be right. They have to be, their whole world is invested in it.

It’s been said that the prayers of young children are the most powerful (sorry, can’t remember the reference). Why would that be true? Children are the least educated amongst us. The ones with the least knowledge.

They’re also the ones with the least pride. And they (generally) do what they’re told even if they don’t understand what they’re doing. I just realized this earlier today at a children’s mass at our parish. But their prayers are powerful, because they OBEY.

If you love me, follow my commandments. So said Jesus. The 4th commandment requires us to follow the teachings of the Church (which he left to guide us). Some don’t like those teachings, and want to have them replaced with teachings which suit their tastes better. Not the children.

We must become like children to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Even if we don’t understand the reasons (although we might possibly figure them out someday), we need to obey.

Adam and Eve didn’t. Jesus did. We should too.

Yes, perhaps ignorance is bliss. Knowledge by itself is not bad, but we must not let it corrupt our souls and be the instrument of our own spiritual destruction. Many consciences have been killed by pride.

IMHO.
 
So if conservative Alabaman’s go to Ruby Ridge, Idaho, when Alabama starts to look too liberal, where do blind guides who think the Church is too conservative go? And no, I’m not thinking of conferences in Rome.
Good 1.
 
Mike, I admire your honesty, but perhaps you’re being too scrupulous. Loads of Catholics accept evolution. My priest scientist friends have dedicated their lives to the church, and yet they are not conscience-stricken that they cannot read “Adam” and “Eve” as historical individuals.
My problem isn’t so much with whether Catholicism and evolution are reconcilable. Any two conflicting ideas can be reconicled if you have sufficient motivation. The doctrine of the Trinity is paradoxical as all-get-out, but if you accept its individual claims and recognize that Christians have always held these truths in spite of the apparent contradictions, then it’s easy to throw up one’s hands and say, “It’s a mystery, but that’s okay by me.” Heck, I’ve done that for years with the doctrine of the Trinity, the free-will/predestination paradox, etc., etc., and never had a problem.

When you start dealing with “Adam and Eve” as being symbolic of the original human community, though – indeed, when you start dealing with heliocentricity, Big Bang theory, psychiatry, evolution, and all the other scientific advances that have caused us to look back at scripture somewhat askance – you have to recognize that this isn’t so much a matter of accepting a contradiction that has been held and reverenced from the beginning as it is a genuine conflict of doctrine with previously unknown evidence. Prior to 200 years ago, no Christian would have dreamed of disputing the literal existence of Adam and Eve as humankind’s first (and only) parents. Now that is changing. Likewise, no one prior to 200 years ago was likely to question whether people or even animals died prior to the Fall. Now one has to wonder if there ever truly was a Fall!

No one with a good head on his/her shoulders can deny that the Bible contains a LOT of truth. But that’s not the position that was preached from the pulpit for the first 1800 years of Christianity. The position of old was, “The Bible IS truth. The Bible was written by God, who cannot lie.” I can say, “Well, so much for that position!” but the moment I do I feel as though I’ve detached myself from all who have come before and staked their lives upon the Bible as holding the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about who we are, where we came from, and where we’re going. I’m not one of them. I don’t want to join the Church today just so I can pretend to be one of them. And I think, in reality, that’s what I’ve been doing for some time, now. I can recall at least one occasion from my Protestant years of looking into the eyes of a member of the church I was attending and realizing, “He really believes this. He doesn’t have to justify it to himself with any convoluted logic of how sin and grace and Christ all interrelate with one another to form a plan of salvation. He just buys into it hook, line, and sinker – and I’m not like him!

That’s what hurts the most in reading the Fathers…the knowledge that I’m not like them…and never will be, it looks like, because they’ll never know what we now know, and they’ll never see the things we’ve seen. They are fixed in their bliss, while I feel just as fixed in my discomfort, because I can’t be like them – I’m tempted to continue, “…not without sacrificing my integrity,” but that would imply that I could ever make such a sacrifice for the sake of being “one of the fold,” and I know that’s just not true. If I have to stand apart till I die, then I’ll stand apart – not because I want to, but because I have to. (Although I do wonder if someday I’ll find myself wanting to, also. Interesting thought…) Maybe the best that I can hope for is that God will say to me, “Dude, no big deal. That whole ‘Church’ thing was only supposed to last for so long, anyway…”

–Mike
 
It’s been said that the prayers of young children are the most powerful (sorry, can’t remember the reference). Why would that be true? Children are the least educated amongst us. The ones with the least knowledge…We must become like children to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Even if we don’t understand the reasons (although we might possibly figure them out someday), we need to obey.
Ricmat, to be consistent and honest with yourself, you should only permit little children to practice neurosurgery, because they are most the innocent and Christlike. But maybe your dismissal of science was only hyperbole after all…
 
Mike, it’s taken me a long time to come to a particular realization that I’d like to share with you.

I’ll summarize it as:

“It’s not about knowledge, it’s about obedience.”

