Confession - 'Spiritual Principles'

[Jeanne1184]

Hi, All ~

I have some questions about Confession but from the standpoint of AA (Step 5).

I belong to an AA group and certain things have been said recently that have raised questions.

1. Someone said they refused to hear the 5th Step of someone who did not believe in God. I found this odd as I was agnostic when I did my 5th Step, but was absolutely a believer, from experience, in the Holy Spirit upon completion. Forgiveness came from Within. Grace is truly amazing.
2. Several others have stated that they announce before hearing a 5th Step of what sins they refuse to hear, such as robberies (legal issues), sexual abuse (child or adult), murder, assault, perversion … I wonder about those who don’t ‘declare’ sins they don’t feel are forgiveable and hear confessions anyway.

My question is this: If someone hears something in a 5th Step that they can’t abide as forgiveable, does it fall under the Biblical rule of “whatever is loosed will be loosed in Heaven; whatever is retained will be retained in Heaven”?

If the person confessing is doing so in the right spirit - is their sin not forgiven because the person hearing the confession does not forgive them (whether spoken or silent)? Or is the retention of the sin held against the person hearing the confession?

Is there ever a sin a priest does not feel is forgiveable (if the person is truly sorry) except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

I ask because we’ve recently had discussions about alcoholics who are in and out of AA and treatment facilities many times. In the 12x12 (Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions), the paragraphs below speak to possible problems with the 5th Step. I understand if the person holds onto the worst monsters in the dungeon of the mind how it affects their ability to remain sober. However, I’m also wondering if those hearing 5th Steps can be causing unintended consequences from their own unforgiveness of certain sins - or by taking it upon themselves whether the person is sorry or not.

I’ve looked on the net for Spiritual Principles of Confession but have been unsuccessful where the ‘loosing and retaining’ are concerned.

I’m beginning to think that lack of proper 5th Step principles in place may cause undue problems. Like confessing serves no purpose if one is not ready to turn away from the sin confessed. If someone doesn’t realize this, they may come away from a 5th Step disallusioned and not feel the ‘lightness of being’ that others of us Know.

I hope this question isn’t offensive in this forum. Catholics are the only ones I know who have formal Confession. And, to the best of my knowledge, Catholicism doesn’t object to AA as it is practiced.

Thank you for any guidance/guideline you may have on this topic.

Sincerely,

Jeanne

Excerpts:

12x12 (p56) - “Certain distressing or humiliating memories, we tell ourselves, ought not be shared with anyone. These will remain our secret. Not a soul must ever know. We hope they’ll go to the grave with us.”

“Some people are unable to stay sober at all; others will relapse periodically until they really clean house. Even AA old timers, sober for years, often pay dearly for skimping on this Step. They will tell how they tried to carry the load alone; how much they suffered or irritability, anxiety, remorse, and depression; and how, unconsciously seeking relief, they would sometimes accuse even their best friends of the very character defects they themselves were trying to conceal. They always discovered that relief never came by confessing the sins of other people. Everybody had to confess his own.”

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

What is the “5th step”?

There are some sins which priests can’t absolve without special permission from the bishop, or are reserved for the holy see, in which case the priest must withhold absolution until such permissions are received. This is void in emergency situations when there isn’t time to get permission. Also, if the priest has reason to believe the penitent is not actually sorry for their sin, the priest is required to withhold absolution, unless there is danger of death.

The “unforgivable sin” is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, aka final impenitence. The only reason it’s unforgiveable is because the sinner refuses to give up his sin.

 

[Daizies]

5: Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. (yay google! )

 

[Jeanne1184]

What is the “5th step”?

There are some sins which priests can’t absolve without special permission from the bishop, or are reserved for the holy see, in which case the priest must withhold absolution until such permissions are received. This is void in emergency situations when there isn’t time to get permission. Also, if the priest has reason to believe the penitent is not actually sorry for their sin, the priest is required to withhold absolution, unless there is danger of death.

The “unforgivable sin” is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, aka final impenitence. The only reason it’s unforgiveable is because the sinner refuses to give up his sin.

