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phil8888
Guest
Just curious. Imagine a guy who is not a priest imitates one, and someone goes to confession to him believing he is real. Are their sins absolved?
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TheDoctor
Guest
No, I do not think they are. There is no absolution without a priest. Their sins will be absolved at their next confession with a real priest though.
If they truly think he is a real priest, God will hopefully choose to forgive their sins since they made the sincere effort to confess.
If they truly think he is a real priest, God will hopefully choose to forgive their sins since they made the sincere effort to confess.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I think this is right. What you do in good faith may be fully hoped to be acceptable to God as much as if it were fully valid, but when you know better, then you are bound to do better.
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VociMike
Guest
It is inconceivable to me that those sins were not forgiven, considering the intent of the one confessing.
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VetA
Guest
the priest does not forgive the sins, God, acting through the priest, does.
that being said, i would think that those sins confessed to a poser-priest would be forgiven by God.
also the poser-priest would be in a severe state of mortal sin.
that being said, i would think that those sins confessed to a poser-priest would be forgiven by God.
also the poser-priest would be in a severe state of mortal sin.
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Bualele
Guest
If the persom believes that the priest is real then it is really in God’s hands. I think God might forgive him
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H_Opey
Guest
For valid absolution, it would need to be a validly ordained priest.
If they confessed mortal sins, they would be to be confessed to a valid priest I am pretty sure.
From the compendium:
302. What are the essential elements of the sacrament of Reconciliation?
1440-1449
The essential elements are two: the acts of the penitent who comes to repentance through the action of the Holy Spirit, and the absolution of the** priest** who in the name of Christ grants forgiveness and determines the ways of making satisfaction.
If they confessed mortal sins, they would be to be confessed to a valid priest I am pretty sure.
From the compendium:
302. What are the essential elements of the sacrament of Reconciliation?
1440-1449
The essential elements are two: the acts of the penitent who comes to repentance through the action of the Holy Spirit, and the absolution of the** priest** who in the name of Christ grants forgiveness and determines the ways of making satisfaction.
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revert_jen
Guest
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)
As another poster pointed out, the sins you confessed in the invalid confession will be automatically forgiven at your next valid confession. So, it only really matters if the invalid confession was your last confession before death, and either you didn’t go to Mass after that or you had mortal sins. In that case I think we can quite safely trust to God’s mercy.
But as far as the sacrament is concerned, if there was no priest, there was no sacrament. If you had mortal sins, then technically you are still in a state of mortal sin until your next confession, although if you (e.g.) receive the Eucharist it is not a further sin since you don’t know you are still in mortal sin, and it is not possible to sin without knowing about it.
What it comes down to is either the sacrament of penance matters, or it doesn’t. If it matters, then there has to be some difference between having a valid sacrament and not having it. If there isn’t, then we are Protestants. If a real sacrament can effect a real change, then it matters whether the sacrament occurred. If it can’t effect a real change, then nearly 2000 years of teaching on the Real Presence in the Eucharist is wrong.
For example, if a fake priest performs a pseudo-Mass, and someone attends it in good faith, they have not actually fulfilled their Mass obligation and have not received Jesus in the Eucharist. However, missing Mass that Sunday is not a sin of course, because they didn’t know about it. But their good faith cannot confect the Eucharist, and the fact that it is not their fault can’t change that.
Note that this only refers to if it is a fake priest. A laicized priest can be the minister of valid sacraments–it’s not allowed, but the sacraments take place.
–Jen
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Wowbagger
Guest
They are not absolved, but if you die before your next confession believing in good faith that they are absolved, your sins would nevertheless be forgiven as long as you were truly sorry for them. (This falls under CCC 1484, I believe.) (See also here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=14932)
Incidentally, I believe “pretending to be a priest in confession” is one of the very few ways to pick up a latae sententiae excommunication.
Incidentally, I believe “pretending to be a priest in confession” is one of the very few ways to pick up a latae sententiae excommunication.
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Victorious
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The poser-priest is guilty of the crime of simulating a Sacrament, which, if memory serves, carries the penalty of excommunication. Also, he deserves to be hung up by his thumbs.
I think God forgives the person who goes to such a “priest” in good faith; but as for receiving the Sacrament of Penance, he has clearly not received it. I would think that if the person afterward discovered the deceit, he would have to confess to a real priest any mortal sins he confessed to the fake priest.
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Victorious
Guest
Yes; but you can’t knowingly go to a laicized priest for the Sacraments, except in danger of death. If you’re bleeding to death on the street, say, a laicized priest can validly and licitly hear your confession and give you last rites.
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choy
Guest
two things
the effect of the Sacrament of Holy Orders is once a priest, always a priest. laicized priests are still priests, only barred by the Church from performing their duties, but still are valid priests with the authority given to them. sacraments from them are illicit, and probably scandalous, but otherwise valid
now, if a person is not a priest at all, then you don’t receive the Sacrament of Penance. and as mentioned in this thread, we leave it to God’s good graces and infinite mercy to know that in your heart you made a sincere confession to a person you sincerely recognized as a priest, and to forgive you your sins. however, the other effects of the Sacrament does not effect on you (repairing your ties with the Church)
the effect of the Sacrament of Holy Orders is once a priest, always a priest. laicized priests are still priests, only barred by the Church from performing their duties, but still are valid priests with the authority given to them. sacraments from them are illicit, and probably scandalous, but otherwise valid
now, if a person is not a priest at all, then you don’t receive the Sacrament of Penance. and as mentioned in this thread, we leave it to God’s good graces and infinite mercy to know that in your heart you made a sincere confession to a person you sincerely recognized as a priest, and to forgive you your sins. however, the other effects of the Sacrament does not effect on you (repairing your ties with the Church)
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MarkThompson
Guest
This is not true of confession/absolution, to name one. Absolution from a priest without faculties is invalid, not merely illicit, except for a penitent in danger of death.
