Confessional, what gives man the right to forgive for God?

[Americanrevert]

**Hello,

Myself being a convert/revert to Islam from the Protestant belief, I have always wondered why Catholics went to a “Confessional” instead of going straight to God? Is he better than one’s Creator? Is it that yall consider a man to be on the same level as God? Or was given permission by God Himself (where’s the proof of that)? I mean if yall rely on the Bible and the Bible cannot be 100% proven by God Himself~even by Christian theologians claim this), how can a man be able to forgive your sins?

americanrevert**

 

[Didi]

As with all the Catholic sacraments, it isn’t man who is performing them, man is just God’s instrument. It is God who forgives, it is God who baptizes, it is God who confirms, etc. The priests, through the power given them by the sacrament of Holy Orders, passed down by the apostles since the time of Christ, are the instruments of God, working through the Holy Spirit.

God gave us the sacraments as gifts because He knew how much we would need the grace we receive from them. It is very healing and humbling to confess your sins to a priest, and God knew we would need this process for our own spiritual healing and growth.

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, ‘Peace be with you.’ When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’” John 20:19-23

 

[mattkubes]

I mean if yall rely on the Bible and the Bible cannot be 100% proven by God Himself~even by Christian theologians claim this)

No orthodox theologian will claim that the Bible is not 100% inspired…not too sure where you got that idea haha - do you have references to back up that claim?

 

[notsmart]

I thought muslims had no problem with confessing sins to a muslim they consider knowledgeable?

Is this bad information I have heard?

 

[Rawb]

I mean if yall rely on the Bible and the Bible cannot be 100% proven by God Himself

The Bible is the Word of God. That’s it. That’s all there is to it. We believe this. You don’t. You can’t expect us to chuck out our beliefs in order to satisfy your arguments.

Scripture says:

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.** If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.**’” John 20:19-23

It also says:

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle (2 Thess. 2:15)

and:

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves (Mathew 7:15)

So excuse me if I don’t take your argument very seriously when it is grounded on such a shaky premise.

 

[Americanrevert]

**Hello,

Thank you for your reply Didi much appreciated

by Matt

No orthodox theologian will claim that the Bible is not 100% inspired…not too sure where you got that idea haha - do you have references to back up that claim?

Yes, by Christian Theologians themselves. Can look on line and am sure you will find some

by notsmart

I thought muslims had no problem with confessing sins to a muslim they consider knowledgeable?

Is this bad information I have heard?

To be honest, to confess, doesn’t necessarily mean to forgive. In all sincerity, a Muslim knows that Only Allah has the power of forgiveness (as far as sins go to confess). Yes, mankind may make mistakes to or upon another person, and yes, forgiveness from them Personally is required and/or actually mandatory.

Matt, I have to go to my physiotherapy (I have epicondilytis~eek not sure how you spell that lol in other words “tennis elbow”), but I can look up on line later on God willing for that information you asked for…(shouldn’t be that hard God willing)…but my appt is at noon and it is after 11 so am runnin a little behind. Sorry…and for those who are gonna say, “it’s just a way to get out of things, you are truly a messed up person”. If you, Matt, find any info, please share with us your findings ok? thanks!

americanrevert**

 

[mattkubes]

Haha well I know there won’t be any orthodox theologian who makes that claim…he would basically be denying his faith in the scriptures. I’m sure I could find some lunatic with an old geocities page making the claim, but no reputable theologian would ever say that.

Remember, anyone can claim anything they want in the internet. Tomorrow I could claim that my phonebook was a new revelation revealed to me in a dream - yes, I could even make a webpage about it. But that wouldn’t make me right.

 

[RLT]

Yes, by Christian Theologians themselves. Can look on line and am sure you will find some

Gee, how convenient.

Post #5 :clapping:

 

[mattkubes]

But as to your original question! You saw from the scriptures that the others quoted that God clearly meant to forgive sins through His bishops and priests. Perhaps your background as a Protestant makes this hard to digest, but the words are there, as clear as day

 

[Angelos]

**Hello,

Myself being a convert/revert to Islam from the Protestant belief, I have always wondered why Catholics went to a “Confessional” instead of going straight to God? Is he better than one’s Creator? Is it that yall consider a man to be on the same level as God? Or was given permission by God Himself (where’s the proof of that)? I mean if yall rely on the Bible and the Bible cannot be 100% proven by God Himself~even by Christian theologians claim this), how can a man be able to forgive your sins?

americanrevert**

You criticise Christianity for having the sacrament of penance since you think no one has the authority to forgive one’s sins in the name of God. However, your new faith (Islam) teaches that sinful men on earth have the authority to punish other sinners in the name of Allah:

Surah 5:38
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Why cannot Allah punish His sinful servants Himself?

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, by Christian Theologians themselves. Can look on line and am sure you will find some

No, why don’t you provide evidence for one of your claims against the Bible for once? You can’t just come here and say “the Bible is wrong, even Christians agree with me”, and not actually produce any evidence! Of course, you can’t in this case because NO Christian agrees with you, and you know it! So stop with the baseless claims already. They are so tiresome.

To be honest, to confess, doesn’t necessarily mean to forgive.

This is a confusing sentence, since the one doing the confessing and the one forgiving are never the same person. So you are wrong even here: To confess NEVER means to forgive.

Yes, mankind may make mistakes to or upon another person, and yes, forgiveness from them Personally is required and/or actually mandatory.