Sorry, Step 5 of AA’s 12-Steps is:

1. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. ((akin to “confess to one another” in the Bible))

The “unforgivable sin” is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, aka final impenitence. The only reason it’s unforgiveable is because the sinner refuses to give up his sin.<<

I’d never have come to see blaspheming the Holy Spirit as you have described. To me, it isn’t possible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit unless one Knows, beyond doubt and through experience, who the Holy Spirit is in the first place. Perhaps if Solomon had transgressed under the New Covenant instead of the replaced Law he would have qualified. It’s hard for me to imagine turning back from the Holy Spirit once experienced. Then again, Ego can gain a hold again if complacency sets in.

Was thrown also by the forgiving of someone at death’s door even if they are clearly not sorry. After thinking a minute, it makes sense with regard to “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” Thanks. Anything that includes more souls rather than excludes souls is in the right direction (to my understanding).

As for some sins needing ‘higher authority’ to be forgiven … first I’ve heard of that as well. Things are getting muddier instead of clearer.

Best to All,

Jeanne

 

[Christmastwin]

Jeanne, I’m a member of AA as well. Read “Into Action” in the Big Book. It explains the 5th step pretty well. An excerpt… “Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive this.” p74

Also, it is strongly suggested that a person seek legal counsel and talk to an attorney if there is anything in their past they will be unloading during their 5th Step that someone, by law, would have to take to the authorities.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I hope this question isn’t offensive in this forum. Catholics are the only ones I know who have formal Confession. And, to the best of my knowledge, Catholicism doesn’t object to AA as it is practiced.

Certainly not! We always welcome questions about Catholicism. I would like to add that your question is unusual and interesting, and also very thoughtful as you discern a relationship between 5th step confession and Sacramental Confession in the Catholic Church. And no, Catholicism does not object to AA (although there are some dissenting opinions on this).

Jeanne, I’m a member of AA as well. Read “Into Action” in the Big Book. It explains the 5th step pretty well. An excerpt… “Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive this.” p74

Also, it is strongly suggested that a person seek legal counsel and talk to an attorney if there is anything in their past they will be unloading during their 5th Step that someone, by law, would have to take to the authorities.

Hope this helps a little.

Fellow 12 stepper here (not AA, however). Yet to do my 5th.

Yes, my understanding is that any restriction on admission of faults derives from not putting the hearer into a position where they are obliged, legally, to report someone. It is not there to give them authority to decide that they personally can’t “abide” someone’s sin and to “retain” it.

This then is a big difference from Catholic confession, where the priest must NEVER, under any circumstances, reveal what he has heard in the confessional. Thus all serious sins can be revealed to a confessor, and, indeed must be. In addition a priest does not form any personal opinion of the sins, however serious they may be, other than to determine whether they have been properly confessed (which doesn’t actually require much detail), and whether there is repentance and amendment, in which case he must grant absolution. He has NO AUTHORITY - none whatsoever - to retain sins because of his personal opinion of the nature of the sin. Canon law, and Church tradition, require him grant absolution for penitents who have properly confessed, and are properly disposed. Caveat: there a particular “reserved sins” in which cases absolution is simply delayed for a limited time, but must be eventually granted under the usual conditions.

I suspect, but don’t know, that AA would expect that 5th steppers would get more benefit if they were able to reveal their true worst actions within the program.

---

I would just like to finish with some general observations, which I hope are relevant to your question.

There is certainly considerable convergence between the 5th step and Sacramental Confession in the Catholic Church. The point of similarity being that by confessing our wrongs to another person (rather than directly to God, or to ourselves) we are freed of them. The differences is that in Sacramental Confession the “hearer”, ie. priest, has the authority to directly absolve the sinner. Moreover, this “absolution”, in which the priest extends God’s limitless mercy to every sinner, is the primary purpose of Sacramental Reconciliation, with the psychological benefit being of secondary importance.

A huge difference I have noticed between admission of wrongs in 12 step meetings and Catholic confession is that in the 12 steps we admit our “wrongfullness” and “defects”, eg. “self obsession” as much as actual sins. Catholic confession is entirely concerned with actual deeds and thoughts (or lack of them), rather than character.

