Confimation Advice/Logic behind waiting

[H_Opey]

puzzleannie,
Thank you for your service! WOW! You must have prepared people for confirmation for so long you can do it in your sleep!

Please forgive us if we are just learning these things ourselves.

As for my reference to the whole family coming into the Church at Easter, that was a true story and it was the Pastor who decided this, or at least that is what he said. Of course I am sure their names were sent on to the Bishop, but he was the one who decided whether or not they would be completely brought into the church, or just receive Baptism and Holy Eucharist.

 

[H_Opey]

Ceil-1
We have heard of this but want to do this in our parish. We were told by a priest what needed to be done and who to write to to get permission but we really really believed that it would be no big deal. (letter to Archbishop Sambi, I believe is what I remember).

Anyway. Did you feel like a “traitor” for doing it that way? That you were doing something wrong?

 

[H_Opey]

puzzleannie
BTW I just noticed your location in Texas. Did you know we are scheduled to move within 2 years to Texas? Somewhere between Galveston and Corpus Christi. I promise no to harrass you with stupid questions if by chance we end up in the same parish!!!

 

[axolotl]

for the last time, the decision on the age for Confirmation rests with the BISHOP, not the pastor, not the DRE, not the parish secretary. Please don’t blame us for trying to do our jobs.

In my diocese the age of confirmation varies from parish to parish. My parish confirms in the 8th grade. Our DRE wanted to change it to an older age, but there was much protest. My mother’s church confirms in High School. Holy Cross in Euclid does it before First Communion.

Can really comlicate things if you move across town.

 

[jmcrae]

Are we missing something behind the logic or do we really NOT have the responsibility to educate our children?

I think there may be a misunderstanding about what Religious Education is. Yes, you are responsible for your child’s Religious Education.

The Bishop is responsible for your child’s Sacraments.

It’s very common for people to get confused between Religious Education and the Sacraments. A lot of people are under the false impression that they are the same thing, and that learning about a Sacrament is the same thing as preparing to receive it.

Religious Education actually is the knowledge that the child needs in order to function as a Catholic. The Sacraments give us the grace to live what we’ve learned in Religious Education. Obedience to the Bishop is also a source of grace.

I would ask for your prayers as this is very stressful and hard for me.

You have them!

 

[Ceil-1]

I find it appalling that we parents are expected to sit by helplessly as our children’s faith gets undermined by the half-baked ideas of the bureaucrats who put themselves in authority over us.

I lost my faith because of the sappy, spirit-less, two-bit so-called catechesis which gets steadily worse. It is these bishops and priests who are causing the massive exodus we are faced with. Many, if not most are unbelievers who don’t want to give up the power. I’m not even touching on the abuses, which are rampant. Yes, they are attacked by satan, but that’s what happens when you pooh-pooh the Rosary, and the other devotions that have sustained us thus far. They run the parishes as if it they owned it. No beholding to God for the results. The arrogance is astounding. Even those that have faith have no backbone.

I had to take my son to confession, and let me tell you it was the day after the pastor was found to have been a child molester jockeying for position for the next victim and the bishop KNEW it! I won’t say more, because it would be sinful.

The so-called confirmation preparation my son is expected to go through is a big joke. The introductory film compared Chrismation to the Romans oiling themselves after their bath. Hello?! Several minutes of the film focused on showing a little girl being given a bubble bath. A bubble bath? It hardly mentioned a thing about Confirmation. In fact, he was dressed like a slob. When will these people wake up? We are literally starving to death for the Faith and we get bubble gum and Mickey Mouse. At the retreats we color mandalas and squeeze rocks. Never, not once is even the definition of Confirmation given in the whole program, oh but we’re expected to put 30 hours of service in. Oh, yes. They get the fee and the service from us, and what do we get in return? A bunch of worthless trinkets to take home. We parents are expected to take the book home and teach it on top of it. It’s absolutely shameful.

I wold feel like a traitor if I did not go the “back door” with these things. A traitor to Christ. My only hope is the young priests coming out of the seminary that understand these things. They are true soldiers for Christ. And who is their worst enemy? Their own congergations, that’s who. Don’t take my word for it. Ask some of them.

I am loyal to the Magisterium and will always defend it. The parishes as they exist today are an unmitigated disaster, spiritually speaking. I realized a long time ago that I would have to take matters in my own hands, and God has more than provided. I could literally write a book on the experiences I have had with the Church, and the saving power of God. Frankly, it is how I am so sure the Catholic faith is the true faith in that it survives us. I’m sure I’m not the only one. Yet, I love the Church and have hope for it’s survival through those with enough backbone to deal with the bureaucracy in the same way it deals with us. Sorry if it offends you, but mine and my children’s souls are at stake.

