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sadie2723
Guest
valient Lucy:
I agree!
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sadie2723
Guest
Emad,
Is this starting to make any sense to you?
Just thought that I would see.
Thanks.
Is this starting to make any sense to you?
Just thought that I would see.
Thanks.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
I would also refer to references in the bible that God uses known murderers for his work:
Moses, David, Solomon, Paul.
Paul’s mission of imprisoning and putting to death Christians went on for several years. Paul was on the verge of exterminating Christianity and Jesus had to step in and intercede.
Moses, David, Solomon, Paul.
Paul’s mission of imprisoning and putting to death Christians went on for several years. Paul was on the verge of exterminating Christianity and Jesus had to step in and intercede.
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MariaG
Guest
Excellent examples:thumbsup:
And as Valient Lucy so succintly put
Certainly one prays (or should pray) that those who God puts in authority over us start to model God’s own Holiness, but clearly God has used those who have been less than holy in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
God Bless,
Maria
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Emad
Guest
valient Lucy:
Would you really feel comfortable confessing to someone who does evil things, such as steal, lie, cheat, fornicate, molest children etc? Does it seem like the right thing to do? I know it would be easy to say yes to me online, but if it really came down to it, would you do it? Let’s say it’s Sat night and you saw him with prostitutes and sniffing cocaine, would you feel right confessing to him the next day?
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Emad
Guest
I don’t believe in Paul, I also don’t believe Moses David or Solomon killed anyone on purpose or unjustly. Your view of Prophets compared to ours is a totally different issue, I might open a thread about it some other time.
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Emad
Guest
It was making sense when I thought confession had nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins, but not anymore. I wish I could say it does, but it doesn’t. Is there anywhere in the Bible that says if you don’t confess you will go to hell or that you can’t be forgiven?
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Irene
Guest
Emad,
Something just occurred to me. Are you by any chance a Shi’a Muslim? If you are, that might be the source of your confusion about the moral authority of priests.
From what I know of Shi’ism, there is a strong tradition of identifying with a particular individual cleric. The believer chooses which cleric to follow, and then relies on them exclusively (along with the basic sources like the Qur’an and hadith) for spiritual guidance. The believer judges not only the writings of the cleric they are considering but also his moral character, because he is considered to be incorruptable and *infallible. *
Catholics would say that these qualities come from the Holy Spirit, who works through the priest and is the One forgiving sins. It is therefore not necessary for priests to be shining examples of morality, though it would be nice.
Something just occurred to me. Are you by any chance a Shi’a Muslim? If you are, that might be the source of your confusion about the moral authority of priests.
From what I know of Shi’ism, there is a strong tradition of identifying with a particular individual cleric. The believer chooses which cleric to follow, and then relies on them exclusively (along with the basic sources like the Qur’an and hadith) for spiritual guidance. The believer judges not only the writings of the cleric they are considering but also his moral character, because he is considered to be incorruptable and *infallible. *
Catholics would say that these qualities come from the Holy Spirit, who works through the priest and is the One forgiving sins. It is therefore not necessary for priests to be shining examples of morality, though it would be nice.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
In our Parish, we have a reconciliation chapel. The room has a door and a glass screen facing out towards the sanctuary. The door can close to give the penitent privacy, but at all times is the penitent visible to the people in the sanctuary. It’s been like this for years, but it does offer some protection against pedophiles.
Not all priests are pedophiles though. But I’m assuming you know that.
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LilyM
Guest
valient Lucy:
What an excellent idea - sad that something like this would be necessary though
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valient_Lucy
Guest
Well on the one hand, he won’t be too harsh with me when I sniiff cocaine on the weekends…
Obviously, I would rather seek out a priest who is holy, because I would want good spiritual advice. I would also find another place to attend Mass, if this happened. In addition, I would report his behavior to the local bishop. However, I would do this because I dissaproved of the priest’s hypocracy, NOT because I believed that he could not perform the Sacraments. In fact, if the next day I was in a terrible car accident, and he was nearby on the street, I would ask him for the Sacraments.
Catholics believe in ordination, that the priests recieve their sacramental powers from God, who acts through the bishop. The priest does not EARN the sacrament of Ordination. It is a gift from God, and can never be taken away, no matter what. Once a person is made a priest, they will remain a priest forever, even if they leave the priesthood and start a brothel. They still remain a priest. In other words, I don’t need to ask the priest to tell me if he has sinned lately before I confess to him. His power comes from God, not from himself and his own holiness. A priest does not earn the right to recieve ordination, or to perform the Sacraments.
Think of it this way. Did Muhammed EARN the RIGHT to recieve the Koran? Did the Arab people EARN the RIGHT to recieve the final revelation from Allah? After all, why pick an illiterate man to recieve the Koran? Why reveal Himself to a society of polytheists, who did not believe in one true God? While I can’t be absolutly sure of your answer, I suspect that you believe that the Koran is a Gift from Allah, and that man did nothing to earn God’s revelation, and that Allah gave the Koran to Muhammed, and to the Muslim people, because it was His Will, because it pleased Him, and to demonstrate His Glory. (If I’m wrong just let me know.)