However, Catholic experience has shown that while Sacramental Confession sometimes cures us of persistent habits, such as alcoholism, in many cases it doesn’t, and that the person needs more complete treatment to turn their life around. Counselling with a professional is often recommended, and 12 Step programs are also recommended. Thus, for a Catholic, direct confession to a priest, which is fairly brief, can combined with confession of faults and wrongs in a 12 step program, which is more detailed and goes deeper.

 

[Jeanne1184]

Jeanne, I’m a member of AA as well. Read “Into Action” in the Big Book. It explains the 5th step pretty well. An excerpt… “Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive this.” p74

Also, it is strongly suggested that a person seek legal counsel and talk to an attorney if there is anything in their past they will be unloading during their 5th Step that someone, by law, would have to take to the authorities.

Hope this helps a little.

I’ve read the BB a time or two. The questions I have are with the Process of Confession - how it works as far as Spiritual Principles/Rules. Not everyone in AA is affilliated with a religion - and I’m curious about the possible connection between ‘winging it’ 5th Steps and relapse.

I’ll keep Googling.

All the best,

Jeanne

 

[Jeanne1184]

Certainly not! We always welcome questions about Catholicism. I would like to add that your question is unusual and interesting, and also very thoughtful as you discern a relationship between 5th step confession and Sacramental Confession in the Catholic Church. And no, Catholicism does not object to AA (although there are some dissenting opinions on this).

Perhaps it’s because I attended 12 yrs of parochial school, but left the faith at 16 over unanswered questions and Confession. At 44, entered AA. Imagine my distress, after becoming somewhat sure-footed in sobriety, to see Confession smack dab in the middle of AA - no matter what they euphemistically called it. “What’s THAT doing here?!” No way, now how. I reviewed my logic on the issue and it was flawless. (Also, guess the 4th Step would be an ‘examinatin of conscience’?)

Four yrs later, I hit a ‘sober bottom’ - and in such pain, found the willingness to let the dragon off the leash. Discovered the Holy Spirit - that the Bible and all the philosophers were right - the Answer really is Within. I don’t understand the need for absolution when Forgiveness comes from within - but saying/writing the transgressions to another person is essential. I only partly understand the ‘why’ of it, thus far.

Fellow 12 stepper here (not AA, however). Yet to do my 5th.

Don’t miss it, even if you can. The Great Reality Within/HPW awaits. (BB p55)

I suspect, but don’t know, that AA would expect that 5th steppers would get more benefit if they were able to reveal their true worst actions within the program.

Wholeheartedly agree. However, without others understanding the Sanctity of the 5th Step/Confession, there is potential for great harm spiritually and otherwise. I’m sure that in early AA, there were many who could offer ‘unconditional ears’ to new members. So many today miss the experience of the Holy Spirit - Ego calls that wondrous feeling ‘relief’. (And, of course, some take short cuts that don’t work.) Awareness is the answer; willingness the key.

My mother was a convert to Catholicism when she married my father. I recalled that when I was a child, more than once I overheard my mother saying how much better she felt after going to Confession. That was never my experience, of course, as I said never said anything beyond “disobeyed my mother and father, lied, and fought with my brothers” - all the way to 16 y.o. But I wonder how many make a rigorously honest confession but through lack of awareness, miss the Awakening of the Guide Within.

If the inability of some others to stay sober after many attempts in AA is due to illegal or morally reprehensible thought/acts, then the only suggestion I can see is to steer them toward a priest. But I don’t know if that would be welcome if the person had only a ‘Higher Power’. For me, for four years, mine was GoD - Group of Drunks. Strange how AA worked with only the Holy Spirit Within working by reading my heart of right desire until my Awareness caught up.

---

A huge difference I have noticed between admission of wrongs in 12 step meetings and Catholic confession is that in the 12 steps we admit our “wrongfullness” and “defects”, eg. “self obsession” as much as actual sins. Catholic confession is entirely concerned with actual deeds and thoughts (or lack of them), rather than character.

So true, AA is concerned with ‘causes and conditions’ - motives and much more. It remains a fascinating, Guided journey to the center of the mind.