 

[puzzleannie]

In my diocese the age of confirmation varies from parish to parish. My parish confirms in the 8th grade. Our DRE wanted to change it to an older age, but there was much protest. My mother’s church confirms in High School. Holy Cross in Euclid does it before First Communion.

Can really comlicate things if you move across town.

two of my kids were confirmed in the Cleveland diocese, one in 8th grade, one in 11th, a third was confirmed in Youngstown in 11th grade, but the following year the age changed to 8th grade (my first year working with a confirmation program–what a zoo). A 4th child was confirmed in Detroit in 7th grade.

Cleveland was was one of a handful of dioceses given permission to experiment with “restoring the original order of the sacraments” so that you are quite right, practice varies from parish to parish, and confirmation can be all over the map, within the ages set by the US bishops, 7 to 18.

Some parishes were given permission to have confirmation before 1st communion, any time grade 2 and up (supposed to be for a limited period of time, and as I understand, the period for experimentation is supposed to be over and some firm rules were going to be set, but maybe they were waiting for the new bishop). A major abuse that came up was of course delaying first confession until after first communion, and I’ve heard that has been addressed.

The trouble is, that once something has been done one way for 2-3 years in a row, many Catholics consider that way “sacred tradition” and resist mightily if the rules change. Poster is quite right, practice in Cleveland diocese does vary (also parochial school children can be treated quite differently than PSR children in the same parish).

also like a lot of dioceses that have many Eastern Rite churches, where the practice of the early church, full initiation at baptism, has never been changed, two churches on the same street can have quite different practices.

the trend definitely seems to be toward a younger age for confirmation, and some very traditional dioceses and bishops–Denver Abp Chaput for example, have instituted this change. We had a diocesan synod with (name removed by moderator)ut from every parish, the decision was to retain 10th grade. That is the law as established by our bishop for Catholic baptized youth.

 

[H_Opey]

Cecil1
God Bless you. I can only imagine what you have gone through! We are in an OK parish, nothing like what you described! I suppose if it were like that here, I would be on the first plane to the nearest diocese that wasn’t soo bad. I can understand now why you did what you did.

jmcrae
I was equating confirmation age being at the later age because children left the RE at the parish if they were confirmed earlier. So, if we are educating our children, they are prepared and want to receive the sacrament, then why can’t an exception be made?
Example, We prepare our children for the sacrament of confirmation, they are confirmed in 6th grade, then they have no more religious education - at home or at the parish- then the fault lies with us, the parents. This other way, MAKING it mandatory that they attend the classes without the consideration if they are already prepared then making them WAIT til they are a senior because attendance would drop…seems like they are “hi jacking” (sorry that is the only word I could think of ) the sacrament.

I do understand it is the Bishop who administers the sacrament of confirmation. I know there is a difference between preparing someone and someone being confirmed.

I sure wish they would consider a younger age. I sure wish they would hold the parents more responsible, and maybe they do where you are.

 

[puzzleannie]

just to reiterate, formal religious education should continue throughout the school years, regardless of the age when sacraments are celebrated, and of course, adults should seek out continuing education, bible study etc. One of the reasons bishops are experimenting with the age for sacraments is to fight the mentality that RE=Sacramental Preparation, and sacraments are a graduation rite from CCD.

 

[hasikelee]

HMm, this is an interesting subject for me, as my parents have always helped us receive the sacraments later rather than earlier.

I was confirmed at the age of 17 with my younger sister and brother.

The reasoning my mother would tell us is this: you prepare for heaven everyday, you prepare for Mass, you prepare for the seminary, you prepare for marriage. So, you have to prepare and pray for a period of time before receiving the sacraments.

I received the Eucharist when I was 9, too, by the way.

For some reason, I feel very happy about it and appreciate the fullness of the faith that my parents have witnessed and made available to me. I think the way and time I received the sacraments made it much more meaningful to me, and I also had more understanding than those around me.

 

[jmcrae]

Cecil1
God Bless you. I can only imagine what you have gone through! We are in an OK parish, nothing like what you described! I suppose if it were like that here, I would be on the first plane to the nearest diocese that wasn’t soo bad. I can understand now why you did what you did.

jmcrae
I was equating confirmation age being at the later age because children left the RE at the parish if they were confirmed earlier. So, if we are educating our children, they are prepared and want to receive the sacrament, then why can’t an exception be made?

