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ames61
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One more, then I’ll quit. 
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Hesychios
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I realize this, it pertains to the Latin church and is not universally practiced among Catholic churches. There really is no doctrinal/theological basis for this rule, it is simply how it’s been for quite a while.One more, then I’ll quit.
The Byzantine Catholics have returned to communing infants, and most of the other Eastern Catholic churches do so as well now. It’s all a matter of canon law, which is nothing more than a regulatory device in this case.
If the Western church should decide to commune infants it should not be that difficult to change the canons. Personally I believe the reception of the Eucharist at an early age has tremendous advantages for the person. The current practice is like excommunicating the innocent.
Nevertheless, if the western church will prefer to delay communion until the darling little ones are old enough to make a good confession, so be it. I would then suggest that the confirmation and first communion take place together in the same event!
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ames61
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Yeah, I was assuming that KCT was in a Latin Rite church, and now I notice she’s in MD, where my sister in law is and where her two kids didn’t have to go to confession prior to communion.
Right, but until then, I get a bit queasy in parishes or dioceses where very influential people make decisions which are diametrically opposed to the ruling norm. The CCC, Code of Canon Law and most recent promulgation by the Congregation for Divine Liturgy are all in agreement. Where’s the possible crutch for the position of delaying 1st reconciliation? My point was more about obedience to existing norms.
I definitely like the idea of confirmation with first communion. And I don’t mind the idea of doing all three at baptism, like Eastern Rite. My understanding was that the Latin Rite separated Confirmation originally because the Bishop was the ordinary minister of confirmation, and wasn’t always around during baptisms to confirm the infant, but that in the Eastern Rite, the priest could exercise the sacrament of confirmation. Out of curiosity, do infants continue to receive, or do they wait for their second communion until later, and if so, when?
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Hesychios
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Yes, they would continue to recieve from that point forward.
This sometimes raises difficulties when Eastern Catholics have no choice but to attend a Roman Catholic church. Many EMC’s and some priests will not commune the children, although the church policy is that they have the right, since they are already communicants in their own particular church. It amounts to a lack of understanding, but the local Ordinary is charged with the responsibilty of providing for the needs of Eastern Catholics within their jurisdictions.
When the issue rises to the bishop on appeal, the routine response is to order the priest to commune the children.
Eastern Catholics are also not to repeat the first communion and must not be confirmed twice. In times past there have been cases where the Catholic school would try to force the children to undergo all of the ceremonial with their classmates, and some teachers would resist the explanations coming from parents.
I only state these things to perhaps enlighten a few readers who may know of children in this situation.
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Michael
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KCT
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There is a local parish that used to do Communion in 2nd grade and penance in 4th. It’s the parish we left because of blessings given “in the name of the father, the mother and the holy spirit”. I’m hoping they’ve changed. —KCT
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ames61
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Sounds close to her parish. My sis in law was convinced that she has attended a mass presided by a deacon. I tried to explain to her the difference between mass and communion service. She says they receive the Precious Blood at these services. I noticed at mass there, excess Precious Blood was not consumed at the altar (in the middle of the gymnasium style sanctuary) but carried outside, I assumed to be consumed, but maybe to be reserved for these Communion services? Oy.
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Hesychios
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The news of these liturgical irregularities is very disturbing to easterners who are informed very quickly these days through these internet discussion groups.
At one level it is incumbant upon us all to dialog to resolve our differences formally. We need to find common ground and build upon it, we need to challenge our own long held positions and see if we cannot learn how we have drifted apart so much and make needed corrections (that goes for both the east and the west). What the church claims to teach and do is quite clear, the canons are published as is the catechism and many encyclicals. So it would be quite a big enough task for an Orthodox or Jacobite Christian to wrestle with no more than that.
But on an entirely different level the western church almost seems to be unraveling, and all the world reads about it right here. This means that we have to deal with a church with two faces: what it claims to be and what it shows the world. This is a moving target and no one knows what will come of it.
There is gathering concern that it is unsafe to deal with the western church in such circumstances.
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Michael
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otm
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And what makes you think it isn’t broken?
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otm
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There are three sacraments of Initiation: Baptism, Eucharist and Confirmation.
The Sacrament of Reconciliation should begin at the age of reason - generally the age of 7.
Because in the Roman Rite the Sacrament of the Eucharist is not received until the age of reason, it is entirely appropriate that the Sacrament of Reconcilliation precede it. Contrary to those who seem to be of the opinion that sin no longer exists, it is possible that a child, having reached the age of reason, could knowingly commit a mortal sin. Although it may not be very likely at all, it is a real possiblity. Further, introducing the Sacrament of Reconcilliation should bring awareness of the admonishian of St paul to not receive unworthily.