There was something else I objected strongly to from my Catholic beginnings - that I must be pure in thought, word and deed. I discounted ‘thought’ because I had no control over my thoughts. Turned out thought carried a great deal of shame whether wishing others ill or in fantasies. Desperation made me teachable, at last.

Strangely, 40 yrs later - these exchanges are bringing me back around to seeing the value in having been raised Catholic and the truths that I just couldn’t appreciate earlier in life.

Best wishes on your Journey,

Jeanne

 

[Edmundus1581]

Thank you for the reply, Jean.

Perhaps it’s because I attended 12 yrs of parochial school, but left the faith at 16 over unanswered questions and Confession. At 44, entered AA. Imagine my distress, after becoming somewhat sure-footed in sobriety, to see Confession smack dab in the middle of AA - no matter what they euphemistically called it. “What’s THAT doing here?!” No way, now how. I reviewed my logic on the issue and it was flawless. (Also, guess the 4th Step would be an ‘examinatin of conscience’?)

“my logic … was flawless”… haha… As we say “Your best thinking got you here”

Four yrs later, I hit a ‘sober bottom’ - and in such pain, found the willingness to let the dragon off the leash. Discovered the Holy Spirit - that the Bible and all the philosophers were right - the Answer really is Within. I don’t understand the need for absolution when Forgiveness comes from within - but saying/writing the transgressions to another person is essential. I only partly understand the ‘why’ of it, thus far.

I’ve come from an almost opposite trajectory. I embraced the Catholic faith as an adult 30 years ago and have been very happy in it - apart from one period of several years where I strayed. I’ve been going to confession the whole time, and never had much difficulty with it. For me the main problem was an addiction which just wouldn’t go away, no matter how many times I confessed, repented, and worked on overcoming it. What I needed was a group, and, having found that, I am now beginning the serious recovery. So far, I am finding the admission of defects and wrongs is a liberating and strengthening experience, but in a slightly different way from sacramental confession. The two seem to go together.

Just returning to your original questions, I am wondering whether I misread them, and didn’t see that you were asking whether a non-Catholic AA can confess to a Catholic priest, because of the surety of confidentiality. If you google “non-catholic confession priest” you will see several answers. Of course, a non-Catholic cannot receive sacramental absolution, but whether he or she can confess as “counselling” is another matter. I personally would advise against it, but there’s no harm in phoning a parish and asking, stating the whole purpose. However, the “seal” only applies to confession, so, outside that, the priest may indeed be obliged to report any illegal action.

I can understand better now your concern about relapses when an AA must withhold their worst deeds in the 5th step. I guess that the person can only do their best within the rules, just so long as they don’t see this as an excuse to cut corners.

Don’t miss it, even if you can. The Great Reality Within/HPW awaits. (BB p55)

Thanks! I won’t This will be my first “General Confession” with a priest, where we go back over a whole life, and mention again sins which have already been absolved. This is not a common practice in the Church, but I think will have an inestimable benefit in some cases.

I’d just like to mention again that while sacramental confession has a psychological aspect, its main purpose is reconcile the sinner with God and His Church, and as such it kept quite simple and readily available. We could call this a “spiritual” experience, but in a slightly different sense to that which is understood in a 12-step program.

So true, AA is concerned with ‘causes and conditions’ - motives and much more. It remains a fascinating, Guided journey to the center of the mind.

I’m just discovering that! At the start, just being sober was sufficient reward

There was something else I objected strongly to from my Catholic beginnings - that I must be pure in thought, word and deed. I discounted ‘thought’ because I had no control over my thoughts. Turned out thought carried a great deal of shame whether wishing others ill or in fantasies. Desperation made me teachable, at last.

Again, I see some synergy between Catholicism and 12-stepping. In Catholicism we are indeed accountable for our thoughts (anger, envy, lust, etc…). Prayer, sacraments and right living are the normal way to control the root causes, but addicts recognise that our thinking will always lead us “use” eventually (“One drink will do me good”). This is the “insanity” which Bill W recognised, and the group and the 12 steps are there to keep our thinking on track by getting to the “disease”.

