Confession and liberal priests

[Pilgram2000]

I have a question. If a person’s pastor or other priest significantly deviatee from the church’s magisterium, for example they support gay marriage, women priests, etc. , can a person feel secure in receiving absolution from that priest?

 

[KnightOfSPUD]

That question could only be answered by that person himself.

Let’s create a hypothetical situation…

Fr. A supports Abortion, Gay Marriage, and Women Ordinations.

Say Fr. A kept it to himself until he shares it with someone, let’s say at a Homily

I would imagine the fainting old women, shocked devoted Catholics, confused Teenagers and/or Catechumens and secretly rejoicing gays, feminists and anti-life people.

At one point in time, the faithful would either a) avoid Father, b) talk to him about it, or c) compliment Father for his “bravery”
Now when the faithful complements their priest, gears would start turning. Father would continue what he’s doing. And it would, one way or another, lead to doing a) and b).

Now when a) and/or b) happens, this would eventually reach the ears of another priest. Now Fr. B is a good friend of Fr. A. Frs. A and B are of the same diocese and probably were ordained together. Let’s say Fr. A listened to Fr. B about the 3 no-no’s and he converted his ways and repented and asked for confession. The End

But what if Fr. A didn’t listen? There begins the spreading of this news throughout the whole Diocesan Presbyterium (the priests in a diocese). Fr. B recruited Frs. C, D, E and F. Msgr. G and Rev. H went up to Fr. A and would try to persuade hi to come back. If r. A listens, The End.

But what if rebellious Fr. A still wouldn’t listen? Inevitably, the Bishop would hear of this. Let’s say Bishop called Fr. A and gave him another of many lectures Fr. A has heard before. I would really like to say that Fr. A saw the error of his actions and repented. I mean, if I would be a priest (pray for my vocation) and be called by my Bishop I would get scared. The End.

But wait, there’s more! Fr. A still won’t give in to Bishop! Probably Bishop would suspend his faculties (to offer Mass, to hear Confession etc.) until he would repent. When the situation reaches the Bishop that’s where things would get ugly. I said would because it may not get ugly.

If Fr. A still refuses to listen, the Bishop might forward it to the Congregation of the Clergy or Bishop might excommunicate him, defrock him and everything that goes with that category.

But I cannot say what happens after the Bishop level. Probably somebody there would elucidate what might happen if things go beyond Bishop level.

Now back to what I was saying before this hypothetical situation. It’s up to the confessee to go and approach Father.

 

[Pilgram2000]

Your answer didn’t address my question at all.

Let’s create another hypothetical situation. A Catholic fellow teaches English in Mongolia. There is one Catholic Church within 200 miles of the teacher. The Church has only 2 priests, and only one speaks English. This English speaking priest advocates abortion, gay marriage, etc. The teacher commits a mortal sin, but wonders if the liberal priest can give a valid absolution or not. What do you tell the teacher?

 

[Edmundus1581]

Your answer didn’t address my question at all.

Let’s create another hypothetical situation. A Catholic fellow teaches English in Mongolia. There is one Catholic Church within 200 miles of the teacher. The Church has only 2 priests, and only one speaks English. This English speaking priest advocates abortion, gay marriage, etc. The teacher commits a mortal sin, but wonders if the liberal priest can give a valid absolution or not. What do you tell the teacher?

The hypothetical set up all the groundwork for the answer, and then didn’t finish it off.

Until Fr has his clerical faculties formally removed by the bishop, and/or is excommunicated, his absolution are valid - as are all his sacraments. In cases of emergency, they are valid even in those situations.

The Church appoints confessors, not the laity.

If you received advice from him in the confessional that was heterodox, eg. that fornication is not a sin, then you should reject it. But you are not bound to accept any advice given in the confessional anyway. It’s just that - advice.

Let’s create another hypothetical situation. A Catholic fellow teaches English in Mongolia. There is one Catholic Church within 200 miles of the teacher. The Church has only 2 priests, and only one speaks English. This English speaking priest advocates abortion, gay marriage, etc. The teacher commits a mortal sin, but wonders if the liberal priest can give a valid absolution or not. What do you tell the teacher?

