Confessing to a convict...does it count?

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creedseebas

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i have a question. suppose that a person who as not a priest were to go into a confessional on the side of he priest. Suppose a run-away convict who is trying to hide from the cops. now suppose that another person enters the confessional and begins to offer his confession. If the convict pretends to be a priest so as to not attract attention, and the other person never catches on and actually goes on with the confession, would th econfession be valid? I mean, the person confessing has no fault and no idea that he did not confess to a priest so are his sins forgiven? He leaves the confessional thinking he no longer has a moral sin on his soul and yet if it wasn’t a priest there, the confession wasn’t valid!!! or was it??? does the confessing party retain that sin even after doing the entire confession, just because some convict pretended to be a priest? If tha person were to die as he walked out of the church, wold his sins be forgiven or would they be retained sine it wasn’t really a priest in the confessional? it seems wierd to me that the person would have to sufer like that on account of the convict…So what happens?
 
Very simple. Yes, the Confession does count. There are situations in which ordained priests do not have faculties to hear Confessions due to lack of education, being outside his jurisdiction in some cases, etc etc. In any of these cases, if these things are known by both the Penitent and the COnfessor – priest or runaway convict – then the Sacrament is, of course, invalidated. However, if it is unknown to the Penitent, “the condition of ignorance” prevails and the Sacrament is effected by the power of the Church for the Penitent in good faith.

It recently happened to me, in fact. I was in a neighboring Diocese and heard confessions before the Mass. For some reason, it came up in a local conversation and I was reminded that we, in this Diocese, are not granted general faculties for COnfessions, but only for our DIocese. Therefore, Confessions to me are invalid outside the Diocese. A priest without faculties might as well be a runaway convict hiding in the confessional . . . they are Sacramentally both the same thing. In my situation, I wasn’t aware of it and neither were the penitents . . . the Sacraments were valid. Of course, knowing that now, I do not hear Confessions there anymore.

The wonderful thing about Canon Law and God’s law in general is that ignorance is bliss. You can’t sin without knowing it, and if something is wrong but you do it without knowing it’s wrong, you aren’t culpable. PHEW! Otherwise, there’d be no hope for anyone, eh?

– Fr. L.
 
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creedseebas:
If the convict pretends to be a priest so as to not attract attention, and the other person never catches on and actually goes on with the confession, would th econfession be valid?
Sounds like you’ve been watching “Sister Act” once too many times!

Also, no fair seeking out a priest who’s not really a priest, who is acting like a priest - just to get confession done!
 
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jrabs:
Sounds like you’ve been watching “Sister Act” once too many times!

Also, no fair seeking out a priest who’s not really a priest, who is acting like a priest - just to get confession done!
. . . or a priest who is deaf and can’t actually hear your confession. Or a priest who doesn’t speak your language . . .
 
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mercygate:
. . . or a priest who is deaf and can’t actually hear your confession. Or a priest who doesn’t speak your language . . .
Hey Mercygate - thanks for making me laugh! Yeah - that’s no fair either.
 
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creedseebas:
i have a question. suppose that a person who as not a priest were to go into a confessional on the side of he priest. Suppose a run-away convict who is trying to hide from the cops. now suppose that another person enters the confessional and begins to offer his confession. If the convict pretends to be a priest so as to not attract attention, and the other person never catches on and actually goes on with the confession, would th econfession be valid? I mean, the person confessing has no fault and no idea that he did not confess to a priest so are his sins forgiven? He leaves the confessional thinking he no longer has a moral sin on his soul and yet if it wasn’t a priest there, the confession wasn’t valid!!! or was it??? does the confessing party retain that sin even after doing the entire confession, just because some convict pretended to be a priest? If tha person were to die as he walked out of the church, wold his sins be forgiven or would they be retained sine it wasn’t really a priest in the confessional? it seems wierd to me that the person would have to sufer like that on account of the convict…So what happens?
No, the Sacrament of Reconciliation was no more valid than a Mass and Communion would be by a fake priest, not known to the parish community. Now the quetion of if the persons sins were forgiven is different. Having true Contrition and intending to Confess them. They would probably not be held against them if they were to die before their next confession since they did not know the “priest” was not a priest.
 
Hmmm? Br. Rich & Fr. JLT seem to be in disagreement with one another. If both of them are INDEED “Br” & “Fr”, this is not a good that they have differing views.
 
Sir Knight:
Hmmm? Br. Rich & Fr. JLT seem to be in disagreement with one another. If both of them are INDEED “Br” & “Fr”, this is not a good that they have differing views.
Fr. JLT’s reply seems to assume that the person in the confessional is actually a priest, though perhaps without faculties. The original question was actually about a person who was not a priest but only pretending to be one. In that case, Br. Rich’s answer is correct.

IOW: “I’m not really a priest, but I play one in the confessional. Can I really forgive sins?” Answer: No.
 
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JimG:
Fr. JLT’s reply seems to assume that the person in the confessional is actually a priest, though perhaps without faculties. The original question was actually about a person who was not a priest but only pretending to be one. In that case, Br. Rich’s answer is correct.