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choy
Guest
CCC
1583 It is true that someone validly ordained can, for grave reasons, be discharged from the obligations and functions linked to ordination, or can be forbidden to exercise them; but he cannot become a layman again in the strict sense,75 because the character imprinted by ordination is for ever. The vocation and mission received on the day of his ordination mark him permanently.
1584 **Since it is ultimately Christ who acts and effects salvation through the ordained minister, the unworthiness of the latter does not prevent Christ from acting.**76 St. Augustine states this forcefully:
As for the proud minister, he is to be ranked with the devil. Christ’s gift is not thereby profaned: what flows through him keeps its purity, and what passes through him remains dear and reaches the fertile earth. . . . The spiritual power of the sacrament is indeed comparable to light: those to be enlightened receive it in its purity, and if it should pass through defiled beings, it is not itself defiled.77
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MarkThompson
Guest
I’ll see your general Catechism paragraphs about the priestly character, and raise you this from the Code of Canon Law:
Can. 966 §1. The valid absolution of sins requires that the minister have, in addition to the power of orders, the faculty of exercising it for the faithful to whom he imparts absolution.
Edited to add: also–
Can. 976 Even though a priest lacks the faculty to hear confessions, he absolves validly and licitly any penitents whatsoever in danger of death from any censures and sins, even if an approved priest is present.
Hopefully this makes it clear.
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mdgspencer
Guest
If we confess to a fake priest, our sins may be forgiven simply because of our repentance. However, it would not be the sacrament of confession. For one thing, during the sacrament of confession, the person receives special graces. The person can receive the grace not to do the sin again through the power of this sacrament. If there were not something special about the sacrament of confession, why have this sacrament at all?
Of course a fake priest also could give advice contrary to the Catholic faith to someone who trusts in him. Who knows what he would say to the person? He could be anyone. I have just moved and in my present parish, someone showed up a year ago and convincingly claimed to be a priest. After a month the parish got suspicious because he was taking time to try to raise a good deal of money for his supposed projects, and they learned that he was not a priest at all, and was put into the city jail. According to the last information I got, he was a Protestant.
Only if the local bishop has given the person faculties to say confession, is it valid. In my diocese a “priest” from a schismatic group set up a parish in the diocese and offered confessions. The diocese warned that confession from this “priest” is invalid, not a sacrament at all.
Of course a fake priest also could give advice contrary to the Catholic faith to someone who trusts in him. Who knows what he would say to the person? He could be anyone. I have just moved and in my present parish, someone showed up a year ago and convincingly claimed to be a priest. After a month the parish got suspicious because he was taking time to try to raise a good deal of money for his supposed projects, and they learned that he was not a priest at all, and was put into the city jail. According to the last information I got, he was a Protestant.
Only if the local bishop has given the person faculties to say confession, is it valid. In my diocese a “priest” from a schismatic group set up a parish in the diocese and offered confessions. The diocese warned that confession from this “priest” is invalid, not a sacrament at all.
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EasterJoy
Guest
It is not the normal situation, where the graces are promised to those who are properly disposed, but we also may not limit what it pleases the Holy Spirit to do. Therefore, it is possible that a penitent who* unknowingly* confesses to a person only posing as a priest might recieve the same graces as if the sins had been confessed to the Cure of Ars himself. It all depends upon what it pleases God to do.
If a penitent defiantly chooses his own sense of things over the directions of his bishop, that is another thing altogether. It might still please God to give him graces, for God is always generous and merciful to us far beyond what we ever deserve, but that is much less the way to bet. Such a choice is always to be discouraged, regardless of what a penitent may believe his past experience in the matter to have been.
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FrDavid96
Guest
No. There is no absolution.
In order for absolution to happen, the priest must both be a validly-ordained priest and have the faculties to absolve.
In the case of a validly-ordained priest who does not have faculties (laicized, suspended, excommunicated, or ordained in a schismatic group, etc.), the Church gives him faculties in a situation of dander-of-death; this granting of faculties is done by/through canon law. Outside of danger-of-death (or other extreme situation) that same priest cannot absolve because he lacks faculties.
At the same time, a person who unknowingly approaches someone who is not a priest-with-faculties and attempts to celebrate confession, such a person would be forgiven his sins by God (based on contrition and a desire to be forgiven & absolved), but absolution as such cannot occur.
Absolution is a juridic act of the Church which reconciles the sinner to the Church (as far as the sinner is in need). That’s why absolution requires that the priest have faculties; or to put that another way, to be a legitimate representative/minister of the Church.
Absolution and forgiveness are not the same thing, even though Catholics are often in the habit of confusing or mixing the two words.
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phil8888
Guest
Very interesting answer. Thank you!
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Newbie2
Guest
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