Most of us experience a great deal of “embarassment” confessing sinful thoughts to a priest, but, as with every other sin, the priest is there to offer mercy, not condemnation. By the way, we only need to confess the ones we’ve consented to - we don’t confess every silly thought which enters our head.

Strangely, 40 yrs later - these exchanges are bringing me back around to seeing the value in having been raised Catholic and the truths that I just couldn’t appreciate earlier in life.

That’s great! I’ve found this exchange very helpful and interesting too.

You’re very welcome in this forum.

Keep coming back.

Best wishes on your Journey,

You too!

Edmundus

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi, All ~

I have some questions about Confession but from the standpoint of AA (Step 5).

I belong to an AA group and certain things have been said recently that have raised questions.

1. Someone said they refused to hear the 5th Step of someone who did not believe in God. I found this odd as I was agnostic when I did my 5th Step, but was absolutely a believer, from experience, in the Holy Spirit upon completion. Forgiveness came from Within. Grace is truly amazing.
2. Several others have stated that they announce before hearing a 5th Step of what sins they refuse to hear, such as robberies (legal issues), sexual abuse (child or adult), murder, assault, perversion … I wonder about those who don’t ‘declare’ sins they don’t feel are forgiveable and hear confessions anyway.

My question is this: If someone hears something in a 5th Step that they can’t abide as forgiveable, does it fall under the Biblical rule of “whatever is loosed will be loosed in Heaven; whatever is retained will be retained in Heaven”?

If the person confessing is doing so in the right spirit - is their sin not forgiven because the person hearing the confession does not forgive them (whether spoken or silent)? Or is the retention of the sin held against the person hearing the confession?

Is there ever a sin a priest does not feel is forgiveable (if the person is truly sorry) except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

I ask because we’ve recently had discussions about alcoholics who are in and out of AA and treatment facilities many times. In the 12x12 (Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions), the paragraphs below speak to possible problems with the 5th Step. I understand if the person holds onto the worst monsters in the dungeon of the mind how it affects their ability to remain sober. However, I’m also wondering if those hearing 5th Steps can be causing unintended consequences from their own unforgiveness of certain sins - or by taking it upon themselves whether the person is sorry or not.

I’ve looked on the net for Spiritual Principles of Confession but have been unsuccessful where the ‘loosing and retaining’ are concerned.

I hope this question isn’t offensive in this forum. Catholics are the only ones I know who have formal Confession. And, to the best of my knowledge, Catholicism doesn’t object to AA as it is practiced.

Thank you for any guidance/guideline you may have on this topic.

Sincerely,

Jeanne

Excerpts:

12x12 (p56) - “Certain distressing or humiliating memories, we tell ourselves, ought not be shared with anyone. These will remain our secret. Not a soul must ever know. We hope they’ll go to the grave with us.”

“Some people are unable to stay sober at all; others will relapse periodically until they really clean house. Even AA old timers, sober for years, often pay dearly for skimping on this Step. They will tell how they tried to carry the load alone; how much they suffered or irritability, anxiety, remorse, and depression; and how, unconsciously seeking relief, they would sometimes accuse even their best friends of the very character defects they themselves were trying to conceal. They always discovered that relief never came by confessing the sins of other people. Everybody had to confess his own.”

I am so grateful that you are an admitted member of the 12 step religion of AA.

You have no obligation to confess to someone that will not hear your confession of sins as the steps require. You make your program. The program is not made by others. In this regard you should find someone that will hear your confession however realize that none of this is private. The 12 step religion of AA often encourages some to go confess to someone that they don’t know, someone that they will never see again, because it has nothing to do with the person that hears the confession rather it has to do with the one confessing.

With the understanding that the roots of the 12 step religion of AA resides in Protestant thought you can understand that those roots are as you know written about by the other arm of AA ie Dr. Bob. If you look at the history, ie Ebby Thatcher and others you will see the Protestant roots. Wilson studied with a priest for a short time however did not convert and in fact there were some that thought Wilson was a traitor to the cause because he spent time with “papists”, you can find this in the writings of Henrietta Sieberling.