IOW: “I’m not really a priest, but I play one in the confessional. Can I really forgive sins?” Answer: No.
So we have to check for a Priest “licence” now?

BTW what is official form of Preist’s “licence”. A bishop has a pedigree type, what about a preist?
 
Br. Rich SFO:
No, the Sacrament of Reconciliation was no more valid than a Mass and Communion would be by a fake priest, not known to the parish community. Now the quetion of if the persons sins were forgiven is different. Having true Contrition and intending to Confess them. They would probably not be held against them if they were to die before their next confession since they did not know the “priest” was not a priest.
IF the penitent finds out that the priest was not a priest, then he must reconfess those sins at his first opportunity. If he remains ignorant through no fault of his own, the sacrament is valid.

God isn’t out to trick anyone.
 
Sir Knight:
Hmmm? Br. Rich & Fr. JLT seem to be in disagreement with one another. If both of them are INDEED “Br” & “Fr”, this is not a good that they have differing views.
No I don’t think the we disagree actually. The persons sins would not be held against them if they were to die a sudden death. I’m just saying that no Sacrament could take place because there was no valid minister, which is required for a valid Sacrament.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
No I don’t think the we disagree actually. The persons sins would not be held against them if they were to die a sudden death. I’m just saying that no Sacrament could take place because there was no valid minister, which is required for a valid Sacrament.
So how are we to know if it is valid?

If I go on a pilgrimage, I find the need to confess my sins because of my new awareness due to some spiritual awaking form the pilgrimage. If I see that there is room in the confessional and that they are accepting people, and I go. Who is to say that when I left the room to continue my pilgrimage that they found a crazed whacko in there impersonating a priest.

So my act of contrition is now in-valid even if I am totally unbeknownst of it being so? I see very little trust in the Church on this POV if it is true.

Peace 🙂
Big Jon
 
As i often say, I’m no expert in anything. But, I’ll still say something. Fr. JLT was speaking more in terms of canon law (it might be paragraph 144) and the notion of “ecclesia supplet” (“the Church supplies”). For a confessor who has no faculties but still hears confessions because he doesn’t know he is without faculties–that sacrament is valid.

As for a layman hearing confessions, there is no provision in canon law regarding the validity of that. However, there is the theological notion of “ecclesia supplet” which would apply in this case. In other words, since the penitent was not at fault, was contrite, and fully believed that the confession was valid, the Grace of the sacrament would be operative through the ministry of the Church. Whether the sacrament could be called “valid” or not–i suppose not. But, it was still effective.

In short, I agree with Br. Rich, SFO.
 
:tiphat: Hi, All!

I think I was very clear in my response above where I specifically staed " – priest or convict --" My answer simply encompassed more than the example of an escaped convict but rather the underlying question of validity of Confession in terms of the ability to absolve, be he a priest or a layman, becasue the chances of running into an escaped convict in the Confessional is, we should admit, improbable.

So it should be clear that going on pilgrimage and partaking of the Sacrament in good faith leaves you without worry. It is only in the case that the Penitent KNOWS that the Confessor has no powers of Absolution that it is invalidated. If it is unknown to the Penitent, then there is no issue at all.

There are no priest “licenses” per-se. A document called a “celebret” is issued by the Chancery but these are only valid for a very brief time period. They state, with the Bishop’s seal, that Fr. X. is a priest in good standing. Typically, they are valid from the date of departure from one’s diocese to the date of return.

When a man is ordained a priest, he received all the powers of the priethood, highest among them being the powers to confect/confer 6 of the 7 Sacraments (Priests cannot confer Holy Orders of any rank). Oh wait, that’s 7 of the 8 Sacraments if you count Bingo. Sorry, waht was I thinking?

But the Authority to validly and licitly use these powers typically from the priest’s proper bishop. Ordination does not come with an automatic authority to celebrate/confer these Sacraments everywhere and anywhere. In Seminary, there are usually certain moral courses that must be passed before certain faculties are given. We called these our “canonical courses.” Without them, we wouldn’t receive ceratin faculties. A large example comes from the turn of the 20’th century. There was such a lack of priests, that in the USA, bishops were ordaining men very early on in seminary, “Solo ad MIsssam.” (Only for Mass). That’s it; That’s all they could do. They weren’t allowed to teach, preach, confess or anything else . . they didn’t have the preparation yet to be given these other faculties.

Typically, a priest does not have general faculties to confer the Sacrament of Confirmation. (Mind you, pretty much all question of faculties, except regarding Holy Orders, go out the window when someone is in danger of death). To confirm, outside the danger of death, for a priest to confirm an adult who was baptized in a prior ceremony, he usually needs to get specific faculties, for each specific Confirmation Candidate, for a specific date, etc etc., which faculties cannot be transfered. These faculties are needed for validity of the Sacrament. It is not a trandsfer of the power to confer the Sacrament, because that came at his priestly ordination. It is the authority to USE that power which is a “faculty.” In my diocese, we were given “general faculties” to confirm adults who had been previously baptized, without need for permissions and rescripts, but only at the Easter Vigil. (If an adult has not been baptized, then the baptism and coinfirmation must happen in the same ceremony and both sacraments must be confered by the same priest. That does not need specific rescripts for faculties, if a priest was granted the normal faculties by his bishop upon his ordination.).