You have educated your children about the Sacrament, yes. That’s fine, that’s good, that’s your role, and it’s a great thing to have done.

It’s the Bishop who decides when they receive the Sacrament itself. Being educated about the Sacrament is not the same thing as being ready for it.

Your children will (hopefully) review the information they learned about the Sacrament of Confirmation many times, before they actually receive this Sacrament.

This has nothing to do with the Bishop’s reason for making it later, although if that really is his reason (and not just someone’s theory on why he might be doing that) then it might be worth getting a meeting with him to talk about making an exception for your kids.

 

[H_Opey]

Thank you JMCRAE
I agree with you. They are not through by a long shot and will have reviewed, studied and then WHEN the Bishop decides we can, they will receive the sacrament.

 

[KCT]

for the last time, the decision on the age for Confirmation rests with the BISHOP, not the pastor, not the DRE, not the parish secretary. Please don’t blame us for trying to do our jobs. quote]

I’m glad you do your job. I have always obeyed and prayed for my Bishop.

I guess I find it interesting that the Bishop thinks second graders can understand Eucharist but middle schoolers can’t understand Confirmation.

Did my kids receive the sacraments according to diocesan guidelines? Yes they did. Do I wish Confirmation were earlier? Yes I do. —KCT

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

You have educated your children about the Sacrament, yes. That’s fine, that’s good, that’s your role, and it’s a great thing to have done.

It’s the Bishop who decides when they receive the Sacrament itself. Being educated about the Sacrament is not the same thing as being ready for it.

just what it says,
the bishop calls the candidates for confirmation, just as he calls the catechumens for election, that is his ancient perogative from the early days of the Church, and is essential in understanding the theology of the sacrament of confirmation, why the practice of confirmation developed somewhat differently in the west than chrismation did in the east, why confirmation became separated in time (although not in theology) from baptism, and why the bishop is the one and only person who can say when you will be confirmed.

Whoever pointed out that confirmation is a completion of baptism was more on the mark than arguments about “readiness” for confirmation. I know we have lots of commonplaces about just what Confirmation is and does, but the historical fact of the matter is that a “theology of confirmation” doesn’t exist to anywhere near the extent of our theologies for most of the other sacraments. In fact, Confirmation is typically referred to by academics as a sacrament without a theology. For a considerable time in our early history, confirmation was done much more than it was reflected upon. The various manners of doing are part of the reason we wound up with different intuitions about the sacrament. The Western delay for Confirmation arose out of purely geographic concerns - not worries about maturity or knowledge or free choice. The fact that we have later rationalized our practice with appeals to maturity does nothing to affect the essence of the sacrament, and our practice informs us that infants and 7-year-olds are just as “ready” to receive Confirmation as 75-year-olds.

The big question of the thread, though, is what we should do when bishops refuse to confirm children earlier than the age they have chosen to mandate for the diocese, and I happen to think they have no business refusing reasonable requests for the sacraments. By reasonable I mean requests 1) by those who fulfill the canonical and spiritual requirements for reception and 2) that require no extraordinary effort. Granted, the bishop can set the age at which the sacrament is normally conferred in his diocese, so in the strict sense of conformity with the canons the bishop’s decision stands (this would not prevent seeking confirmation from another bishop, because he may confirm anyone from another diocese absent explicit disapproval by the individual’s ordinary).

At the same time, why deny someone who desires the graces of the sacrament (to which they are entitled by law) and who is sufficiently knowledgeable - possible at the age of reason - the grace of full initiation? We seem to be clinging to a very modern theological construct which we admit to be entirely non-essential to the sacrament (as evidenced by our own law and recognition of Eastern practice) and that any glance at history will also show to be fairly novel, insofar as the age of confirmation is steadily creeping. Only a hundred years ago the confirmation age in the US would have been much younger on average than it is today. Especially because bishops tend to receive so few requests for early confirmation, it would seem pretty easy to let those few get confirmed alongside those in standard formation.

 

[puzzleannie]

g. Only a hundred years ago the confirmation age in the US would have been much younger on average than it is today. n.

up until about 100 years ago, when Pope Pius X lowered the age of 1st communion to about 7 or 8, the nearly universal practice in Europe and America was to confirm and give first communion to children at an age the corresponded with the end of their formal religious education. It came to be about 14 (corresponding to our 8th grade) because that was about the time most working class youth left school and went to work. Whether the good pope had a plan for confirmation that was not carried out, or for whatever reason, that sacrament of initiation was left hanging, except in mission territories where often confirmation and baptism were given at the same time even for infants. The theology (or “what should we teach the parents”) changed over time to reflect the essentially cultural change in the timing of the sacraments.

