Confession: number and kind?

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Clearly, unless the offense was so grievous as murder, or rape, etc., the number of times need not be the actual numerical total. The priest has to know approximately how often the sin occurs, and the seriousness of the sin.
 
Actually yes if they are mortal sins - they are countable (and are to be) . One may not perhaps due to memory get the exact number and may even need to approximate (see above).
I don’t know how anger, for example, is countable. Often a person will be angry on and off for days or weeks. Is that one instance of anger, lasting 2 weeks, or multiple instances every time you think about it? Maybe that kind of generic emotion can’t reach a mortal level unless you act on it.

In any case, approximations work fine: often, every week, occasionally etc.

God Bless
 
Clearly, unless the offense was so grievous as murder, or rape, etc., the number of times need not be the actual numerical total. The priest has to know approximately how often the sin occurs, and the seriousness of the sin.
This is how I was always taught, as well; that you must indicate approximately how often a sin has occurred (whether it be just once or a regular sinful habit with many occurrences), and the gravity of the sin. I had never learned that an exact number was necessary. I am perplexed at the thought of my past confessions suddenly being rendered invalid because of my ignorance if that is the truthful requirement.
 
Is this to say that the past 20 years of reconciliation for me have been invalid? It is absolutely impossible for one to go back and remain accountable for sins which were committed, confessed, absolved, and penance served for. I appreciate your insight, and I will speak with my confessor regarding this on Saturday.
No, they are valid unless you deliberately withheld a mortal sin.

Forgotten sins are absolved, and are sins you did not know were mortal. If you didn’t know the requirement for kind and number, your failure to cite number also does NOT invalidate your confession.

If the priest feels he needs more detail, he will ask.

God Bless
 
Is this to say that the past 20 years of reconciliation for me have been invalid? It is absolutely impossible for one to go back and remain accountable for sins which were committed, confessed, absolved, and penance served for. I appreciate your insight, and I will speak with my confessor regarding this on Saturday.
I would say it is not impossible – though one does what is possible of course-- but it is possible to some extent -one may need to approximate in many cases --but it can be done.

We though proceed in modo humano (in a human way) not in modo vulcano (like Mr. Spock --who would have a very different memory than us! hee hee).

And it is said to be done in the next confession after one realizes the omission.

If I committed murder 3x and only confessed “murder” --I have in fact only confessed ONE murder – I still need to confess the other 2 --for they have NOT been directly submitted to the keys in confession (Unless of course I intentionally hid it --then I will need to confess them all again and the hiding of the mortal sins…)

Now of course we only can do what is possible --so I may after 20 years be able to sit and go through and examine and come up with a list with numbers --some exact --and some approximate (even many x if need be or few x) – and still miss some due to my memory --well that is what I can do. If they later appear to my memory --oh oh I forgot the murder 3x --well then in the next confession I am to mention it. But if something remains forgotten even after our due diligence -well they are still absolved indirectly.
 
Clearly, unless the offense was so grievous as murder, or rape, etc., the number of times need not be the actual numerical total. The priest has to know approximately how often the sin occurs, and the seriousness of the sin.
We can approximate according to what we do know but such is only when we do not know the number.
 
In confession if I go in and confess “murder” the Priest is likely to assume it was 1x …and not ask (it is confession after all not interrogation…)…but it is also the case that some have had poor seminary formation during some difficult times in the past in some places…that is they can be sadly misinformed. Hopefully not in most cases --but rather that they assume it was one time.

Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers:

jimmyakin.com/2012/03/confessing-by-kind-and-number.html

jimmyakin.com/2007/03/specific_confes.html

jimmyakin.com/2006/09/a_reader_writes_1.html
 
Code of Canon Law:

Can. 988 §1. A member of the Christian faithful is obliged to confess in kind and number all grave sins committed after baptism and not yet remitted directly through the keys of the Church nor acknowledged in individual confession, of which the person has knowledge after diligent examination of conscience.

§2. It is recommended to the Christian faithful that they also confess venial sins.
 