The other thing to realize is that the 5th step is not intended to be a one time event, if you recognize that the 12 step religion of AA is founded in Methodism, ie a Method, you will discover that the steps are intended to be an ongoing, perpetual reptition of the Method as you see in Methodism. You repeatedly confess your sins until you figure out that you should stop sinning and offending. You develop a conscience.

As a Catholic you have the Sacrament of Reconcilliation that is true confession because it is more than just confessing and if you are interested you may consult the Catechism or even consider RCIA.

More importantly in the Sacrament of Reconcilliation and as a Christian you have access to all the strength you need to overcome all difficulties, ie grace, through Christ and soon you find yourself following the pillars of Faith…

You believe
You live the Sacramental life
You strive to be moral
You pray and ask for help

Only 4 steps here…and the end result has a better gurantee than the 12 step religion of AA…

I will be happy to provide more historical insight to the 12 step religion of AA and am so pleased that you vouch for this religion…

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ve read the BB a time or two. The questions I have are with the Process of Confession - how it works as far as Spiritual Principles/Rules. Not everyone in AA is affilliated with a religion - and I’m curious about the possible connection between ‘winging it’ 5th Steps and relapse.

I’ll keep Googling.

All the best,

Jeanne

Jeanne,

The important caveat to the 12 steps in the 12 step religion of AA is to understand that the steps get harder and more difficult as you proceed. To get to the 5th step, you should have a sponsor, you should have done some soul searching and made a list of those you need to make amends to and this was done by your fearless inventory in step 4…

Now, understand that the next step is to recongize and accept that you can be forgiven…and this is why you need to do a completley honest 5th step…you will hear that if you don’t do a great 4th step then your next steps will not be great and unless you build up to that 6th step, you won’t feel forgiven and if you don’t feel forgiven then of course that is where the “stinking thinking” comes in…

Also try to understand that no place in the Big Book do you find any understanding of what Character defects are. It is only in the 12 and 12 that you find the explanation. Character defects=Sin, plain and simple. So, basically what you are doing is accepting that you have sinned, and asking for those sins to be forgiven…

I have spent a great deal of time trying to understand the 12 step religion of AA and have a pretty good handle on it.

Ok…

 

[Jeanne1184]

I am so grateful that you are an admitted member of the 12 step religion of AA.

Only 4 steps here…and the end result has a better gurantee than the 12 step religion of AA…

I will be happy to provide more historical insight to the 12 step religion of AA and am so pleased that you vouch for this religion…

I have spent a great deal of time trying to understand the 12 step religion of AA and have a pretty good handle on it. Ok…

Hi, CC ~

I find it interesting that you so pointedly call AA a religion. Do you often say this in AA meetings by any chance? If so, what is the usual reaction? Are you both Catholic and ‘AlcAnon’ - do you tithe 10% to both? What makes you see it as a religion rather than an incredibly simple, effective Spiritual Path to the Holy Grail?

I, too, spent time - hours, weeks, years - contemplating ‘how and why AA works’. Nothing before had engaged my mind so completely - with such amazing insights as a reward.

Did you discover the Great Reality Within?

Maybe we should call it the M6 religion - Motel 6 - cuz we attend every day ‘to keep the Light on’.

Jeanne

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi, CC ~

I find it interesting that you so pointedly call AA a religion. Do you often say this in AA meetings by any chance? If so, what is the usual reaction? Are you both Catholic and ‘AlcAnon’ - do you tithe 10% to both? What makes you see it as a religion rather than an incredibly simple, effective Spiritual Path to the Holy Grail?

I, too, spent time - hours, weeks, years - contemplating ‘how and why AA works’. Nothing before had engaged my mind so completely - with such amazing insights as a reward.

Did you discover the Great Reality Within?

Maybe we should call it the M6 religion - Motel 6 - cuz we attend every day ‘to keep the Light on’.

Jeanne

Jeanne,

Let us start with your monikor…Religion:AA…

You put it there I did not.

 

[Jeanne1184]

Jeanne,

Let us start with your monikor…Religion:AA…

You put it there I did not.