It’s not really a different situation. The geography and other incidentals don’t matter. The priest has faculties to hear confessions and give absolution. Period.

Those whose sins you pardon, they are pardoned. Those whose sins you retain, they are retained.

Trust the Church.

ps. Why specifically mention “liberal” priests? Any priest can be a dissenter - whether he be “liberal” or “conservative”, and it makes no difference to his faculties as a priest.

 

[fbl9]

The hypothetical set up all the groundwork for the answer, and then didn’t finish it off.

Until Fr has his clerical faculties formally removed by the bishop, and/or is excommunicated, his absolution are valid - as are all his sacraments. In cases of emergency, they are valid even in those situations.

The Church appoints confessors, not the laity.

If you received advice from him in the confessional that was heterodox, eg. that fornication is not a sin, then you should reject it. But you are not bound to accept any advice given in the confessional anyway. It’s just that - advice.

It’s not really a different situation. The geography and other incidentals don’t matter. The priest has faculties to hear confessions and give absolution. Period.

Those whose sins you pardon, they are pardoned. Those whose sins you retain, they are retained.

Trust the Church.

ps. Why specifically mention “liberal” priests? Any priest can be a dissenter - whether he be “liberal” or “conservative”, and it makes no difference to his faculties as a priest.

The absolution given is not from the priest but rather Christ as the priest is acting in persona of Christ.

 

[peter26]

Absolution from a priest with faculties is valid.

BUT the thing to be wary of if a priest is known to have views that differ from church teachings is if he advises you that something you know if sinful is not. In that case, go to him for absolution if there is no other option, but take his advice with a pinch of salt.

 

[Wesrock]

Your answer didn’t address my question at all.

Let’s create another hypothetical situation. A Catholic fellow teaches English in Mongolia. There is one Catholic Church within 200 miles of the teacher. The Church has only 2 priests, and only one speaks English. This English speaking priest advocates abortion, gay marriage, etc. The teacher commits a mortal sin, but wonders if the liberal priest can give a valid absolution or not. What do you tell the teacher?

It’s not really the priest giving absolution, but Jesus acting through the priest. The priest’s personal disposition has no impact on whether Jesus acts through the priest, so long as the form is followed.

 

[Joe_5859]

I have a question. If a person’s pastor or other priest significantly deviatee from the church’s magisterium, for example they support gay marriage, women priests, etc. , can a person feel secure in receiving absolution from that priest?

From the Catechism:

1128 This is the meaning of the Church’s affirmation [49] that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: “by the very fact of the action’s being performed”), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that “the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God.” [50] From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

[49] Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1608.
[50] St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 68,8.

The holiness or orthodoxy of the priest is irrelevant to whether the sacraments they celebrate are valid. As long as they follow the form and use the proper matter, the sacrament is valid. That’s because God is the one supplying the grace, not the priest.

Imagine if this were not the case. It would be pandemonium. We’d have to give the priest a catechism quiz and peer into his soul in order to be certain we were actually receiving the sacrament. Thankfully, that is not necessary.

 

[johnnyc176]

Your answer didn’t address my question at all.

Let’s create another hypothetical situation. A Catholic fellow teaches English in Mongolia. There is one Catholic Church within 200 miles of the teacher. The Church has only 2 priests, and only one speaks English. This English speaking priest advocates abortion, gay marriage, etc. The teacher commits a mortal sin, but wonders if the liberal priest can give a valid absolution or not. What do you tell the teacher?

It’s a good question because it may be that the liberal priest doesn’t think a confessor’s sin is a sin. I guess it would only matter if he actually ‘advises’ the confessor of that. So in that case would the absolution, if any, include the disputed ‘sin’?

 

[SuperLuigi]

ps. Why specifically mention “liberal” priests? Any priest can be a dissenter - whether he be “liberal” or “conservative”, and it makes no difference to his faculties as a priest.