Introducing the Sacrament of Confirmation earlier should have nothing to do with reception fo the Sacrament of Reconcilliation or its relation to the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
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otm
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The western church would appear to be unraveling if one were to look at only the western church in Europe - it might be more correct to say that it had unraveled. However, the western church is the United States is still considered to be the most vibrant (and it appears to be growing again, although not be leape and bounds); the western church in South and Central America is the largest in the world; and the western church in Africa is the fastest growing. So it all depends where you look.
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otm
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Confirmation has rightly been called the Sacrament in search of a theology. There are at least 5, if not seven, different theological explanations of the Sacrament, some of which are sopmewhat similar.
Moving it forward towards Baptism makes sense, as it is one of the three Sacraments of Initiaion. Waiting for 12 to 16 years before the last Sacrament of Initiation is received leaves it with little real sense of initiation. As others have stated, it is often seen by the recipient, as well as on-lookers, as some sort of graduation or final rite of passage.
Moving it forward towards Baptism makes sense, as it is one of the three Sacraments of Initiaion. Waiting for 12 to 16 years before the last Sacrament of Initiation is received leaves it with little real sense of initiation. As others have stated, it is often seen by the recipient, as well as on-lookers, as some sort of graduation or final rite of passage.
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MariaG
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Personally, I like the practice of infant baptism, first communion and confirmation. I wish the western Church would do it also.
I know that the reason I was brought into the Catholic Church was due to the grace given to me at baptism since I certainly did not learn anything after the age 4 when my mother got mad and left the Church, any church. No Catholic learning at all, no parochial school, go to a Bible alone Church and I suddenly know I can’t receive communion in an Evangelical church because they don’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ. How is that for a miraculous work of God:thumbsup:
I can’t but help think that the grace those Sacraments make available would make it easier for kids to sin and more likely to stay in the Catholic Church.
When do infants who receive communion go to their first reconcilliation? Is it at 7? Earlier? Later?
I know that the reason I was brought into the Catholic Church was due to the grace given to me at baptism since I certainly did not learn anything after the age 4 when my mother got mad and left the Church, any church. No Catholic learning at all, no parochial school, go to a Bible alone Church and I suddenly know I can’t receive communion in an Evangelical church because they don’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ. How is that for a miraculous work of God:thumbsup:
I can’t but help think that the grace those Sacraments make available would make it easier for kids to sin and more likely to stay in the Catholic Church.
When do infants who receive communion go to their first reconcilliation? Is it at 7? Earlier? Later?
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otm
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I presume you meant easier for kids to avoid sin…
I do not know what the practice is in the Eastern Churches which practice infant Eucharist, but can see no reason that it should not start at the age of reason, should we shift the timeing of First Communion.
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ames61
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Exactly the point I was trying to make. My question was how do those who put the sacrament of reconciliation AFTER the reception of first communion reconcile this choice with the very clear instruction by the Latin Rite Church to have the sacrament of reconciliation PRECEDE the reception of first communion.
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MariaG
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Yeah. That was a nasty miss on editing!I did mean I think it would be easier for children** not** to sin.
And although it is logical for first reconcilliation to then be administered at the age of reason, around 7, I was just wondering if that is what happens.
I mean if a child is already receiving, I think it may be a much more individual thing. Some kids understand very early and a parent may wish for them to go to reconcilliation sooner if they are already receiving as per the Eastern Tradition.
God Bless,
Maria
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a_pilgrim
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All three of my children were baptized and chrismated (confirmed) in the Byzantine Catholic Church, but received their formal religious education through our local Latin Catholic Church. It did, in fact, require a bit of explaining on our part to convince their respective RE instructors that they had actually been confirmed as infants and could not receive the sacrament a second time.
With regard to my two older children (now 24 and 22), they participated in all of the confirmation preparations and, indeed, in the ceremony itself, with the rest of their classmates. In each case I spoke to the confirming bishop beforehand to alert him to the fact that they were Eastern Catholic children, already confirmed. Rather than “re-confirm” them as they approached, he gave them his blessing instead.
With regard to our youngest child (now 15), we, once again, had to do some heavy-duty convincing of his teachers that he had, indeed, already received the sacrament. This time, however, we opted to forego his participation in the preparations for the sacrament that the rest of the class did and in the ceremony itself, since we decided not to perpetuate a view of this sacrament that conflicted with those of our own particular Church sui iuris and, in fact, with our own personal beliefs regarding the sacrament. We instead impressed upon him, on our own, the fact that his initiation into the Church was already complete, whereas that of his Latin classmates was not.
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