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surritter
Guest
Annie, apparently the OP thought it was an issue because the question said that the parish “expects” the fee.
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TrueLight
Guest
I agree when it comes to weddings.
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1ke
Guest
The OP isn’t talking about parish sacramental prep fees for books and materials, the OP is talking about the fee (stipend, offering, whatever you want to label it) that goes to the bishop.
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pat_mc_1
Guest
Isnt that basically paying for a sacrament and isnt that breaking canon law?
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surritter
Guest
No. It is supposed to be a free-will offering, so it’s not like receiving the sacrament hinges on the offering. It’s sort of a thank-you gift to God through the Church, and since it’s so common it has become a custom. But you’re right in a sense: it shouldn’t be presented as such an integral part of the sacrament because it could appear to be simony by some.
I’m sure if you dig through the forums there are threads about Mass stipends; that is in the same ballpark, but it’s well-regulated by the Church and you can find better explanations there.
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puzzleannie
Guest
he did not say what “expects” means, and he did not say why that nominal some, which barely covers the actual costs involved, is an issue.
repeat until my tongue falls off
no this is not charging for a sacrament, it is charging for just what the parish says it is the ancillary expenses involved. If it is a hardship has he even asked the pastor to waive the donation?
and yes there is a set stipend a parish has to pay whenever the bishop, or any other priest comes into the parish for sacraments, and it is not unreasonable to ask those receiving sacraments to contribute for that purpose. Repeat, has OP asked his pastor about it?
can anyone who periodically raises this issue prove that someone was denied a sacrament because he did not pay a fee of some kind (I don’t mean anecdotes I mean proof)
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TrueLight
Guest
Honestly, if I am a member of a parish where I am contributing financially on a regular basis, I would expect that any cost for confirmation would be covered by the Parish.
FYI, My son received a scholarship from my old Protestant church.
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puzzleannie
Guest
perhaps, and so would I, that is our practice here, but every year at the last meeting I will be asked, “what is an appropriate donation” and I will answer “whatever you care to give” and I will be pushed for an answer so I will suggest an amount based on our regular CCD donation (we aren’t allowed to call it a fee), which is $25. And they pay $20 for the retreat because they eat a phenomenal amount of food. My guess is the “expects” at OPs parish may be more of a suggestion in response to such questions but unless he asks, we won’t know that.
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creole54
Guest
How wonderful for you that you are able to consider $50 a ‘nominal sum’. Unfortunately, there are hundreds of thousands of people in America right now to whom $50 is a significant amount.
I went through RCIA last year and was only asked to pay for my catechism book which was somewhere between $20 -$30. I’m a widow with a disabled son. I know if I had said anything about not being able to afford the book they would have just given it to me without a second thought.
What confuses me is the talk about a fee for the bishop. Do you mean that the bishop receives money directly in his pocket for confirming people? Each one? Do you know how many people get confirmed just in my diocese every spring? He’s got to be making money hand over fist if that’s true. I really hope this isn’t true.
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1ke
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1ke
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I am not being nasty.
I am really tired of people assuming terrible things about our Church and bishops.
If someone wants to know where the money given goes they can call their parish or diocese and ASK.
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Pax2u
Guest
Why do you say the poster was assuming terrible things about the Church? The statement was he/she hoped it wasn’t true. To someone who genuinely doesn’t understand/know the procedure, from reading the preceeding posts, it could be easily misunderstood. I believe you didn’t mean to be nasty, but it came across to me that way.
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Philomeena
Guest
When you say “whatever you care to give” it sends the message that they should give. I wish you did not feel pressured to come up with an amount but instead explained (if you are at a diocesan parish) that your pastor receives a salary and that stipends are no longer the way a priest receives any money so it is not necessary or expected.
I was faced with the same thing when I volunteered with RCIA and that is how we handled it. It is not necessary and it is not expected. period. If someone truly desires to do that, then fine. They should give what they want, not what they think they “should”. It is not necessary.
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1ke
Guest
Yes, they **should **give.
Perhaps this quote from Bishop Soto, Diocese of Sacramento will help people understand the relationship between the reception of the sacrament and the offering we make:
The Catholic faithful are also encouraged to bring their offering to the altar. (Mt. 5.23; Acts 2.44-46; I Cor. 16.1-4) These gestures express one’s gratitude to God. The portion one returns to the Lord recognizes that all good things come from Him. The offering also expresses our collaboration in the building up of the Kingdom. The extensive sacramental, teaching, and charitable works of the Church are a reflection of the generous, sacrificial offerings of the People of God.