Technically that’s true, but In the West today, it’s quite obvious that liberal is much more synonymous with anti-orthodox behaviour.

 

[Joe_5859]

It’s a good question because it may be that the liberal priest doesn’t think a confessor’s sin is a sin. I guess it would only matter if he actually ‘advises’ the confessor of that. So in that case would the absolution, if any, include the disputed ‘sin’?

It doesn’t matter if the priest doesn’t think it’s a sin, didn’t understand what you said, or gives you bad advice. As long as he has the faculties from the bishop to hear Confession and uses the words of absolution, all your sins are forgiven.

Certainly, if you have had experience with a particular priest giving bad advice, you may choose not to go to him for Confession because you want someone who will give more reliable spiritual guidance. But he will forgive your sins just the same as any other priest.

 

[OraLabora]

Technically that’s true, but In the West today, it’s quite obvious that liberal is much more synonymous with anti-orthodox behaviour.

I’m not sure I agree. There are plenty of conservatives who pick and choose the teachings of the Church they choose to follow, for example on social and poverty issues. We are human, we are a fallen species, and conservatives are just as “fallen” as liberals. Being “orthodox” actually means practicing the Gospels in daily life, and in today’s Western society, this is just as radical a concept for conservatives as it is for liberals because the Gospels will shoot down the cherished ideas of both sides of the political spectrum (and let’s be clear, “liberal” and “conservative” are political constructs; as far as the Church goes, there is “orthodox” and “non-orthodox”, period).

As for the validity of “liberal” absolutions, Christ does not take away His sacraments once He’s bestowed them. While a validly ordained priest not in good standing with his bishop or religious community many not licitly hear confessions, the faculty remains valid and may licitly be used in emergencies.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I have a question. If a person’s pastor or other priest significantly deviatee from the church’s magisterium, for example they support gay marriage, women priests, etc. , can a person feel secure in receiving absolution from that priest?

My former pastor whom I love dearly could not see why abortion should be illegal and I even got in an argument with him over it. However he never preached homilies on it he never said you need to allow for abortion, and he did at least admit that it was sinful. That being said I used to go to him to Confession quite often and for the very simple fact he was a good confessor. Is your asking if it the confession is invalid no it would not be if they are a validly ordained priest and gave you the valid words of Absolution. If you feel uncomfortable going to them then don’t go to them

 

[Joe_5859]

As for the validity of “liberal” absolutions, Christ does not take away His sacraments once He’s bestowed them. While a validly ordained priest not in good standing with his bishop or religious community many not licitly hear confessions, the faculty remains valid and may licitly be used in emergencies.

Not quite true. Faculties are required for both liceity and validity (except for emergency situations). From Canon Law:

Can. 966 §1. The valid absolution of sins requires that the minister have, in addition to the power of orders, the faculty of exercising it for the faithful to whom he imparts absolution.

 

[johnnyc176]

It doesn’t matter if the priest doesn’t think it’s a sin, didn’t understand what you said, or gives you bad advice. As long as he has the faculties from the bishop to hear Confession and uses the words of absolution, all your sins are forgiven.

Certainly, if you have had experience with a particular priest giving bad advice, you may choose not to go to him for Confession because you want someone who will give more reliable spiritual guidance. But he will forgive your sins just the same as any other priest.

The example I was speaking to was a case where the priest audibly tells the confessor that the sin he just confessed is not a sin before the absolution. The confessor kept insisting he wanted to confess the sin and the priest told him that the absolution would not include that sin because well it wasn’t a sin. This was something I heard one of the guest relate on CAL. He ended up going to another parish but he had the opportunity. That would not be the case in op’s situation.

 

[johnnyc176]

Technically that’s true, but In the West today, it’s quite obvious that liberal is much more synonymous with anti-orthodox behaviour.