In answer to your question, in ordinary circumstances, I would confess to another priest, and I would report the priests behavior to the bishop so that proper disciplinary measures could be taken. If I was suddenly taken ill, or I was in a terrible car accident, and I saw that priest nearby, I would ask him for the Sacraments, confident that God can work through even the most unworthy vessels.
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murtad
Guest
If you do not understand “confession”, then you also do not understand what is a “church”, “deacon”, “priest” and “bishop”. I will explain briefly comparing it to Islamic terminology.
Church = community, congregation or assembly (in English)
= Ummah or Jamaah (in Malay and Arabic)
Deacon = Ulama (in Malay and Arabic)
Priest = elder (in English)
= equivalent to Syariah Court Judge (Hakam)
Bishop = Mufti or Ayatollah
= Pope Benedict XVI, Bishop of Rome
= Muphy Pakiam, Bishop of Malaysia
We, Christians who are members of the Catholic Church do not confess our sins to the priest but to God in witness of the priest who will prescribe earthly punishment. Compare this to Syariah Court judges in Islam.
If a priest engages in such crimes, he can be ex-communicated meaning “expelled from the Ummah/Church” though a lesser penalty of demotion to an ordinary member can be imposed. Its compulsory for a Christian to confess to a priest, just as a Muslim in Malaysia has to confess to a Syariah Court Judge who has power to forgive or not.
If you the priest you confess to is a criminal, why did you not report him to your diocese Bishop so appropriate action could be taken? Why did you not sue him in a Church court, up until the Supreme Court of the Catholic Church? Here in Malaysia, we have many Syariah Court judges who are homosexuals and adulterers, yet Muslims confess to them and they have power to forgive or impose convictions on Muslims who are homosexuals and adulterers. Why is this?
Emad, I will ask you a question.
Suppose you were a Muslim living in Malaysia who was arrested for zina. You refuse to confess to a Syariah court judge (who you suspect to be a homosexual), what will the judge do to you? He has power to pardon the sins committed you (or other Muslims in Malaysia) and if he thinks you confess it sincerely, he therefore can release you without criminal conviction. Otherwise, he can order you to be imprisoned up to 3 years, or whipped up to 6 times, or fined not more than RM5000 or a combination of all three. I await you to answer my question.
As for whether those Christians who do not confess their sin to God in witness of their priest “go to hell”, I will explain. Now, how do we know a so-called Christian confess his crimes to God, if the priest did not witness him? In fact, by refusing to confess in witness of a priest, the so-called Christians shows he do not like community life but prefers individualism. Thus, he rejects the Church and he is not much differ from a Muslim who rejects the Ummah.
Emad, I ask you yet another question:
Can you be a Muslim if you refuse to be a part of the Ummah? If you answer yes, then you have given us an dishonest answer. So, nobody can be Christian if he is not a member of the Church. Even if such a person says he is a Christian - that is his tongue lying. He is a disbeliever and his abode is hell fire.
As for your question, whether those Christians who are part of the Protestant Church and Greek Orthodox Church “go to hell”, this question is very hard to answer for both these two churches have their own methods of confessions.
Greek Orthodox Church has a confessional system just like the Roman Catholic Church, while Protestant Church (such as Anglikans and Lutherans) also believe confessing our sins to a priest is not wrong, even encouraged so as to create loving community but they do not make it mandatory as Protestant theology is based on personal relationship between individual and God, and so confession of sins must be to Lord Jesus.
When a criminal confesses to God, he will forgive provided the community forgives us and the priest represents the local community, so confession must be to God, in witness of priest who will decide whether to forgive or impose a penalty on the criminal (that is usually fines in Protestant-majority America but in Catholic-majority Philippines whipping, while in the Roman Empire priests could even impose death penalty).
Just my 2 cents. Feel free to tell me your reactions to my comments.
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Emad
Guest
valient Lucy:
My question is not whether they earned their positions, it is how did God choose them? Why would God choose such an evil person to represent him? If you have a business you want the best representatives, if you run a school you want the best teachers, why would God pick evil people to represent Him? Muslims believe God chose the Prophets because they were and are the best of people.Well on the one hand, he won’t be too harsh with me when I sniiff cocaine on the weekends…
Obviously, I would rather seek out a priest who is holy, because I would want good spiritual advice. I would also find another place to attend Mass, if this happened. In addition, I would report his behavior to the local bishop. However, I would do this because I dissaproved of the priest’s hypocracy, NOT because I believed that he could not perform the Sacraments. In fact, if the next day I was in a terrible car accident, and he was nearby on the street, I would ask him for the Sacraments.
Catholics believe in ordination, that the priests recieve their sacramental powers from God, who acts through the bishop. The priest does not EARN the sacrament of Ordination. It is a gift from God, and can never be taken away, no matter what. Once a person is made a priest, they will remain a priest forever, even if they leave the priesthood and start a brothel. They still remain a priest. In other words, I don’t need to ask the priest to tell me if he has sinned lately before I confess to him. His power comes from God, not from himself and his own holiness. A priest does not earn the right to recieve ordination, or to perform the Sacraments.
