Confession - the Priesthood - "We're all priests"

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havemercy

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Peter:
In Christ all Christians can forgive in His name - you don’t need to be a priest to have that authority - you get it by being in Christ.
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havemercy:
This is kind of irritating, because I don’t know if you’re being serious with this response. Sacramental confession is serious business. It is not akin to my pardoning you for kicking me in the crotch. I may forgive you, but your sin against me hasn’t been objectively loosed from you.

When you confess your sins to a priest, he hears your confession with the ears of Christ. Then he blesses you with the hand of Christ and forgives your sins against God and neighbor, blotting them out, in the person of Christ. Absolving you of your sins in the name of Christ, your sins are no more. You are then expected to, with the consequence of having your sins retained, carry out the acts of penance assigned to you, with the intention of amending your life out of love for God.

This is what absolution sounds like in the latin/roman rite:
“God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son
has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins;
through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”

Sacramental confession is serious business, and I highly recommend it. Protestants seem to be getting with the program though, as many are now making it a practice to find someone to confide in and confess their sins, and stupidities to. They see that indeed, this is something practical. Still though, this would be merely remedial, lacking sacramental grace and certainty of sins forgiven by God.
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Blitzer:
Tony, you’re right, only a priest can perform this function, but, then, all Christians are priests. We all go boldly before the Father with our petitions and our petition for forgiveness is no difference.

So that is one of the problems with Catholic “theology” - Catholics partition the church into two kinds of Christians - there are the complete Christians (clergy) who have all the powers of Christianity, and there are the Partial Christians (laity) who look to their “priests” to do all the high level stuff. It’s sorta like in paganism where there is a set-aside hierarchy of priests who have to go to their gods for the masses or perhaps Israel before the coming of the Holy Spirit.
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This might sound a little cowardly, but how do I respond to this last quote (the previous two were considered for context)? He seems to think that now that the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, that we no longer need priests like those of the old testament, but rather, the HS makes us all priests. I know he has the Letter to the Hebrews in mind (the “all priests” bit), but what does the Church teach about the universal priesthood and the priesthood of holy orders? How do they differ, and how are they the same? Moreover, how do I communicate this to him?

Thank you a lot! Goodnight,
Tony

Sidenote:
I just thought I’d remark at how life is so stock full of God’s reminders that he’s there, taking care of you. Just a few days ago I crossed myself with holy water. I then began to ponder on what on earth the universal priesthood meant, and what kind of blessing I could give to others? Could I make the sign of the cross over a little puppy as Saint Francis might have? Could I possible hear the troubles of a friend and advise him as some priests have done for me? Then all of a sudden (more like a couple of days) I’m faced with having to look for answers to my questions, not just because of my own curiosities, but because I need to out of necessity (its my duty to defend my Catholic faith)!

Things like this have always been occuring, and I never tire of it. 👍
 
Jn.20:22-23 states: "And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ““Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.””

The audience at the time was the Apostles. This power was given them to forgive and retain sins. One of the great things about the Catholic Church is the support of history. What did christians do and how was christianity practiced. Proof of the role of priest and all seven sacraments is historically verifiable. Our Lord promised that the holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. Remember such historical evidence to include tracing our lineage all the way to Christ can only be found with the Catholic Church. We put forth our position and leave the rest for God’s grace.
 
Furthermore, there was always a priesthood for the Jews, a hierarchy. Look at how things were set up with Moses in the Old Testament. Jesus didn’t come to abolish the old law, but fulfill it.
If everyone has the same authority, then everyone can bind and loose whatever they want on earth. There need not be any consistency, we can all come to God any way we want.
Christ, in His infinite intelligence, set up the hierarchy because we need ONE direction, not many. That’s why so many of Paul’s epistles deal with trying to get fledgling churches on the same page.
You have to logically conclude that if Jesus came to redeem man, He set up one Church to get us there. If there were many ways we could come to Him, why is there a judgment? We’re all saved already! And if you read the early Church Fathers and look for a Church that does things the way they did, you’ll see the Catholic Church is the one that preserved Apostolic tradition. Our confession is different; we no longer publicly proclaim our sins before the entire congregation, but then again, neither does your friend above. People who don’t want to confess to another “human being” have a real pride problem. They can’t confront their own sins. I doubt very much that your friend takes time at the end of his busy day to confess to God all that he did wrong and ask forgiveness. And even when you do it in private like that, it is nowhere near as satisfying as when you receive absolution from a representative of the Church.
I don’t have any good arguments, but the burden of proof is on your friend, since public confession has always been a part of Christianity.
 