Knowledge is something which only God possesses in it’s fullness. With God, it’s Truth. With us, there’s always some guessing, despite what the science worshipers say. Our humility should put us in a position where realize that we can not presume to know as much as God about ANYTHING. We all have a desire to figure things out, and make sense of them in our own minds. That’s OK. But we must remain humble and realize that we might not actually have it right.

Unfortunately, the science worshipers tell us just the opposite. Science has it all figured out (or will soon). This leads to Pride (just look at some of the posters here - or some that have been recently banned). Always talking about their PhDs and publications, and eating dinner with famous folks and rubbing elbows with other famous folks. They must be right. They have to be, their whole world is invested in it.

It’s been said that the prayers of young children are the most powerful (sorry, can’t remember the reference). Why would that be true? Children are the least educated amongst us. The ones with the least knowledge.

They’re also the ones with the least pride. And they (generally) do what they’re told even if they don’t understand what they’re doing. I just realized this earlier today at a children’s mass at our parish. But their prayers are powerful, because they OBEY.

If you love me, follow my commandments. So said Jesus. The 4th commandment requires us to follow the teachings of the Church (which he left to guide us). Some don’t like those teachings, and want to have them replaced with teachings which suit their tastes better. Not the children.

We must become like children to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Even if we don’t understand the reasons (although we might possibly figure them out someday), we need to obey.

Adam and Eve didn’t. Jesus did. We should too.

Yes, perhaps ignorance is bliss. Knowledge by itself is not bad, but we must not let it corrupt our souls and be the instrument of our own spiritual destruction. Many consciences have been killed by pride.

IMHO.
I like this post. 👍
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricmat forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
It’s been said that the prayers of young children are the most powerful (sorry, can’t remember the reference). Why would that be true? Children are the least educated amongst us. The ones with the least knowledge…We must become like children to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Even if we don’t understand the reasons (although we might possibly figure them out someday), we need to obey.
Ricmat, to be consistent and honest with yourself, you should only permit little children to practice neurosurgery, because they are most the innocent and Christlike. But maybe your dismissal of science was only hyperbole after all…
Your comment makes no sense and seems totally disconnected from my quote.

I’m not dismissing science in total. I’ve done more with science (I’m an engineer after all) than you can probably imagine. I’m dismissing science as a replacement for God. Does that upset you? What exactly in my quote that you provided above do you actually disagree with?
 
And replacing God with science is the problem. Any human enterprise can become corrupted. Some claim science is self-correcting and that it knows its bounds. Then people who are scientists, like PZ Myers, post an interview where he claims that science is corrosive to religious belief. True science, a science that has boundaries, does not do this. Then you add to the chorus individuals like Sam Harris who likens his fellow scientists to ‘pod people’ for listening to the Pope.

Further, a few Modernists, as clearly defined in Humani Generis (1950), are claiming some new interpretation of the Bible as if God is not God. Their simple assertion boils down to: well God did this miracle but not that one, or maybe this one but not that one. And also defined in Humani Generis is the Church’s rock solid deposit of faith. But the Modernists, content that what they believe is true is the end of it, present what they call evidence, which can never be called proof, by the way, as a fact. I believe that this represents not a search for truth but a desire based on emotion and an urgent search for novelty. In the end, they just jump up and down: look, look, we can tell the Church what to think! And, at the same time, they simply brush aside established Church teaching as if greater minds than they have not considered this or that question.

The problem with Modernism is that it goes through cycles. And what about new, new knowledge ten years from now? Wouldn’t that be more modern? It appears a desire to exalt their own minds and an excitement which they try to generate regarding what they believe to be true is what is motivating them. God is then reduced to being like men, not God. The God who raised the dead and raised Himself from the dead. He clearly stands outside of the natural world as conceived by the Modernist. He commanded the wind to stop and it stopped. If a scientists was standing next to Jesus when any of His miracles occurred, what would he say? What could he find out?

God is not viewed as the being called God. St. Thomas Aquinas observed nature and developed five proofs for God, but this is ignored. In my years of studying science and during my research into the history of technology, I understand that a human being is not his technology. We are basically no different than those who lived 2,000 years ago. The same sins repeated over and over and over again. But some refuse to be in communion with the Living God, it offends them that their minds cannot grasp what God knows. Or that they think they have indeed found out something but do they offer it to the Church or just seek to impose their will? The willfullness of the Modernists and an obsession for ‘change’ linked to some novelty drives them. Indeed, the deposit of faith has been defended from heretics from the beginning.

To those who want to understand, I encourage you, to those whose only purpose is to confuse or undermine, and not listen to the Church, please stop it.

Peace,
Ed
 
Your comment makes no sense and seems totally disconnected from my quote. I’m not dismissing science in total. I’ve done more with science (I’m an engineer after all) than you can probably imagine. I’m dismissing science as a replacement for God. Does that upset you? What exactly in my quote that you provided above do you actually disagree with?
I’m glad you are not dismissing science, although engineering does not always involve science. What you said was: “It’s been said that the prayers of young children are the most powerful (sorry, can’t remember the reference). Why would that be true? Children are the least educated amongst us. The ones with the least knowledge.”

