Confirmation - can you change your sponsor after the fact?

[TheLittleLady]

When she is ready, when she needs it, talk about a healing retreat:

http://www.rachelsvineyard.org.au/index.html

 

[CRV]

I hope your intent behind your reply to my comment was not sarcasm …

Not all things are documented as you ask. Not all of Jesus’s teachings were documented either. Some things are tradition or long standing customs.

Perhaps you can cite documents that relieve either godparents or confirmants’ of their duties in the event of the catholic parent/s being deceased.
Or are their part in these Sacraments of no significance but instead along the lines of a brides’ bridesmaids - ie part of the ceremony and nothing more.?

 

[CRV]

The Sacrament of Confirmation Sponsors
Cann 892 "Insofar as possible, there is to be a sponsor for the person to be confirmed; the sponsor is to take care that the confirmed person behaves as a true witness of Christ and faithfully fulfills the obligations inherent in this sacrament.

The Sacrament of Baptism Sponsors
Cann. 872 “Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it.”

So how is this to be done? Unless these people for example, take on the teaching of the faith, if live close by for example take the child to church, and do for this other as the parents would. To me this is clear what these people are to do if they parents do not raise the child in the faith or after the parents die - they then in these circumstances are to ensure the godchild/confirmant faithfully fulfills their Catholic obligations.

 

[Gorgias]

I hope your intent behind your reply to my comment was not sarcasm …

No, it was an honest request.

Not all things are documented as you ask. Not all of Jesus’s teachings were documented either. Some things are tradition or long standing customs.

Ok… so, your response is that it’s not “legend”, it’s “tradition”? Meh… I can live with that. In other words, it’s not what the Church teaches, but it’s something that some people believe. Fair enough.

Perhaps you can cite documents that relieve either godparents or confirmants’ of their duties in the event of the catholic parent/s being deceased.

That’s not how it works. You made a claim; it’s up to you to back it up.

Or are their part in these Sacraments of no significance but instead along the lines of a brides’ bridesmaids - ie part of the ceremony and nothing more.?

Straw man. That’s not what I said.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Yes, we select people to be examples and teachers. Sometimes (more often than not) those people fail, they sin. We do not base our faith on one person, be they our sponsor or our priest or our best friend, we know that when people fail, God is faithful.

 

[CRV]

That’s not how it works. You made a claim; it’s up to you to back it up.

I did - I stated the facts. You stated/claimed that wasn’t so, that it was only “legend”. So then it is upon you to prove it isn’t. And as you demanded that I present documented proof of the official practice of the Church - which I complied with by citing Canon Law - then please return the courtesy by citing official Church law that states a godparents/sponsors obligations end at the cessation of the celebration of the Sacrament - to back up your claim.

I quoted cannon law. Those are facts - official Church teaching which is the proof you demanded I provide.

But perhaps you are confusing the secular law with church law? In the event of a parents death, the person nominated in the parents will (assuming they had a will and assuming they thought to make provisions in those circumstances) the nominated person/s will become that childs’ legal guardian.

That is separate to the promises made by the godparent at baptism. Please refer to what the Church teaches regarding this as stated under Canon Law.

If this legal guardian does not wish the child in their care to be instructed in the Faith or to practice their Faith (for whatever reason), then the obligation on the godparent/sponsor ceases. The impossible is not binding. God does not expect the impossible. E.g. the genuine inability to get to Sunday Mass (we’re obliged to), ceases to bind us if it is not possible.

Straw man. That’s not what I said.

True you did not state it as such. But the implication of what you did say, implied that these roles incurred no further obligation on the part of the godparent/sponsor in these circumstances, which is simply not true.

The Church has Divine Law as well as Canon Law. I can’t do much to help you if you refuse to accept what is stated in Canon Law. To me the laws I quoted are plain and clear.

 

[Gorgias]

I did - I stated the facts.

Actually, you simply made a claim.

And as you demanded that I present documented proof of the official practice of the Church - which I complied with by citing Canon Law

You mean your citation of c. 1311? All that shows is that sponsors offer spiritual help, and that it can be appropriate that a godparent can be a confirmation sponsor. In no way does your assertion back up your claim about what happens when a parent dies. So, we’re back to square one: do you have anything from the Church that states that godparents take over when parents die? If so, you haven’t presented it here.

I quoted cannon law. Those are facts - official Church teaching which is the proof you demanded I provide.

Perhaps I missed it, although I reviewed the thread. Did you present canon law that backs up your claims vis-a-vis sponsor duties to orphans? If not, then you didn’t provide “official Church teaching which is the proof” of your claims.