This is how I was always taught, as well; that you must indicate approximately how often a sin has occurred (whether it be just once or a regular sinful habit with many occurrences), and the gravity of the sin. I had never learned that an exact number was necessary. I am perplexed at the thought of my past confessions suddenly being rendered invalid because of my ignorance if that is the truthful requirement.
If you have been going to confession regularly for 20 years, then you have probably confessed all your mortal sins 🙂 The requirement is to say *at least *your sins in kind and number (I seem to lose my temper a couple of times a day or a week, I committed adultery once a week for seven months). {ETA: but you must confess *all *the mortal sins you remember!} You don’t *have *to go into any more detail than that unless it changes the nature of the sin as in the chalice example above. You don’t have to say, I got mad at my boss when he did X, I got mad at my son when he did Y, and I got mad at my husband when he did Z–just I got mad three times.

A small amount of spiritual direction in confession is one thing, but taking up a lot of time at confession before Mass is not really fair to those who are waiting; that is why that is discouraged, not a problem within the sacrament.
 
I don’t know how anger, for example, is countable. Often a person will be angry on and off for days or weeks. Is that one instance of anger, lasting 2 weeks, or multiple instances every time you think about it? Maybe that kind of generic emotion can’t reach a mortal level unless you act on it.

In any case, approximations work fine: often, every week, occasionally etc.

God Bless
Anger – can be a mortal sin (even interior anger without exterior action) but it can also be venial (often can be). But one can yes count if it was mortal–but depending on what it was etc it could be said accordingly and according to ones knowledge.

I was anger and thinking of ways to actually murder my boss – 3x
 
We can approximate according to what we do know but such is only when we do not know the number.
Someone going to Confession once a month or so, will have no trouble remembering the actual number of times a serious sin has been committed. Someone returning to the Sacraments after a number of years, can only estimate, and that is all that the priest can reasonably expect. God knows the heart of the penitent; the priest knows the difficulty and earnestness of the sinner. That is sufficient.
 
Someone going to Confession once a month or so, will have no trouble remembering the actual number of times a serious sin has been committed. Someone returning to the Sacraments after a number of years, can only estimate, and that is all that the priest can reasonably expect. God knows the heart of the penitent; the priest knows the difficulty and earnestness of the sinner. That is sufficient.
They can perhaps only estimate.

They are to do a diligent examination and confess all mortal sins in number and kind (and circumstance that changes the kind) and if they do not know the number --they can approximate according to what they know.

I accuse myself of murder 3x, adultery 2x, lustful thoughts many many times (do not know how many), perjury 1x, I stole a car once (and returned it), serious anger at least a few times (all I know)…such and such around 10-15x…etc
 
Let me note that with regard to number we are not required to do the impossible- to tell the priest the exact number when we ourselves have forgotten or never kept track of the number. We just have to do our best. We must give the exact number if we know the exact number, and if we don’t know it then we have to give as close an impression of the exact number as we can. I assume many priests would accept “many times” as the best guess a person can give, although I would suggest that “about x times” or “about x times a week since my last confession” would be preferable if you can truthfully make that estimate.

Ultimately it is the responsibility of the penitent not the priest to give the best guess they can. The vast majority of priests will almost always, or (wrongly, perhaps) absolutely always give absolution, giving the penitent the benefit of the doubt that they are contrite, have a firm purpose of amendment, and are doing their best to confess the number and kind of all mortal sins they have committed. Of course the absolution will be invalid if the penitent is deliberately withholding any mortal sin, whether a kind of moral sin or simply the number of times they committed that sin.
 
A few of us who visit this site learned how to make a good confession prior to Vatican II. We were taught to recite the sins we had committed and the number of times we had committed these sins.
Unfortunately what evolved was a type of “grocery list” of sins being given to the priest acting as confessor. This can have the negative consequences of focusing more on our guilt than on the saving power of the Sacrament.
It is more important to enter the confessional with a spirit of repentance than to know the exact number of times a particular sin has been committed. An adulterer, for example, might recount that he is ending his long running affair after so many months. He has come to realize how much pain he is causing his spouse and the person with whom he was cheating. That realization is more important than how many times he actually cheated on his wife.

On a day of renewal, the priest leading the retreat pointed to the reality that individuals who confess regularly are unlikely to actually commit a mortal sin. A mortal sin is a deliberate turning away from God. Scripture does tell us that a “righteous man sins seven times a day,” and each of us has an area of sin in our lives with which we struggle. His suggestion for those of us who make devotional confessions was to focus on one major area of sin in our lives.

