Confessional Lutheran Perspective on the Mother of God as given by a Lutheran "father" of the Church, Arthur Piepkorn

[grandfather]

Grandfather, you list all the things you hate about our nation now…may I ask what your solution is?

 

[ralphinal]

Besides the obvious bull in the China shop that two of the most secular, socialist countries that have led the way in turning Europe into a cess pool of humanism and the manifestation of anti-Christ in our day are Catholic - Spain and France.

As always, gurney, awesome

France has been nominally Catholic at best sense the Revolution, and Spain has had its issues with Fascism in the last 100 years.

Ireland has faught the changes, and they are more CAtholic than any. They may have changed the law, but they were the last European nation to ban abortion.

I guess none of Protestant Europe have become secular and socialist?

BTW, I do not disagree entirely.

 

[TriuneUnity]

France has been nominally Catholic at best sense the Revolution, and Spain has had its issues with Fascism in the last 100 years.

Ireland has faught the changes, and they are more CAtholic than any. They may have changed the law, but they were the last European nation to ban abortion.

I guess none of Protestant Europe have become secular and socialist?

BTW, I do not disagree entirely.

All of Protestant Europe has. As has all of Catholic Europe, with the exception of Poland. You are right that Ireland was a hold out for a while, but that is nil nowadays.

My only point was that the secularization and humanism of Europe is as much related to Catholicism as it is Protestantism; that is to say, not at all.

 

[ralphinal]

All of Protestant Europe has. As has all of Catholic Europe, with the exception of Poland. You are right that Ireland was a hold out for a while, but that is nil nowadays.

My only point was that the secularization and humanism of Europe is as much related to Catholicism as it is Protestantism; that is to say, not at all.

Actually, I slightly disagree with you.

See if my time-line makes sense.

Europe all Catholic

Europe sees Protestan Reformation

If Church can be challenged, king can be challenged

Democracy

At the same time, if Church can be challenged, need for Church not there, increase in secular thought

If we do not need an institutional church, do we need it at all?

More secularization.

Number of Church groups to fill needs down, increase in government involvement in social programs. Increase in socialization.

See, it is your fault after all

 

[TriuneUnity]

Actually, I slightly disagree with you.

See if my time-line makes sense.

Europe all Catholic

Europe sees Protestan Reformation

If Church can be challenged, king can be challenged

Democracy

At the same time, if Church can be challenged, need for Church not there, increase in secular thought

If we do not need an institutional church, do we need it at all?

More secularization.

Number of Church groups to fill needs down, increase in government involvement in social programs. Increase in socialization.

See, it is your fault after all

Your logic is sound; history just didn’t work that way lol

 

[ralphinal]

Your logic is sound; history just didn’t work that way lol

Well, if Baptists can say that John the Baptist was the first Baptist, then history means squat

 

[mark_a]

Blessed Martin Luther

???

 

[TriuneUnity]

Well, if Baptists can say that John the Baptist was the first Baptist, then history means squat

LOL…true. I wonder if they argue whether he was Southern Baptist, or Independent fundamentalist Baptist?

 

[ralphinal]

LOL…true. I wonder if they argue whether he was Southern Baptist, or Independent fundamentalist Baptist?

Primitive Baptist, duh

 

[TriuneUnity]

Primitive Baptist, duh

Primitive Baptist?

Man, now I have this image of a caveman running around on knuckles wearing a suit and tie and eating fried chicken.

 

[ralphinal]

Primitive Baptist?

Man, now I have this image of a caveman running around on knuckles wearing a suit and tie and eating fried chicken.

Lol. that is what I thought when I first met one. I asked if they had power and running water in their church

 

[Peter_J]

Sounds like a rip-off of the Franciscans Friars of the Primitive Observance.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I read all your posts, Grandfather, and I must say…wow! Fatalistic and dooming, gloomy and pretty grim stuff. I felt like I was watching “Ghostbusters” at the end where the Stay-Puft marshmallow man comes stepping on New York buildings and churches, the sky darkens, and the place turns to mush!

I hear a lot of what you’re saying, your frustration, and your disgust and how the secular humanist liberals have hijacked the society we live in and have marginalized religion and theology. You’re sure dead-on correct there. I, too, hate it.

But, again, you’ve provided no answers. Anyone can sit there and whine and moan about the end times and how the world is turned to crud and there’s no stopping it. I know the Lord speaks of end times Himself and He paints a grim picture of it. They will come someday. But how do you know for sure that we’re in them now? Perhaps God calls us to make a difference and try to change men’s hearts instead of giving up the ship and just condemning the whole deal.