That is separate to the promises made by the godparent at baptism. Please refer to what the Church teaches regarding this as stated under Canon Law.

There are no “promises”, per se, “as stated under canon law”. However, canon 872 asserts simply that the sponsor:

• assists an adult at the baptism, or presents an infant for baptism
• helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life and to fulfill the obligations inherent in it

True you did not state it as such.

Then please don’t assert that I did.

I can’t do much to help you if you refuse to accept what is stated in Canon Law. To me the laws I quoted are plain and clear.

Perhaps they are. However, they don’t assert what you say they do.

 

[CRV]

With all due respect I suggest you speak to a canon lawyer.

For some reason when I try to insert a quote it is inserting the whole conversation instead of the few words I’ve selected, though on my typing side it is only the selected text, yet when saved and I re-read the posted thread there is just your username - blank - with an arrow pointing up or down at the right hand end, and if clicking on this arrow the whole post is showing So I am manually quoting you below.

Quote:- "You mean your citation of c.1311"

Actually, no, that’s CCC 1311

Quote:- "Perhaps I missed it, although I reviewed the thread"

Obviously you did miss it - go back and re-read my posts above.

I cited Cannon Laws 892 and 872 which clearly state the sponsor of the confirmand and the sponsor of the baptized person are to take care that the person faithfully fulfills the obligations inherent in these sacraments.

There is no time or circumstance restrictions placed on these assistance to faithfully fulfill the obligations. If there was then these would be noted/stipulated in the law. I guess those writing these laws believed the implication was clear and easily understood and didn’t need qualifying. If there was a time or circumstance restriction it would be noted under the relevant cannon.

In the event of the legal guardian of the said child blocks the instruction or participation of the Faith (perhaps by court order etc), the obligation on the part of the sponsor/godparent still remains, even though these people are prevented from fulfilling their obligations by civil law. Under these circumstances the sponsors in these sacraments are obliged (even if only out of basic charity, but more so due to the roles they took on in these Sacraments) to continue to pray for this young person.

Quote:- "helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life and to fulfill the obligations inherent in it"

that is pretty clear to me. Nothing ambiguous there.

The obligations of a Catholic are bound for life, no? So therefore the sponsors role to assist this person also is without restrictions, though generally it is accepted that once a person reaches adulthood and is fully and correctly formed in the faith, then the sponsor/godparent takes more of a backseat in the role apart from still leading by example, praying for this person, offering guidance when needed etc.

As you clearly are refusing to accept anything I do say, ie refusing to “see”, then there is nothing more I can say, as even quoting Church Canon Law, does not satisfy you.

May I recommend you make enquiries of a Canon Lawyer/Priest yourself?

I have and checked all this with a cannon lawyer who is also a priest today, and what I’ve said about the obligations continuing - he confirmed for me was correct.

So have a nice day.

God bless.

 

[Gorgias]

There is no time or circumstance restrictions placed on these assistance to faithfully fulfill the obligations.

Nor is there anything there which suggests that the obligations change when a person is orphaned, which is what you’ve been claiming. If you’re gonna suggest that canon law supports your argument, it should probably at least address your argument, wouldn’t you say?

As you clearly are refusing to accept anything I do say, ie refusing to “see”, then there is nothing more I can say, as even quoting Church Canon Law, does not satisfy you.

You’re moving the goalposts now, it seems. Since you cannot substantiate your claim about sponsors’ obligations to orphans, you’re now trying to use the notion of “life-long obligation” to prop up your claim. It isn’t really working.

I have and checked all this with a cannon lawyer who is also a priest today, and what I’ve said about the obligations continuing - he confirmed for me was correct.

Continuing… “for life”? Or continuing… “as a role that becomes an obligation if the parents die before the child reaches the age of adulthood”? After all, that was the claim you made back in post 11 and which spawned this whole mini-conversation. Did your canon lawyer / priest friend address that assertion (of “new obligation in the case of orphans”), or merely the less relevant one about a “life-long role”?

You have a nice day, too! I’d love to hear what answer you get from your canon lawyer / priest friend when you actually ask the question that will either substantiate or disprove the claim you originally made!

(Edited to add:

For the sake of clarity: I’m not asking what kind of pastoral care, based in Christian charity, should people take when friends pass away, leaving minor children orphaned. Rather, I’m asking the question that you addressed: what in canon law or Church teaching specifically dictates that sponsors of orphaned minor children have imposed upon them a new obligation upon the death of their godchild’s parents?)