The more open we are about the struggles we face in our daily life, the more spiritual guidance the priest can provide when dealing with daily temptations. It is one of the reasons I prefer face-to-face confession over confessing behind a screen. There have been times when I expected to spend a long time in the confessional and surprised those waiting with how quickly I was in and out. On the other hand, my possibly longest confession occurred during what I thought would be a “quick in and out.” A good confessor can elicit information that will help the penitent as he/she returns to the world and everyday struggles.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation is there to restore our relationship that has been destroyed by mortal sin. It is also there to help us maintain our relationship with God, repairing minor rips before they become major rifts. This reconciliation is totally the work of God’s grace. To be effective, we need to be open to that grace and the healing power of the Sacrament.
 
Sometimes it is offered in the forums that–

If the priest feels he needs more detail – he can ask for it.

It is to be noted yes that unneeded details are left out.

but it is also to be noted that:

It is a confession not an interrogation. We are to* confess *our mortal sins …we accuse ourselves of them…🙂

In number and kind…(for mortal).
 
I believe that when in His infinite wisdom Our Lord instituted the sacrament of Pennance He knew that we of sinners would not just need forgiveness but also sometimes counselling. Especially for repeated sinful behaviors that could indicate deeper problems. By telling the priest that we stole something once as opposed to 20 times this week it gives him a good indication of the help and advice we need.
 
Many of us were taught to “explain to Father what we did wrong.” Confession was a “dialogue” or “chat.” From the chat-style, our parish (d)evolved to communal Absolution.

I’ve been availing myself of Confession every week or two for twenty years, and I’m still working on getting it right. :D.

Learning to confess sins by name and number has helped my spiritual life. I’m at a loss for words to explain, but perhaps it’s that the focus shifts from me and my feelings to being forgiven of my sins and how I’m going to amend my life … something like that.

Something else, when you confess your sins by name and number, the priests are always glad to hear you on the other side of the screen. You can hear the warmth and smile in their greeting. They ask for details or counsel as God guides them.

Don’t feel badly for doing it the other way; like I said, lots of us weren’t catechized properly.
 
**Something else, when you confess your sins by name and number, the priests are always glad to hear you on the other side of the screen. You can hear the warmth and smile in their greeting. They ask for details or counsel as God guides them.

Don’t feel badly for doing it the other way; like I said, lots of us weren’t catechized properly.

:eek: I do not know that, if I were the priest, I would have the same reaction. What I agree with is your last sentence above.
What I observe now is the reaction of our Soverein Pontif Benedict. Some of his speeches mention that confession is moving to witnessing of our true love for ourselves and our neighbor. How do we publicly bring peoples, events, possessions to the GLORY of our Father God.
Can this change our vision or should we continue the old style? 👍 :rolleyes:
 
**Something else, when you confess your sins by name and number, the priests are always glad to hear you on the other side of the screen. You can hear the warmth and smile in their greeting. They ask for details or counsel as God guides them.

Don’t feel badly for doing it the other way; like I said, lots of us weren’t catechized properly.

:eek: I do not know that, if I were the priest, I would have the same reaction. What I agree with is your last sentence above.
What I observe now is the reaction of our Soverein Pontif Benedict. Some of his speeches mention that confession is moving to witnessing of our true love for ourselves and our neighbor. How do we publicly bring peoples, events, possessions to the GLORY of our Father God.
Can this change our vision or should we continue the old style? 👍 :rolleyes:
When you go beyond just name and number, you can get to the cause of the sin. What exactly is the temptation that I face? What are the circumstances in my life that contribute to the particular sins that I commit? How can I change my response to what is happening in my life so that I don’t simply repeat the same sins over and over again?
I agree that many people have not been properly catechized. The result is a rote recitation of sins, the litany of crimes committed.
I have had many priests include in their homilies why it is important to go beyond the grocery list of name and number. Being honest about the difficulties we face in our daily lives means that the priest can engage in his role as spiritual counselor, giving us a new perspective as we continue our spiritual journey. Theft, as an example, becomes more than a violation of the commandment, it becomes a sin against justice.
It is also important not to use the circumstances in our life as an excuse for the sins that we do commit.
The Sacrament of Reconciliation is a place for more than repentence. It is a healing Sacrament that ideally leads to our continued conversion of heart.
 
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