Confessional Lutherans: The Communion of Saints

[MikhaelJohnPaul]

I’ve never quite understood the Confessional Lutheran perspective, as I’ve gotten so many different answers. I dislike the fact that I claim belief in the Communion of Saints in the Creed without actually knowing our position.

 

[steido01]

I’ve never quite understood the Confessional Lutheran perspective, as I’ve gotten so many different answers. I dislike the fact that I claim belief in the Communion of Saints in the Creed without actually knowing our position.

What’s your question?

The Communion of Saints is simply (and magnificently!) the fellowship shared between all Christians, Militant or Triumphant, thanks to the Sacrifice of Christ. We are brought together in that shared meal which transcends time, space, life and death - the Holy Sacrament of the Altar. Having received this great Gift from God, we give each other mutual encouragement; we pray for each other on earth and know that our fellow Saints - Militant and Triumphant - also pray for us.

 

[MikhaelJohnPaul]

What’s your question?

The Communion of Saints is simply (and magnificently!) the fellowship shared between all Christians, Militant or Triumphant, thanks to the Sacrifice of Christ. We are brought together in that shared meal which transcends time, space, life and death - the Holy Sacrament of the Altar. Having received this great Gift from God, we give each other mutual encouragement; we pray for each other on earth and know that our fellow Saints - Militant and Triumphant - also pray for us.

Where do the Saints in Heaven fit into this? Surely they are alive in Heaven, as God is the God of the living. But we don’t talk to or pray to them. So, where do they fit into the Communion of Saints? Are you saying the Communion of Saints is simply us Christians sharing a meal at the Lord’s Table?

 

[pablope]

Where do the Saints in Heaven fit into this?
But we don’t talk to or pray to them. So, where do they fit into the Communion of Saints? Are you saying the Communion of Saints is simply us Christians sharing a meal at the Lord’s Table?

It came from the Catholic Church, with some aspects rejected by Lutherans somewhat in the 1500s…and it has its roots in the OT, from the Jews:

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm/mobile/false

thecatholicspirit.com/featured/understanding-the-communion-of-saints/

 

[MaryT777]

Mikhael,

Welcome to the forums!~

Mary.

 

[MikhaelJohnPaul]

It came from the Catholic Church, with some aspects rejected by Lutherans somewhat in the 1500s…and it has its roots in the OT, from the Jews:

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm/mobile/false

thecatholicspirit.com/featured/understanding-the-communion-of-saints/

I know where it comes from. My main question is how we Confessional Lutherans tie the Heavenly Saints into this, if at all. The Catholic explanation makes more sense to me.

 

[MikhaelJohnPaul]

Mikhael,

Welcome to the forums!~

Mary.

Thank you!

 

[steido01]

Where do the Saints in Heaven fit into this? Surely they are alive in Heaven, as God is the God of the living. But we don’t talk to or pray to them. So, where do they fit into the Communion of Saints?

Where do they fit? They fit into the Communion of Saints, just as the Saints on earth do. What’s more, we know that they pray for us. We know that there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. We know that they offer prayers “as bowls of incense.”

Now, Lutherans have generally shied away from asking those Saints who’ve passed on to pray for us. This is for several reasons:

1. 
   *]We have acess to Christ, Who is a greater mediator than any Saint.
   *]Christ neither commanded it nor practiced it.
   *]We already know the Saints are praying for us, just as we know God has sent angels to care for us. In either case, God deserves our thanks, praise and attention - not angels or our fellow Saints.
   *]There does not exist clear Scriptural evidence that this practice is proper. Even the bits of antilogomena that could be construed as supportive require a few presuppositions.
   *]Devotion to something other than Christ, even with the best and most pious of intentions, could be twisted to take our eyes off of Christ - and I’m not saying asking the departed for intercessions necessarily does this, only that it can. When salvation is at stake, why take the chance?
   

   Are you saying the Communion of Saints is simply us Christians sharing a meal at the Lord’s Table?