I’m a public school sixth grade teacher and you’re correct to some degree about what we can and cannot say in the schools, Grandfather. BUT…in California social studies curriculum we study ancient Israel and it includes Abraham, Moses, the prophets, Jewish worship, the Ten Commandments, etc. We also study Christianity at length in the ancient Roman Empire. Our California Harcourt Brace textbook is very detailed about the lives of the saints, even Polycarp! It is very positive toward Jesus and the kids learn a great deal. I inject a lot of extra information and theology into the discussion. My kids usually tell me that they learn more in public school with me about scripture and salvation history than in bible Sunday school class at church!

Now, I’m trying to use my job to make a difference. I also do it with teaching my class a work ethic, responsibility, study habits, goal-setting and a love of learning.

I’ve been driven to just say, “ahh, screw it!” many times with the system we’re in but I just think God calls us to be ministers of change no matter how bad things get.

Do you ever go to prisons and visit inmates for Bible study and prayer? Most Catholic parishes have some sort of ministry with prisons. Have you written to your local newspaper your concerns? Do you volunteer at schools or in hospitals or work with political candidates that you think will champion your values?

There are many things, Grandfather, that you can do to fight the powers of Satan. Quit giving Satan so much credit and surrender and get out there and fight him!

We all know things are looking pretty sad right now. Financial institutions are in ashes like AIG and Washington Mutual, Fanny May and Freddie Mac, etc. are all basket cases. Abortion is rampant, cohabitation is out of control, we’re in war with countries that have never attacked us, etc. etc.

But I just try to do my part in a very small way to hope things change or at least influence a few folks to turn to God. I don’t blame Protestants, that’s for sure. Some of the most pro-life, traditional-family-oriented, Bible-believing people I know are Protestants. Some of the best and most amazing people in CAF are Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, and other denominations. I love Catholicism but I don’t think a papal gov’t is the answer. I also don’t think we should just all run into a bomb shelter and hide while we wait for the four horsemen of the apocolypse to come either. We just have to do the daily grind, do our best, pray, and hope to make a difference. Scaring and judging and ripping on Protestants and blaming them just isn’t helpful.
By the way, you asked me, “where the heck in the Bible does it say pluralism is a virtue!?” I never said the scriptures did make that assertion? I simply stated that we are a pluralistic society. I personally am glad we are! I think we should CHOOSE Catholicism, not be forced into it. I also like sciences, art, music and other things that are not Catholic. Yes, I’ll admit it, I like science fiction, some classic rock music, a lot of 1960’s and 70’s TV, I like baseball (Giants fan, pray for me! lol), and many other secular things. I don’t want the pope running my political and social life. Religious leaders stick to religion. Those who value their faith will follow. I try my best.

My final thought it this…one thing I’ve sought to do with MYSELF in recent years is to try and STOP looking at everyone else. I think the dangers of Catholicism in its focus on works and the human equation toward salvation is that we Catholics tend to look around and point out everyone who is breaking a law…“hey, that guy missed Mass last week!,” “hey! you’re using birth control, you can’t have communion!” “Hey, isn’t that lady divorced?” “hey, you voted for Obama or Kerry, you can’t approach the altar!”

Everytime I look around and judge and get deeper into my obsession with other people, I noticed that I myself was often worse than the very folks I was criticizing. Jesus talks about this again and again. I had an Anglican priest tell me one time, “look up, not around.” I think it’s true. We can’t be immune or apathetic to what is going on around us but it is unhealthy spiritually to gain personal strength and steam from the faults and failings of others. I say this because I frequently find myself feeling this way as a Catholic. Nobody is good enough for me sometimes. I’m trying to work on it. And I notice that there sure is some sincere love in Protestants for God. Sometimes I think they have more sincerity than I do. I can learn a lot from some of them and my Catholic brothers and sisters, and you, Grandfather. God bless.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I read all your posts, Grandfather, and I must say…wow! Fatalistic and dooming, gloomy and pretty grim stuff. I felt like I was watching “Ghostbusters” at the end where the Stay-Puft marshmallow man comes stepping on New York buildings and churches, the sky darkens, and the place turns to mush!

That is so one reference I never expected to see here. Hillarious LOL.

 

[grandfather]

I

But, again, you’ve provided no answers. Anyone can sit there and whine and moan about the end times and how the world is turned to crud and there’s no stopping it.

 

[grandfather]

I’m a public school sixth grade teacher and you’re correct to some degree about what we can and cannot say in the schools, Grandfather.