It’s pretty obvious there is a divide in the Church. Bishop Schneider addressed it in a recent interview…

The very crisis of the Church in our days consists in the ever growing phenomenon that those who don’t fully believe and profess the integrity of the Catholic faith frequently occupy strategic positions in the life of the Church, such as professors of theology, educators in seminaries, religious superiors, parish priests and even bishops and cardinals. And these people with their defective faith profess themselves as being submitted to the Pope.

The height of confusion and absurdity manifests itself when such semi-heretical clerics accuse those who defend the purity and integrity of the Catholic faith as being against the Pope – as being according to their opinion in some way schismatics. For simple Catholics in the pews, such a situation of confusion is a real challenge of their faith, in the indestructibility of the Church. They have to keep strong the integrity of their faith according to the immutable Catholic truths, which were handed over by our fore-fathers, and which we find in in the Traditional catechisms and in the works of the Fathers and of the Doctors of the Church.

And of course we have Cardinal Burke, the African bishops and others speak of it. Not sure why there is a hesitancy by some to address a problem.

As related to the thread we have the recent article in what is considered a liberal publication that the sacrament of Confession is not even necessary. It’s unfortunate but labels are necessary to identify as such.

 

[Edmundus1581]

It’s a good question because it may be that the liberal priest doesn’t think a confessor’s sin is a sin. I guess it would only matter if he actually ‘advises’ the confessor of that. So in that case would the absolution, if any, include the disputed ‘sin’?

Answered by Joe:

It doesn’t matter if the priest doesn’t think it’s a sin, didn’t understand what you said, or gives you bad advice. As long as he has the faculties from the bishop to hear Confession and uses the words of absolution, all your sins are forgiven.

Correct. I just want to expand on this point, as it addresses a very common misunderstanding about the sacrament. I had this misunderstanding for many years.

The priest does not absolve the sins you have confessed. He absolves YOU. Every sin, including those you may have forgotten, or not confessed well, or which he misunderstood, etc.

" I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Emphasis added.)

We see so many questions here relating to “Is my confession valid?”, and I suspect that this misunderstanding underlies many of them.

(This assumes, of course, that the penitent has made a sincere confession, not deliberately witholding any mortal sins).

 

[Edmundus1581]

I’m not sure I agree. There are plenty of conservatives who pick and choose the teachings of the Church they choose to follow, for example on social and poverty issues. We are human, we are a fallen species, and conservatives are just as “fallen” as liberals. Being “orthodox” actually means practicing the Gospels in daily life, and in today’s Western society, this is just as radical a concept for conservatives as it is for liberals because the Gospels will shoot down the cherished ideas of both sides of the political spectrum (and let’s be clear, “liberal” and “conservative” are political constructs; as far as the Church goes, there is “orthodox” and “non-orthodox”, period).

Thankyou. Good points.

 

[Joe_5859]

Answered by Joe:

Correct. I just want to expand on this point, as it addresses a very common misunderstanding about the sacrament. I had this misunderstanding for many years.

The priest does not absolve the sins you have confessed. He absolves YOU. Every sin, including those you may have forgotten, or not confessed well, or which he misunderstood, etc.

" I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Emphasis added.)

We see so many questions here relating to “Is my confession valid?”, and I suspect that this misunderstanding underlies many of them.

(This assumes, of course, that the penitent has made a sincere confession, not deliberately witholding any mortal sins).

Good point.

 

[Mary_Ellen]

I have a question. If a person’s pastor or other priest significantly deviatee from the church’s magisterium, for example they support gay marriage, women priests, etc. , can a person feel secure in receiving absolution from that priest?

The ability to give absolution lies with his faculties and are not dependent upon the state of the priest’s soul.

It is heresy, specifically the heresy of Donatism, to hold that the effectiveness of the sacraments depends on the moral character of the minister. In other words, if a minister who was involved in a serious enough sin were to baptize a person or celebrate the Mass, that baptism would be considered invalid or the Eucharist would not be validly confected.

I might be suspicious of spiritual advice given by such a priest in the Confessional but I would not doubt that Sacrament was valid as long as the Form and Matter of the Sacrament were present.