   Much more than that. The Meal is where Saints Triumphant and Militant come together to worship in Christ’s Presence. The “Communion of Saints” might also be called the “Community of Saints” because it also refers to the church - both on Earth (locally and broadly, wherever the Sacraments are rightly administered and Word preached) and in Heaven. It is a magnificent, wonderful, beautiful gift to be a member of Christ’s Body. The Christian is never alone. Through Baptism, and further through Communion, Christians are incorporated into that Eternal Communion.
   
   While I’m reticent to talk about praying to the dead/asking them to pray for us, all Lutherans can agree wholeheartedly with Roman Catholics on the basic nature of the Communion of Saints. From our friend pablope’s link:
   

   While the saints, those whose names are listed in the Book of Life, gather together in solemn assembly at the throne of God in the heavenly liturgy, bow down and worship God day and night, sing hymns of praise, cry out, “Honor, power, and might be to our God forever and ever” (Revelation 7:12) and exclaim, “Amen! Alleluia!” (Revelation 19:4), the saints on earth gather together around God’s altar at liturgy week after week, and in praise and worship cry out, “Glory to God in the highest! We worship you. We give you thanks. We praise you for your glory!” And continue, “Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might!”

   The same Christ who reigns on the throne in heaven with his saints above is made present in the Eucharist with his saints below, and when the faithful receive the Eucharist, there is holy Communion between all of God’s saints.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Where do the Saints in Heaven fit into this? Surely they are alive in Heaven, as God is the God of the living. But we don’t talk to or pray to them. So, where do they fit into the Communion of Saints? Are you saying the Communion of Saints is simply us Christians sharing a meal at the Lord’s Table?

All of God’s people are connected. We are all apart of the Communion of Saints.

 

[steido01]

Oh! And since Lutherans are the “singing church,” it’s a good idea to search Lutheran hymnody to understand Lutheran theology. Take the following hymns for All Saint’s Day (some have been adapted from other church bodies, but reflect Lutheran theology properly and are included in most hymnals):

For All the Saints Who from Their Labors Rest
For all the saints who from their labors rest,
Who Thee by faith before the world confess,
Thy name, O Jesus, be forever blest,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

Thou wast their Rock, their Fortress, and their Might;
Thou, Lord, their Captain in the well-fought fight;
Thou, in the darkness drear, their one true Light.
Alleluia! Alleluia!

Oh, may Thy soldiers, faithful, true and bold,
Fight as the saints who nobly fought of old
And win with them the victor’s crown of gold.
Alleluia! Alleluia!

O blest communion, fellowship divine,
We feebly struggle, they in glory shine;
Yet all are one in Thee, for all are Thine.
Alleluia! Alleluia!

And when the fight is fierce, the warfare long,
Steals on the ear the distant triumph song,
And hearts are brave again, and arms are strong.
Alleluia! Alleluia!

But, lo, there breaks a yet more glorious day;
The saints triumphant rise in bright array;
The King of Glory passes on His way.
Alleluia! Alleluia!

From earth’s wide bounds, from ocean’s farthest coast,
Through gates of pearl streams in the countless host,
Singing to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,
Alleluia! Alleluia!

The golden evening brightens in the west;
Soon, soon, to faithful warriors cometh rest.
Sweet is the calm of Paradise the blest.
Alleluia! Alleluia!

Note how the focus is entirely on Christ and His accomplishments - even when thanking Him for the example and prayers of those who’ve gone before. That is the Lutheran uniqueness with regard to the Communion of Saints. Other hymns that reflect the ‘community’ aspect of the Communion of Saints: Behold a Host Arrayed in White, Onward Christian Soldiers, Sing with All the Saints in Glory, Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones, Jerusalem the Golden and alternate tune, We Sing For All the Unsung Saints, At the Lamb’s High Feast We Sing, This is the Feast of Victory, etc. I’m no emotional person, but these hymns move me like few others.

 

[JonNC]

Where do they fit? They fit into the Communion of Saints, just as the Saints on earth do. What’s more, we know that they pray for us. We know that there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. We know that they offer prayers “as bowls of incense.”