God bless you.

Do you ever go to prisons and visit inmates for Bible study and prayer? Most Catholic parishes have some sort of ministry with prisons.

I particpated in prison ministry for many years.

Have you written to your local newspaper your concerns? Do you volunteer at schools or in hospitals or work with political candidates that you think will champion your values?

Prolife work is what I like doing best, prayer vigils.

There are many things, Grandfather, that you can do to fight the powers of Satan. Quit giving Satan so much credit and surrender and get out there and fight him!

That battle is primarily internal.

We all know things are looking pretty sad right now. Financial institutions are in ashes like AIG and Washington Mutual, Fanny May and Freddie Mac, etc. are all basket cases. Abortion is rampant, cohabitation is out of control, we’re in war with countries that have never attacked us, etc. etc.

Look, we can never give up. But we have to be wise. We have to know where to put our energy. Believe me I don’t need a pep talk. I do believe things are changing for the better, but those are spiritual things. Aristotle said that we could improve the human condition through politics. He was wrong. The only thing that will make things better here is holy souls. The more the better.

But I just try to do my part in a very small way to hope things change or at least influence a few folks to turn to God. I don’t blame Protestants, that’s for sure. Some of the most pro-life, traditional-family-oriented, Bible-believing people I know are Protestants.

Protestants can be good people, or bad. The problem is Protestantism, not necessarily Protestants. Protestantism is the genesis of relatavism. I could make the connection for you, but it would take a long essay.

We just have to do the daily grind, do our best, pray, and hope to make a difference.

Sort of. We have to be obedient to God and live according to His will. We are the doors that will allow grace to enter the world or hinder it.

Scaring and judging and ripping on Protestants and blaming them just isn’t helpful.

See above!

I don’t want the pope running my political and social life.

That makes two of you.

Everytime I look around and judge and get deeper into my obsession with other people, I noticed that I myself was often worse than the very folks I was criticizing.

That is grace.

And I notice that there sure is some sincere love in Protestants for God. Sometimes I think they have more sincerity than I do. I can learn a lot from some of them and my Catholic brothers and sisters, and you, Grandfather. God bless.

I am going to try at some point on some thread to discuss the impact of Protestantism on history. It really did bring a sea change to civilization. How we see truth is changed. Why unity is essential to survival of Christian civilization is forgotten. The consequences of believing false doctrine are no longer comprehended. The reason earlier Christians feared heresy was they knew if society believed lies about spiritual reality and moral law we would be doomed, because we would depart from God’s truth, the way. We have lived for so long with division we think it is normal and healthy. Unity will be restored. It is God’s work.

I don’t have answers to propose. I am helpless and sit and watch, but I also know that everyone else is also. The most powerful man on the planet may be the President. He is helpless to stop the crisis we are in. He is helpless to rid the cities of crack, or crime. We are kind of flowing down a stream and going where it takes us. What you can do is love the kids in your class along the way and teach them to love one another and if you squeeze in some math and history all the better. The difference we can all make is in brgining love and grace into the world. That is what we are starved for. I don’t really mean I sit and watch. I try to be kind to the people I meet and work with and be a good father and husband and grandfather. We all do our best. I don’t think Protestants are bad people. They do their very best in all sincerity to do God’s will to the limits of the grace they have. I think the same thing about Muslims and Jews and Buddhists. We all struggle along with what we have and we all fail at some point. That is not the point. God commands us to be one and we are divided. The outcome of that is terrible and terrifying.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Great response, Grandfather. You sound like an amazing guy. I agree with you on practically everything but I just would like a gentler approach to conversion of Protestants, that’s all. And I don’t mean a wimpy approach either. I just think telling them they’re fallen and relativists, etc. isn’t a good way to address them. I hate it when protestants tell me I’m a works-driven, idolatrous, pagan Catholic. It sure tunes me out to anything they have to say!

I’m fascinated with the Reformation. I find it a key step toward modern democracy and the opening up of some secular things I like. I think it is a crucial development in history.