More clear, or more murky?

– Fr. L.
 
Thank you, Br. Dan.

I both said and did not say what you say I said. 🙂

I was, in fact, not refering to Canon law and the law of Ecclesia Suplet. I was speaking of the moral norm of what is simply called, “The Position of ignorance” or “The Position of Mutual Ignorance.” In the case I described with m yself, not having faculties to hear confessions but neither the penitents nor myself knowing that is the Condition oif Mutual Ignorance. In which case, the Sacrament is valid.

In this notion of an escaped convict who presents himself as a priest and the Penitent has no idea he’s not a priest, that is “The Poisition of Ignorance.” The sacrament is Valid. There can be no such thing as an effective but invalid sacrament. An invalid Sacrament isn’t a Sacrament and is, therefore, ineffective.

It works in reverse, as well. The valid priest Confessor may have people in the confessional whom he presumes to be Penitents but actually are not. (This is a much more likely scenario than the one acting like a priest not being an actual priest). Parish priests who hear confessions have all encountered this. It is a mortal sin for a priest to absolve someone who is unrepentent, or a person with whom he has committed or conspired to or aided in the sin committed. There are people in my area, for instance, who go into the confessionals and pretend to confess, and go through all the proper motions, to get some information on moral teaching, which they then use to somehow “desecrate” back at their coven or Pentecostal or JW “church.” If the priest is unaware at the time of the mock confession, has he committed a mortal sin? Of course not! It is “The situation of Ignorance.” If he finds out later that someone he confessed wasn’t really confessing, does he then effectively have a mortal sin on his soul because now he knows that he absolved invalidly? Of course not.

– Fr. L.
 
In order for a valid Sacrament to take place you must have either a valid Ordinary or Extraordinary minister. If the person attempting the Sacrament is not a valid minister of that Sacrament, no Sacrament takes place. I’m not speaking of jurisdiction or faculties, but of office. With Holy Orders no Sacrament takes place without a Bishop. With the Eucharist and Reconciliation and for now Anointing of the Sick no Sacrament takes place without a priest. In Marriage no Sacrament takes place without a validly Baptized Man and a validly Baptized Woman. Confirmation does not take place without a validly ordained Bishop or priest(extraondinary). Baptism is by a cleric or anyone(extraordinary).
 
Yes, Br. Rich, you are right, to a point. You are speaking only of ordinary circumstances and the original question dealt with extraordinary circumstances, which I answered clearly and correctly above.

As regarding the ordinary validity of sacraments, it is much more than a valid minister that is ncesessary. It is also valid form and matter that are needed in the celebration of each. (The minister of the Sacrament falls under matter).

In the case of Matrimony, the ordinary sacrament requires two validly baptized Catholics, not just Christians of any ilk. It also requires two witnesses capable of witnessing the exchange of vows and a validly ordained member of the hierarchy. Mixed marraige are extraordinary and require Episcopal permission to be licit (though, yes, not to be valid). When there is disparity of cult, this is also extraordinary and requires Episcopal dispensation for validity. But faculties are very closely bound up into both matter and form, depending on the Sacrament, particularly those of Matrimony and Confirmation.

But again, this is off-topic. The original question had to do with extraordinary circumstances. In the case of a confession where there is the condition of ignorance, the Sacrament is valid. One must divorce one’s self from any notion of the norther European and, by inheritance, the American systems of law to understand both the Gospel and the understand of Law within the Church.

– Fr. L.
 
Fr. JLT:
In this notion of an escaped convict who presents himself as a priest and the Penitent has no idea he’s not a priest, that is “The Poisition of Ignorance.” The sacrament is Valid. There can be no such thing as an effective but invalid sacrament. An invalid Sacrament isn’t a Sacrament and is, therefore, ineffective.
So if Tom Cruise or some other actor were really good at impersonating a priest, knew all the proper responses and how to recite the words of absolution, and no one knew he was in the confessional, he could validly confer the sacrament of Penance on a whole line of people some Saturday afternoon?

Could I get a second opinion? Or have we just solved the priest shortage?
 
Let’s not go to the absurd to the sublime here, JimG. This was a good conversation going on. Tom Cruise would not be effecting the Sacrament, the Church would be effecting a valid sacrament in the ingnorant Penitent.

The Church is the only one entrusted with all the deposit of faith and the grace of the Paschal Mystery and yes, She does make such exceptions in certain extraordinary situations.

That very notion also brings us the sense of Ecclesia suplet and Ex opere operato. Otherwise, you will be qeustiong your saslvation on matters with which you had nothing whatsoever to do. Yes, that may be the way British, Irish, German, American law works. Fortunately, that is not the way God works, nor His Holy Church.

– Fr. L.
 
Sorry for the ridiculous example, but I was trying to clarify whether absolution could be conferred by a non-ordained individual.

As I understand your answer, the Church, not the fake priest, would in the case of ignorance, effect the sacrament, by the principle of Ecclesia supplet.
 
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