Until such time as we return to the ancient practice still followed in the East, all 3 sacraments of initiation being just that, we will follow the guidelines of our local bishops, obediently, humbly and gratefully, as we do on all other matters within his purview.

 

[jmcrae]

Andreas;

Is it not true for all of the Sacraments that it is not the individual, nor his relatives and friends, who decide when or whether someone is to receive a Sacrament, but rather, the Church?

This is why some adults have to wait for Baptism until after they have completed RCIA; why some baptized Converts have to wait for First Confession until after they have been received by the Bishop in the Rite of Welcome, and why some women, though feeling called, will never become priests - because the Church is not (yet, or at all) accepting them for these Sacraments. It has little or nothing to do with how the individual feels or what they know, or what they think they know, or how much smarter they are than the Church and God.

 

[H_Opey]

We asked, as per our priest, the Bishop if our children could be confirmed early OVER a year ago and we now have our response.
NO.
To sum it up, it is the Bishops feeling as well as our priest that the kids need to be part of a community, a CLASS, they get soo much more that way with what the sacrament really means (his words/feelings not mine).

We are moving to another diocese. We are all hurt and confused and ready to move to some place else and would like your prayers please. Thanks to all who helped us, with questions and stuff. Thanks Puzzleannie.

 

[puzzleannie]

We are moving to another diocese. We are all hurt and confused and ready to move to some place else and would like your prayers please. Thanks to all who helped us, with questions and stuff. Thanks Puzzleannie.

I hope this issue is not the reason for your move. unless it is a diocese that has restored the original order of the sacraments of initiation (Denver for instance) you will probably run into the same thinking.

In any case, an essential part of preparation for Confirmation for youth is recognition of their rights and obligations as members of the whole Church, their parish community and their diocese. The fundamental obligation is that of obedience to the bishop. If during their sacramental preparation, for whaterver reason (and poor parish programs have been to blame sometimes) the youth picks up the idea that the bishop is someone who makes suggestions, not binding rules, and is there only as a figure head to be defied when personal preference collides with his teaching, that youth is being led into a very dangerous way of thining and viewing his place in the Church.

 

[H_Opey]

I hope this issue is not the reason for your move. unless it is a diocese that has restored the original order of the sacraments of initiation (Denver for instance) you will probably run into the same thinking.

In any case, an essential part of preparation for Confirmation for youth is recognition of their rights and obligations as members of the whole Church, their parish community and their diocese. The fundamental obligation is that of obedience to the bishop. If during their sacramental preparation, for whaterver reason (and poor parish programs have been to blame sometimes) the youth picks up the idea that the bishop is someone who makes suggestions, not binding rules, and is there only as a figure head to be defied when personal preference collides with his teaching, that youth is being led into a very dangerous way of thining and viewing his place in the Church.

Our move right now is because of this and other things. If we go ahead and move now, we can become established in a parish. We are also looking for a parish/diocese that is “friendly” to homeschoolers. WE, my husband and I, were given the responsiblity, duty and charged with the education of our children in faith. The age for confirmation is all over the board in our diocese although it is stated that 11th and 12th graders are the usual age there are parishes that have been given persmission to have this earlier (not close enough to join). The priest and Bishop can take this into consideration, not opinion. I hope we are not teaching our children that the Bishop’s word is opinion, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be considered, reconsidered etc. We had felt part of the community and parish until what he said last night. It is hard being a homeschooler in this area.
And as far as the preparation at our church for confirmation is lacking, especially if the DRE and teacher sums it up as referring to the sacrament as a “coming of age”.
Thanks

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Our diocese used to confirm at 8th grade. (I was confirmed in another one in 7th years ago.) The bishop changed it to 10th grade. Yes, it does ensure that those students receiving the sacrament are in official CCD classes for two more years and it doesn’t end at 8th grade. But I’m sorry my next daughter has been deprived of the graces of the sacrament during a critical time of peer pressure and emotional development.

And I know dioceses that are very welcoming to homeschoolers. But even in those dioceses, very traditional priests still mandate that the homeschooled students be in the CCD class during the year they receive the big sacraments. Don’t be surprised if you run into that.