Now, Lutherans have generally shied away from asking those Saints who’ve passed on to pray for us. This is for several reasons:

1. 
   *]We have acess to Christ, Who is a greater mediator than any Saint.
   *]Christ neither commanded it nor practiced it.
   *]We already know the Saints are praying for us, just as we know God has sent angels to care for us. In either case, God deserves our thanks, praise and attention - not angels or our fellow Saints.
   *]There does not exist clear Scriptural evidence that this practice is proper. Even the bits of antilogomena that could be construed as supportive require a few presuppositions.
   *]Devotion to something other than Christ, even with the best and most pious of intentions, could be twisted to take our eyes off of Christ - and I’m not saying asking the departed for intercessions necessarily does this, only that it can. When salvation is at stake, why take the chance?
   
   Much more than that. The Meal is where Saints Triumphant and Militant come together to worship in Christ’s Presence. The “Communion of Saints” might also be called the “Community of Saints” because it also refers to the church - both on Earth (locally and broadly, wherever the Sacraments are rightly administered and Word preached) and in Heaven. It is a magnificent, wonderful, beautiful gift to be a member of Christ’s Body. The Christian is never alone. Through Baptism, and further through Communion, Christians are incorporated into that Eternal Communion.
   
   While I’m reticent to talk about praying to the dead/asking them to pray for us, all Lutherans can agree wholeheartedly with Roman Catholics on the basic nature of the Communion of Saints. From our friend pablope’s link:

1. 
   
   As an addition, The reticence to practice invocation of the saints does not prohibit us from praying to the Father that He hear the intercessory prayers of the saints in Heaven, just as we do here on earth: “we ask you to hear us, oh Lord.”
   
   Jon

 

[Reuben_J]

Where do they fit? They fit into the Communion of Saints, just as the Saints on earth do. What’s more, we know that they pray for us. We know that there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. We know that they offer prayers “as bowls of incense.”

Now, Lutherans have generally shied away from asking those Saints who’ve passed on to pray for us. This is for several reasons:

1. 
   *]We have acess to Christ, Who is a greater mediator than any Saint.
   *]Christ neither commanded it nor practiced it.
   *]We already know the Saints are praying for us, just as we know God has sent angels to care for us. In either case, God deserves our thanks, praise and attention - not angels or our fellow Saints.
   *]There does not exist clear Scriptural evidence that this practice is proper. Even the bits of antilogomena that could be construed as supportive require a few presuppositions.
   *]Devotion to something other than Christ, even with the best and most pious of intentions, could be twisted to take our eyes off of Christ - and I’m not saying asking the departed for intercessions necessarily does this, only that it can. When salvation is at stake, why take the chance?

1. 
   ???
   
   Just highlighting the part where you mentioned the saints are praying for us but they do not deserve our thanks. I think it is odd, as Christians, if we are not thankful to someone who has done or meant good things for us.

 

[steido01]

???

Just highlighting the part where you mentioned the saints are praying for us but they do not deserve our thanks. I think it is odd, as Christians, if we are not thankful to someone who has done or meant good things for us.

See #5 above, and Jon’s response in particular. We can be thankful to God for the prayers of the Saints. Also Revelation 19:10 and 22:5 (I think? Can’t remember offhand).

We can thank them when we meet them again.

 

[steido01]

See #5 above, and Jon’s response in particular. We can be thankful to God for the prayers of the Saints. Also Revelation 19:10 and 22:5 (I think? Can’t remember offhand).

We can thank them when we meet them again.

It’s Rev. 22:9, sorry.

 

[steido01]

Are you saying the Communion of Saints is simply us Christians sharing a meal at the Lord’s Table?

Stumbled across this in the morning Facebook feed. Seemed more than relevant.
Blessings on your day!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[JonNC]

Stumbled across this in the morning Facebook feed. Seemed more than relevant.
Blessings on your day!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbthhWzUcAAvEJA.jpg

Jon

 

[gus]

Stumbled across this in the morning Facebook feed. Seemed more than relevant.
Blessings on your day!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbthhWzUcAAvEJA.jpg

When we lift up our hearts to the Lord we remove ourselves from the flesh and go up and meet the Lord in the spirit and in our Communion ,we are joined to those heavenly saints and all our brothers throughout the world.