Think of it this way. Did Muhammed EARN the RIGHT to recieve the Koran? Did the Arab people EARN the RIGHT to recieve the final revelation from Allah? After all, why pick an illiterate man to recieve the Koran? Why reveal Himself to a society of polytheists, who did not believe in one true God? While I can’t be absolutly sure of your answer, I suspect that you believe that the Koran is a Gift from Allah, and that man did nothing to earn God’s revelation, and that Allah gave the Koran to Muhammed, and to the Muslim people, because it was His Will, because it pleased Him, and to demonstrate His Glory. (If I’m wrong just let me know.)
In answer to your question, in ordinary circumstances, I would confess to another priest, and I would report the priests behavior to the bishop so that proper disciplinary measures could be taken. If I was suddenly taken ill, or I was in a terrible car accident, and I saw that priest nearby, I would ask him for the Sacraments, confident that God can work through even the most unworthy vessels.
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Emad
Guest
I am not Shia, I am sunni.
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Irene
Guest
Ok. I was just trying to guess a possible explanation.
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valient_Lucy
Guest
Catholics believe that God gives people a vocation to be a Catholic Priest. As for why would God choose an evil person to be a priest, remember Catholics believe in free will. People can choose to obey God or to reject God. Catholics also do not believe that just because a person chooses to obey God today means that they will always choose to obey God in the future. It is possible for a person, even a priest of bishop, to sin and turn from God. After all, Judas betrayed Jesus, and he was one of the 12 apostles.
Perhaps the person was mistaken in His vocation.
Perhaps the person did indeed have a vocation to the priesthood, and but had fallen into temptation, and turned from God. As to why God would choose someone so evil to represent Him, perhaps God wanted to use the priest as an example of human failings, and show that no one, not even priests, are safe from sin or temptation. Perhaps God intends to use his calling as a priest to lead him from sin. Perhaps he also wants to demonstrate that it is not the priest who works, but God through the priest.
However, if you want an exact reason, only God can give you that. After all, why should thousands of little children die in a tsunami, and yet Slobedon Milocivici gets to live to old age (or at least, into adulthood)?
But I believe that God can use all circumstances to bring about His will.
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murtad
Guest
Tell us why did Allah choose homosexuals and adulterers as judges in the syariah courts in Muslim-majority Malaysia?
Tell us, why would Allah choose such an evil person as judges in syariah courts?
The Prophet Moses was not the best of the persons, he committed many crimes, for example he was a stammerer, he got angry too quickly, and he murdered a Coptic man. This is not only a Christian view, even the holiest book of Orthodox Judaism, the Talmud, we see the Pharisee, Hillel the Elder who says of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob as well as Israeli military dictators Moses and Joshua “They were not perfect men, they all sinned yet God chose them as His spokesme for it is the right of God to choose whoever he wants for He is God.”
Your Muslim belief is false. Judaism, which came much earlier before Christian faith has always stated that prophets being human beings were not infallible. They are simply mouthpieces of God when His Spirit came upon them but they became normal human beings when the Spirit of God leaves them.
The exception of this rule is for Lord Jesus for He was, is and will always be God. Judaism rejected Lord Jesus as they could not accept that a prophet will be infallible for if a prophet is infallible He is God.
Pharisees in their Talmud call Jesus the Messiah a liar, when it says “Even Moses sinned, so how can this man Jesus Ha Netzarim be without sin. He commits blasphemy when he says so for he claims to be God”
Thus, this is proof Jesus the Messiah is God.
M
MariaG
Guest
God frequently chooses people that we cannot see why.
Choosing the second born son instead of the first, people with physical disabilities.
It is through lowly people that God’s greatestness and Power can be revealed. It helps to see the power of God to have Him work through those who are less than perfect.
God Bless,
Maria
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Emad
Guest
I want to thank everyone who helped in answering my questions. Though I disagree with it and still don’t completely understand it, I appreciate everyones efforts in answering my questions. Much thanks! 
As to Murtad, you being a former Muslim should know better than to ask such a question as this:
Tell us why did Allah choose homosexuals and adulterers as judges in the syariah courts in Muslim-majority Malaysia?
We certainly don’t believe they are chosen by Allah. They are chosen by people or put into positions by other humans. And we certainly don’t believe they are God’s representatives on earth.
As to Murtad, you being a former Muslim should know better than to ask such a question as this:
Tell us why did Allah choose homosexuals and adulterers as judges in the syariah courts in Muslim-majority Malaysia?
We certainly don’t believe they are chosen by Allah. They are chosen by people or put into positions by other humans. And we certainly don’t believe they are God’s representatives on earth.
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on_fire
Guest
Emad…why do you continue to attack our priesthood?it is only a small fraction of the priests who have caused these problems.You want to bunch the whole lot as one.now it has been shown to you numerous times that Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins.now if jesus said it,then it was God who commanded it!! it states it clear as day that Jesus gave that authority to them…if you cannot accept that,then it is useless to continue to argue about this point…
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