It seems you cheerfully dismiss knowledge as being somehow evil, a spiritual impediment; that children are spiritually purer because they are innocent of knowledge. I hope that’s not what you are saying, because is simply is not true.

StAnastasia
 
There’s more to being Catholic than a Ph.D.:Peace,
Ed
Actually having a Ph.D. has NOTHING to do with being Catholic. It is a blessing, however, to have someone who is a strong witness to his faith in this field. What he discovers (phylogenetics being his specialty) can never contradict dogmas of our (his) faith.
 
You are simply cutting out the parts you like and leaving out the rest.

“An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist…”

The fact is that the anti-theist hopes that ‘it all happened by itself,’ but the Church is saying such a process simply cannot exist.

Peace,
Ed
So, what else is new?

I think that all of us who have an interest in these threads, and are believing Catholics, are on the same page with that quote.

It seems to me, after reading numerous posts of yours on the subject, that you are out to “dis” science because some scientists are admitted atheists.

Faith can never contradict reason. The Truth will always come to the fore.
 
Then people who are scientists, like PZ Myers, post an interview where he claims that science is corrosive to religious belief. True science, a science that has boundaries, does not do this.
I would think that “true” science should have no boundaries when it comes to reporting accurately on the data gathered and on the results of experiments, even if the data gathered and the experimental results lead to conclusions which sharply conflict with what is considered “revelation.” As for science’s “corrosiveness” to religious beliefs, I think the source of this corrosive potential is the fact that a true scientist must come to the table with the understanding that everything he/she believes to be true could be falsified by the next piece of data gathered or the next experiment run. That’s a totally different position from holding up a sacred text and saying, “Nothing can or will ever contradict what is contained within this book.”
I believe that this represents not a search for truth but a desire based on emotion and an urgent search for novelty.
I disagree because it’s sometimes the people who would have most to gain from toeing the line (e.g., sola scriptura evangelicals, hard-core creationists) who have changed their positions based on their exposure to the evidence. For example, Dr. Francis Collins, who was head of the Human Genome Project until recently, started out an atheist believing in evolution. Then he converted to evangelical Christianity, yet his conversion never served to dissuade him from believing in evolution because, as head of the Human Genome Project, he was too close to the data, and the data only served to reaffirm his believe in evolution at every turn. Indeed, just prior to his leaving the Project, he published his book The Language of God which takes a purely neo-Darwinist yet theistic evolutionist stance even while affirming his belief in Christ. For another example, Glenn Morton started his evangelical Christian walk in college and was quickly recruited by the growing young-earth creationist movement, even to the point of writing papers for creationist magazines. However, once he got into the oil-drilling business and started seeing for himself the geological data which contradicted all the young-earth creationist positions, he soon realized that what he’d been taught by the YECs was false, and the earth really was ancient. Later he became convinced of the evolutionary position, too (now that the roadblock of “not enough time for evolution” had been stricken down before his own eyes).

The bottom line is, I have yet to see one person who has turned away from evolution and/or an ancient earth in favor of special creation and/or a young earth whose turning was based purely upon scientific evidence rather than upon religoius conviction. I have yet to find one person even in the Intelligent Design movement whose refusal to accept the mainstream scientific view of evolution is not based at least in part upon religous convictions rather than strictly upon the evidence. (The sole exception to this for a while was Dr. Michael Denton, author of Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, but even he has since recanted his doubts and reaffirmed a belief in evolution.)
…they simply brush aside established Church teaching as if greater minds than they have not considered this or that question.
That’s because these “greater minds than they” couldn’t have considered this or that question – all the evidence wasn’t in yet! I would liken what you see as the Church’s case against evolution to a rape conviction based on circumstantial evidence and eyewitness testimony from the victim – a conviction which would be overturned decades later on the basis of DNA evidence that could not have been tested until now because the technology didn’t exist. Had your “greater minds” been privy to all the information we have today from the genetic record, I do not for a moment believe they would have made the clear pronouncements against evolution (e.g., Humanii Generis) upon which you base your shaky position. They wouldn’t have dared.
St. Thomas Aquinas observed nature and developed five proofs for God, but this is ignored.
St. Thomas Aquinas wasn’t privy to the DNA evidence we now have that clearly favors evolution. If he had, I believe you would have in your hands the collected writings of a much more evolution-friendly St. Thomas Aquinas.
…it offends them that their minds cannot grasp what God knows. Or that they think they have indeed found out something but do they offer it to the Church…?
What offends us is God’s having apparently told us things we very well do know are not true. And what difference would it make to offer up our discoveries to the Church? The Church cannot change the truth to suit itself. The moment it were to try – some would say it has already tried on several occasions – it becomes not the Church of the First Century but the Party of George Orwell’s 1984:
“You are here because you have failed in humility, in self discipline. You would not make the act of submission…You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right…But I tell you…that reality is not external. Reality exists…only in the mind of the Party, which is collective and immortal. Whatever the Party holds to be the truth, is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party.”
Just replace “Party” with “Church”…if they’re not already one and the same.

–Mike
 
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