That being said, what I see in protestantism is chaos. When Luther had his phony kidnappy staged and he was in hiding for ten months disguised as “Junker George,” all h#LL broke loose in Wittenberg. Carlstadt and other fanatics exagerrated Luther as an iconoclast and more anti-Catholic than he really was. And guys like Zwingli took reformation even further to the point that the Eucharist was a joke and so was infant baptism. The anabaptists really went off the deep end! These guys were going every which way, some believing they were following Augustine with predestination at the expense of Augustine’s view on the importance of the Church, some hating Augustine and following Humanism (Erasmus types) and Origen. Some even denied the trinity, some wanted to stay liturgical, some wanted a presbyterian model, on and on and on. I think it must’ve dawned on Luther what a nightmare the reformation was when he and Zwingli “had it out” about the Eucharist. Luther ended up using church history and tradition to justify some things like the Immaculate conception of Mary, infant baptism, and the real presence of the Eucharist. He ended up looking more Catholic than any of these guys.

The reformation religiously created havoc and chaos in many ways producing a vast array of little “popes” like Calvin and Henry VIII, etc. The irony of their rebellion against authority is that they ended up being exactly what they supposedly hated. And religious liberty was not tolerated very well either despite their professions in that direction.

But being intellectually honest I just have to say that, in the formation of nationhood and government, democracy, scientific inquiry and freedom, the reformation played a big role. I never said it was religiously a good thing. But obviously it was God’s will that it happen and only He knows why.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses and you sound like a very holy man that has done good work for the Lord.

 

[Steadfast]

???

You’re surprised that Lutherans revere Martin Luther?

Or you just want to pick a fight?

 

[grandfather]

But being intellectually honest I just have to say that, in the formation of nationhood and government, democracy, scientific inquiry and freedom, the reformation played a big role. I never said it was religiously a good thing. But obviously it was God’s will that it happen and only He knows why.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses and you sound like a very holy man that has done good work for the Lord.

I am not a holy man.

One of the realizations that I had studying history is that we can at best know what was. History has a strange way of being colored depending on who has the crayons, but it is possible to know what happened. What we do not know is what might have been.

So for example I can see signs that prior to WWII civilization was on the verge of great achievements in every field, medicine, science, religion, art. To me it seems like we came to a fork in the road and chose destruction and chaos. What would life be like today if we did not have WWII?

WWI was entirely avoidable. The President of the U.S. refused to talk with a monarch who offered extreme cocessions to avoid war. We were making the world safe for democracy in this great senseless slaughter, as we are doing now in Iraq on the front lines of freedom. Pardon my sarcasm.

When you put your hand on a hot stove and feel instant pain it is easy to connect the cause and effect. If you were exposed to some chemical in the environment and got cancer forty years later it is not so easy to make the connection.

Ideas are powerful. They are manifested in society and shape our lives for good and bad. Sometimes it takes centuries for them to play out.

When we try to understand why our world looks the way it does it is difficult, because there are so many moving parts. The complexity is great, but if we can identify the key drivers, which are ideas, we can see why we are the way we are.

What you do not know is what would have happened differently if Christendom had not been fractured. The tendency is to assume that centuries would have rolled by with no change to the way life was in the 16th century.

God revealed truth to us. We need to know what it is. It is about us as spiritual creatures, who we are, where we came from, why we exist, where we are going, and how to get there.

We need to know divinely revealed truths with certainty. We have to be able to rely on them, the truths of faith.

As you revealed the theological chaos that was unleashed by Protestantism’s revolt, what we really see is that there is never any setlled matter. Everything is up for grabs, the Trinity, The Holy Eucharist, with nothing being immune. It is still that way today. Should we baptize babies? Some do some don’t. Some deny baptism is a sacrament. The Real Presence, Holy Orders, Unitarians vs. Trinitarians. You have some refusing to pray for the dead and Mormons baptizing the dead. Protestantism is religious chaos. In it, truth can not be known. Nothing can ever be settled matter. Anyone can come along at any time and start a break away sect based on their personal peculiar beliefs.

How does this constant division, anarchy and chaos impact civilization? What effect does it have on souls? Remember, we are spiritual creatures.

You are a school teacher. Part of your job is to motivate students. Sometimes you might see a student trying hard and struggling. The way to encourage that student is by being sympathetic, praise for trying and small successes. Maybe the student’s parents are divorcing and there are painful tihngs going on. You want to pick the kid up and carry him and protect him.

Another student is pretty talented and lazy and disrespectful, doesn’t put out any effort. Maybe you have to scold that student, call the parents, give a bad grade, etc. The point is the way you deal with different students changes from kid to kid, situation to situation.

But, in the end what you want is the good of all of them as they journey through a year in your classroom and then on to the next station.

Christians are like that. Some of us are ahead of others on the path, but sometimes it is hard to tell. We are all learning. We are all growing and on our way. Sometimes we need comfort and praise and sometimes a kick in the butt.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I am not a holy man.