In James 5:14-15 it says that if someone is sick the presbyters (priests) of the church are to be called and it is through their (the priests’) prayer of faith that the healing of his sickness and the forgiveness of his sins will to be obtained.
 
Havemercy,

I don’t mean to sound like a grinch, but don’t you think the picture in your signature is a little bit disrespectful?
 
Thanks everyone. I eagerly await more help, though. I’m looking for some formal Church documents or writings of esteemed Churchmen (Newman comes to mind) and saints.

Blitzer seems to think that he’s got it, and I think that if I run the “Jesus came to fulfill the law” bit, he’s going to suggest that indeed the law has been fulfilled, except in each person by the Holy Spirit – that in fact the fact that not all the Jews were priests was completed in making everyone priests in the New Covenant.

Now, I realize that when Christ breathed the HS on his Apostles in the Gospel of John, he didn’t breathe it on all of his followers. I see this as evidence that not all followers of Christ share in the divine office of “apostleship” as priests, bishops, cardinals and popes do. Although, to a certain extent we take part in the universal priesthood, but we are not priests like those who’ve taken the vows of holy orders.

I do not know how to think of this universal priesthood. I don’t know what the Church has taught about it throughout the centuries up until today. Help!
AussieCatholic said:
Havemercy,

I don’t mean to sound like a grinch, but don’t you think the picture in your signature is a little bit disrespectful?
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No, I don’t think it is. I haven’t been warned by any of the moderators about it. If you’re offended by it, l’ll gladly remove it though. 🙂 Though, you should probably let Benedict know that if he is to appear in public, that he should refrain from resembling Santa Claus. It’s not like I made any great alterations to his garb.
 
As a previous poster mentioned, there was a “priesthood of the people” in the Old Testament, too (Ex. 19:3-6).

Yet, there was still a separate, Levitical priesthood, which was set apart from that priesthood of the people.

And this is why it is so funny that when people say we don’t need ordained priests because we are “all priests”, they are echoing the words we find in Numbers 16:3: “You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them; why when do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?”

Do they not realize, not only how beautifully our Catholic understanding of the priesthood fulfills the foreshadowings of the Old Testament *and *how much they sound like the defiant Israelites in this passage from Numbers?
 
awfulthings9 said:
As a previous poster mentioned, there was a “priesthood of the people” in the Old Testament, too (Ex. 19:3-6).

Yet, there was still a separate, Levitical priesthood, which was set apart from that priesthood of the people.

And this is why it is so funny that when people say we don’t need ordained priests because we are “all priests”, they are echoing the words we find in Numbers 16:3: “You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them; why when do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?”

Do they not realize, not only how beautifully our Catholic understanding of the priesthood fulfills the foreshadowings of the Old Testament *and *how much they sound like the defiant Israelites in this passage from Numbers?
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The Numbers 16:3 passage refers to Korah’s rebellion. In Jude 1:8, 11, St. Jude condemns certain Christians who “reject authority” and are “perishing in Korah’s rebellion.” Since Korah’s rebellion involved the rejection of authority and an attempt by some Levites to usurp the perogatives of the Aaronic ministerial priesthood, it would seem that St. Jude refers to a similar rejection of authority and an attempt by some Christians to usurp the perogatives of a Christian ministerial priesthood.
 
havemercy said:
I know he has the Letter to the Hebrews in mind (the “all priests” bit), but what does the Church teach about the universal priesthood and the priesthood of holy orders? How do they differ, and how are they the same? Moreover, how do I communicate this to him?
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Tony,

This is a great question. Many people will either try and minimize the priesthood of the laity (insisting that the ordained priesthood is intrinsically better), or minimize the ordained priesthood (in an attempt to "advance the laity). The truth is that both the universal priesthood and the ordained priesthood are equal in dignity, yet configured for differing types of service. Both are rooted in the Priesthood of Christ Himself.

So, to start answering your question, the common and ordained priesthoods are, from the very start, equal in dignity–because that dignity has its roots in Baptism:
In the fullness of this title and on equal par with all other members of the Church, the lay faithful are called to holiness: “All the faithful of Christ of whatever rank or status are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity”(43). (Christifidelis Laici)
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It is because of our baptism that we, as laypeople, share in the priestly, prophetic, and royal mission of Christ. So, we share in the priesthood of Christ in a very real sense. Now, it has been said (and taught) that the way the ordained share in the priesthood is different not only in degree but in essence. This is true. However, this does not make one better than the other.