This is a very good thing, but it cannot end there (what if the person you have wronged is dead or moves away or something like this?). Also, it is not just the individual who we have wronged that we need to apologize to and ask forgiveness from. Every act of wrongdoing also demands that we turn to God in a spirit of contrition. So Catholics take it further than personal forgiveness, by going to confession and telling the priest of our sins. One of the reasons that we do this is so that we may be forgiven and allowed to re-enter full communion with the Church. It is a way of admitting before God’s ordained that we have placed ourselves away from God and outside of His Church by our sins, and that we are repentant and wish to come back into His fold, so that we may be guided by Him through His Word and His Church. We do also pray to God directly for forgiveness (or at least I do, and every other Catholic I know does; I would be very shocked and concerned if any did not).

 

[mattkubes]

You criticise Christianity for having the sacrament of penance since you think no one has the authority to forgive one’s sins in the name of God. However, your new faith (Islam) teaches that sinful men on earth have the authority to punish other sinners in the name of Allah:

Surah 5:38
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Why cannot Allah punish His sinful servants Himself?

Uh oh, I sense some major verbal gymnastics coming…great point :clapping:

 

[Angelos]

Uh oh, I sense some major verbal gymnastics coming…great point :clapping:

Waiting for the Islamic Olympics here.

 

[Dempsey1919]

However, your new faith (Islam) teaches that sinful men on earth have the authority to punish other sinners in the name of Allah

Great point!

Americanrevert,

“Allah” has given men the power to condemn others and carry out his punishments. In other words, he has given men the power to judge others. The muslims responsible for judging others can choose to be merciful or vengeful. Just as they have the power to condemn, they have the power to forgive.

Surah 5:38
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

The judge could choose not to chop the thieves hand off. He could show mercy to the thief. He can, in a sense, forgive the thief.

Therefore, anyone who has the power to condemn also has the power to forgive. The Islamic courts have the power to punish and to forgive.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You criticise Christianity for having the sacrament of penance since you think no one has the authority to forgive one’s sins in the name of God. However, your new faith (Islam) teaches that sinful men on earth have the authority to punish other sinners in the name of Allah:

Surah 5:38
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Why cannot Allah punish His sinful servants Himself?

Great point as always Angelos.

I’ll just add. How does the Black Rock take sins and become black, as you Muslims believe?

 

[Dempsey1919]

I’ll just add. How does the Black Rock take sins and become black, as you Muslims believe?

Would you mind explaining this? I’ve never heard this before and it sounds very interesting. Thanks

 

[Angelos]

Great point as always Angelos.

I’ll just add. How does the Black Rock take sins and become black, as you Muslims believe?

Thanks

 

[Angelos]

Great point!

Americanrevert,

“Allah” has given men the power to condemn others and carry out his punishments. In other words, he has given men the power to judge others. The muslims responsible for judging others can choose to be merciful or vengeful. Just as they have the power to condemn, they have the power to forgive.

Therefore, anyone who has the power to condemn also has the power to forgive. The Islamic courts have the power to punish and to forgive.

Let’s wait and see how Muslims will strive to deny these facts

 

[Nickkname]

**Hello,

Myself being a convert/revert to Islam from the Protestant belief, I have always wondered why Catholics went to a “Confessional” instead of going straight to God? Is he better than one’s Creator? Is it that yall consider a man to be on the same level as God? Or was given permission by God Himself (where’s the proof of that)? I mean if yall rely on the Bible and the Bible cannot be 100% proven by God Himself~even by Christian theologians claim this), how can a man be able to forgive your sins?

americanrevert**

No man has the right to forgive for God. Only God can forgive sins. That is why God Himself instituted Confession, as we read in John 20: 21-23.

He breathed on the Apostles, just as He had breathed into Adam to give him life, giving them His Spirit. He did not give Adam His Spirit but only life, animation. But to the Apostles He gave true life, the life in the Holy Spirit, which is the fulfillment of human life. When God gave the Apostles His Spirit He commanded them, “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

To understand fully what God meant, it is necessary to go back to an earlier period in Jesus’ life when He gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom (Matthew 16: 19), saying, “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” It is no accident that these words and the words God spoke later on (“whose sins you forgive…”) are similar, but are exactly the words which God spoke. When Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, He was using rabbinic language that was used at that time; to give “the keys to the kingdom of heaven” means to give someone authority, the authority to excommunicate, because the Jewish leaders were vicars of God on earth; i.e., by the authority entrusted to them by God Himself, the leaders excommunicated individuals.

This is the authority that Jesus gave Peter, which, in light of His mission of universal redemption, tells us three things: Jesus is creating a new Israel and Peter is the rock upon which the new People of God (the Church) stands, just as Moses was the rock upon Israel stood; Jesus is making a new and everlasting covenant; the Apostles will have the same authority that the Jewish leaders had in Jesus’ time (the authority to teach, to sanctify, and to rule).

Now, in light of this authority, we can understand Jesus’ words when He breathed on the Apostles. They don’t forgive sins as if they are gods - they act, in Jesus’ Person, as the ministers of God’s Mercy. And this is made more clear in light of the formula of absolution: “God, the Father of Mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen”

 

[Nickkname]

Self-correction: After more research I realized that “the new People of God (the Church) stands, just as Moses was the rock upon Israel stood” is actually a mistake. Instead it should just read “the Church stands”. I regret making this error.