Sorry for calling you holy…lol…:
As you revealed the theological chaos that was unleashed by Protestantism’s revolt, what we really see is that there is never any setlled matter. Everything is up for grabs, the Trinity, The Holy Eucharist, with nothing being immune. It is still that way today. Should we baptize babies? Some do some don’t. Some deny baptism is a sacrament. The Real Presence, Holy Orders, Unitarians vs. Trinitarians. You have some refusing to pray for the dead and Mormons baptizing the dead. Protestantism is religious chaos. In it, truth can not be known. Nothing can ever be settled matter. Anyone can come along at any time and start a break away sect based on their personal peculiar beliefs.

You are a school teacher. Part of your job is to motivate students. Sometimes you might see a student trying hard and struggling. The way to encourage that student is by being sympathetic, praise for trying and small successes. Maybe the student’s parents are divorcing and there are painful tihngs going on. You want to pick the kid up and carry him and protect him.

I try my best. It’s tough

Christians are like that. Some of us are ahead of others on the path, but sometimes it is hard to tell. We are all learning. We are all growing and on our way. Sometimes we need comfort and praise and sometimes a kick in the butt.

Well, I agree that the Reformation created chaos. I’m reading “The Reformation” by Diarmaid MacCulloch right now. Interestingly enough, the author is a flaming liberal and yet he is intellectually honest in his writing. The book details in gory detail how Luther, Zwingli, Bucer, Calvin, Cranmer and all the rest couldn’t agree on anything, probably even the weather outside. It’s so interesting to see Luther’s frustration and disappointment with the way his “reformation” came out. His debating with Zwingli over the real presence in the Eucharist and arguments about infant baptism show a reliance on Catholic tradition and Catholic sensibilities. Luther has to resort to tradition for many arguments.

What’s so bizarre is that the deeper into the Reformation things got, after a while with all the varying wackos denying baptism, iconoclasm, anti-Marianism, anti-infant baptism, degrading the Eucharist to an empty symbol, etc. Luther actually started to look like the CONSERVATIVE TRADITIONALIST!!..compared to the other guys.

To reform something means to clean it up and get it back on track. The Church was never against infant baptism. It never viewed the Eucharist as empty bread. It never taught that Jesus had brothers and sisters or that Mary wasn’t special. It never taught that scripture is the sole source of Christian teaching. The “reformation” was really an all-hell-breaking-loose catastrophe religiously.

I agree that to speculate on what 2008 would look like had the reformation not taken place is futile. All I can see that is positive from it is what I’ve stated in past posts. I don’t trust the Catholic Church then or now to interfere in political intrigue with governments, wars, finance, and science as it did in the Middle Ages. But I sure do trust it to hone my morality, to fashion theology, to tell me right and wrong, and to guide my faith.

But I think we need religious freedom and a society that allows one to choose Christ, to choose Catholicism, not to be a milktoast Catholic in a society where it is forced upon us and there is religious oppression.

I share your cynicism about people and government. In my classroom I see mostly divorce, cohabitation, parents covered in tattoos who can scarcely eek out a sentence in proper English, and great apathy. I would agree with you about the source. I think the “justification through faith ALONE” doctrine has reared its ugly head a great deal in the 20th-21st centuries. It’s rare to find a denomination that DOESN’T condemn divorce these days. So many of these cohabiting parents are going to churches every Sunday. Many of them just like the youth group or the soccer field or the feel-good sermons and events. Theology and deep faith are becoming less important to people in a “don’t judge me, man!” culture.

As a public school teacher, I get VERY angry at Republicans and conservatives who seek vouchers and no child left behind and other “let’s sock it them teachers!” mentalities. Starting at kindergarten we receive kids who are overstimulated by video games, fed a lousy diet, put to bed way too late for years, have parents who are often divorced or are cohabitating, don’t know Christ, and are generally not taught values at home.

I have kids all the time ask me, “how did Jesus die anyway?” when we study ancient Rome and its religions. Two weeks ago I had a kid ask, “what is baptism anyway?” Most of the kids think that Peter was the apostle who betrayed our Lord to the Pharisees and I’ve had some kids who thought Mary was Jesus’ sister. These kids are a product of lousy parents with no intention to create children of faith.

Our Catholic churches have done a HORRIFIC job of catchising our own folks for decades and we’re reaping the sad reward from it now…kids and parents who don’t know the difference between a Mormon, a Baptist, and a Buddhist.

We Catholics need to make a stronger difference in our parishes and be better role models, too.