In fact, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had this to say regarding the common and ordained priesthoods:
Thus the essential difference between the common priesthood of the faithful and the ministerial priesthood is not found in the priesthood of Christ, which remains forever one and indivisible, nor in the sanctity to which all of the faithful are called: “Indeed the ministerial priesthood does not of itself signify a greater degree of holiness with regard to the common priesthood of the faithful; through it, Christ gives to priests, in the Spirit, a particular gift so that they can help the People of God to exercise faithfully and fully the common priesthood which it has received”.(On Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priests)
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The essential difference between the common and ministerial priesthoods is in the mode of service. The ordained priesthood is configured to the service of the common priesthood so that the lay faithful can accomplish the mission of the Church in the world.

The two priesthoods are complimentary but essentially different. Equal in dignity, yet configured for different purposes. The ordained teach, sanctify, and govern the community of the faithful, and the laity participate in the priestly, prophetic, and royal offices of Christ for the sake of the world.

In fact, the laity are called to “consecrate the world to God . . .and restore to creation all of its original dignity” (Christifidelis Laici). The mission of the common priesthood is particular to the world and because of it, the Church teaches that there is a particular character to the common priesthood:
In particular the sharing of the *lay faithful *has its own manner of realization and function, which, according to the Council, is “properly and particularly” theirs. Such a manner is designated with the expression “secular character”(Christifidelis Laici).
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The secular world is, therefore, the particular jurisdiction of the laity (the common priesthood) living as the Church in the midst of the world. While the ordained priesthood exercises its office within the Christian community.

Does that make sense?

Keith
 
I don’t have much to add with the “universal priesthood” discussion, but I wanted to comment on the Benedict picture. I thought it was absolutely hilarious and enjoyed the laugh I got from it.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Mark
 
AussieCatholic said:
Havemercy,

I don’t mean to sound like a grinch, but don’t you think the picture in your signature is a little bit disrespectful?
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Maybe what the people who who aren’t offended know, but perhaps you don’t, is that that’s one of the Pope’s traditional winter outfits.

I know, I thought he looked like Santa Claus the first time I saw a picture of him in it as well 🙂

Jeremy
 
MStreeter said:
I don’t have much to add with the “universal priesthood” discussion, but I wanted to comment on the Benedict picture. I thought it was absolutely hilarious and enjoyed the laugh I got from it.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Mark
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I keep seeing comments on Havemercy’s Benedict picture. I can’t see it:nerd:
 
jemfinch said:
Maybe what the people who who aren’t offended know, but perhaps you don’t, is that that’s one of the Pope’s traditional winter outfits.

I know, I thought he looked like Santa Claus the first time I saw a picture of him in it as well 🙂

Jeremy
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Wow, you’re kidding!?!?

My apologies to the OP
 
jemfinch said:
Maybe what the people who who aren’t offended know, but perhaps you don’t, is that that’s one of the Pope’s traditional winter outfits.

I know, I thought he looked like Santa Claus the first time I saw a picture of him in it as well 🙂

Jeremy
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Wow, you’re kidding!?!?

My apologies to the OP. I thought he’d photoshopped that pic.
 
St. Paul teaches that we, the Church, are one inter-dependent body (see 1 Cor. 12). Our sins thus impact the entire Church, spiritually and temporally. The Apostle tells us that a Christian who unites himself to a prostitute unites the entire Church of Christ to the prostitute; thus, the entire Church becomes involved, in a spiritual sense, in the mortal sin of the individual (1 Cor. 6:15-17). When we sin we have committed an offense against ourselves and Christ, but also in a sense against the one body that is the Church. Christ asks that we confess our sins to a priest to ensure that we are accountable to the spiritual fathers in whose care we have been placed and that we are humbled by our failings. Christ has chosen to work through human instruments. In the past God worked through his prophets, in the New Covenant he worked through the instrumentation of the Apostles. To the Apostles Christ entrusted the ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18), the power to forgive or retain sins in Christ’s name by the power of the Spirit (John 20:22-23), and the power to bind and to loose (Matthew 18:18).
In Christ,
Tyler

See also: scripturecatholic.com/confession.html
 
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