Hmmm. I’ve corrected my profile to read “Bible”. It never occurred to me when I registered that my reponse (“AA”) in that block would be misunderstood - or even ever looked at. And certainly not accepted as a ‘religion’ by anyone who has affiliation with AA - it would have made more sense if you questioned me calling AA a religion than to keep repeating such a veiw.

Which makes me wonder, now, whether you ‘study the 12 Steps’ as a participant or as a spectator. You shared a couple of other views about AA that are not common to mainstream AA. Such as there is good reason not to reduce ‘shortcomings’ and ‘character defects’ to sins in an AA meeting or with the newly sober. The wording in the BB is often subtle, for good reason. Some, like me, even know the BB and 12x12 to be Inspired.

I’m a 14-yr recovered alcoholic and recovering soul from spiritual bankruptcy/deficiency, by the Grace of God. (Spiritual bankruptcy: “heart deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.” )

Still working, still fascinated, and ever grateful to the Holy Spirit,

Jeanne

 

[CopticChristian]

Hmmm. I’ve corrected my profile to read “Bible”. It never occurred to me when I registered that my reponse (“AA”) in that block would be misunderstood - or even ever looked at. And certainly not accepted as a ‘religion’ by anyone who has affiliation with AA - it would have made more sense if you questioned me calling AA a religion than to keep repeating such a veiw.

Which makes me wonder, now, whether you ‘study the 12 Steps’ as a participant or as a spectator. You shared a couple of other views about AA that are not common to mainstream AA. The wording in the BB is often subtle, for good reason. Some, like me, even know the BB and 12x12 to be Inspired.

I’m a 14-yr recovered alcoholic and recovering soul from spiritual bankruptcy/deficiency, by the Grace of God. (Spiritual bankruptcy: “heart deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.” )

Still working, still fascinated, and ever grateful to the Holy Spirit,

Jeanne

Jeanne,

What you are suggesting is not telling the truth or omitting the truth…If you find it difficult to accept that the Character defects are sins…I did not make this up and others find the same to be true…

Such as there is good reason not to reduce ‘shortcomings’ and ‘character defects’ to sins in an AA meeting or with the newly sober.

recoverytable.blogspot.com/2011/06/character-defects-seven-deadly-sins.html

Character Defects: “The Seven Deadly Sins”
As at best an agnostic by natural temperament, I was taken aback (as I suppose many others were) when I first read the characterization of my defects of character as “sins” in Step Four of The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. Not surprisingly, of course, my objection was one that had been anticipated by Bill W.

Try finding an explanation of what character defects are in the Big Book and you will spend an eternity looking but not finding.

Does it not strike you as odd that what these so called “character defects” are since you need to ask God to remove them are not explained in the Big Book. It is only in the Twelve and Twelve that this is explained.

Why the clandestine approach?

It would appear to me that all Christian thought approaches the notion that Jesus died for us because of sin and we sin. Sin is a central focus of most Christian thought and is right up front.

Most evangelical Protestants have a so called sinner’s prayer. AA has a sinner’s prayer. Yet is clear in most evangelical Protestants approach that you don’t have character defects, you have a sin nature. Sin nature-Character defects. Why not just call it what it is. I see no place in the Bible that anyone’s disposition makes them immune from confronting their sin.

The Doctor’s opinion is oriented towards the sick soul. What is missing from the Big Book concerning Dr. Silkworth’s opinion is that he stated clearly that the only way to get sober is to find Christ, the great physician.

If you then notice that there is a Chapter in the Big Book “To the Agnostic”, a section on the varieties of Religous Experience, that incidentally is actually written about Protestants varied experiences, with a letter from a Priest, not knowing what he read or saw offered as an endorsement, noting that there is no Impramatur and then an endorsement from an Anglican clergy. Anglicans have no need to ascribe to this endorsement as Anglican’s are not bound by one clergy person’s opinion. Put all this together with Bill Wilson the salesman and you have a pretty good job of selling the message…religion.

Why not just tell people up front what they are getting in to. There is no practice of medicine where the offending agent is hidden from the patient and in particular not suggesting that taking into account their disposition.

I cannot agree with this approach.