This is balanced, of course, by what they *can *give. Which is why the Church sets guidelines for maximums, what the monies are used for, etc, but does not require an monetary offering. The offering is not in exchange for, but in thanksgiving for, the sacrament.
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Philomeena
Guest
It sounds to me like the bishop receives a fee from each parish, whether or not that is based on the number of confirmandi, I am not sure.
Since he is the Ordinary for Confirmation, I am not sure why this should be.
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1ke
Guest
OK, here you go:
Mass offerings - $10 per Mass. The priest keeps this money, but may only receive money for one Mass per day (except Christmas when he may receive three). If the priest says more than one Mass a day, the offerings for those additional masses go to the *works of charity fund *of the parish. The Mass offerings is a separate bank account and is not comingled with parish funds. A register of mass offerings received, masses said, and offerings paid out is strictly kept. This is per canon law and particular law of the diocese.
Offerings for sacraments and funerals go to the *works of charity funds *of the parish (or in the case of confirmation, to the bishop’s works of charity fund). If the person receiving the sacrament spontaneously gives an additional gift to the priest, he may accept and keep it but may not solicit one. The diocese typically sets the suggested offering amount and maximums that cannot be exceeded.
Monies associated with the private use of the church and possibly services of staff – weddings. etc-- go to the funds for upkeep and maintenance of the Church or works of charity
Our works of charity fund receives monies from baptisms, weddings, and funerals, and we use it for local works of charity such as if someone’s house burns down, someone has a medical bill, local disaster relief fundraisers, etc.
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puzzleannie
Guest
no that is not at all what is meant. All priests including bishops get a nominal stipend when they travel to another parish to say Mass or confect sacraments, think 2 or 3 figures, not “making money hand over fist”. He gets one stipend for the visit, not multiple stipends based on how many participate. that is by no means the largest expense connected with Confirmation. As you correctly observe nobody is going to keep you away if you cannot afford a donation, but we don’t read minds, so speak up, that way we won’t annoy you by asking.
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perla_m
Guest
First of all, I would like to thank everyone for their responses and information. My reason for posting was as I mentioned, to see if this was considered to be a “normal” practise or not, because I didn’t know. I’m not personally concerned about the money…I’ll explain more at the end of the post.
I should probably clarify a few things, just to be clear on the circumstances:
My fiance and I both paid the offering - we are fortunate that it wasn’t a problem for us. I didn’t ask the question because I was personally unable to pay, although I now realise that I probably gave that impression.
We were told (we didn’t ask or anything like that - they just explained that to us when they told us about the offering) that it would cover decorations for the church, four food baskets for the bishop, plus the offering/stipend for the bishop. (I don’t know if anyone is familiar with the food baskets - I don’t know if that is done where any of you live. I think that people used to give food donations for things like Confirmations and weddings rather than money until around 50 years ago. This area was very poor in those days and the average person simply wouldn’t have had money to give. This is a tradition that has continued, although I assume that the contents of the baskets are now purchased from stores.) Once we paid the 40 EUR (around $50) each, the person who was collecting the money then told us that we could also make an offering to the priest, but that it was a “free” offering, and that there was no suggested amount. We haven’t decided if we are going to give a separate offering to the priest - I’m undecided about it. On one hand, I think that the offering that we already made should be sufficient, but I would feel bad about not giving anything to our priest.
In terms of costs for the Confirmation, the costs incurred by the parish, other than those mentioned above, would simply be the general costs associated with having a mass: basically, having the lights on and that kind of thing. (We don’t have heaters, cleaning services, music directors, paid organ players, church secretaries, or that kind of thing. We also don’t have mass bulletins - we do everything by memory.
)
We didn’t have any official courses or retreats or anything like that beforehand - the priest holds informal talks one evening a week, and told people to try to show up for a few of those as preparation for the Confirmation. We also had two meetings that were kind of “rehersals” for the mass in which we will be confirmed. No expenses were incurred by the parish for books or handouts or anything like that. We’ll wear our regular clothing - we aren’t expected to wear a uniform or anything like that.
Our priest is a parish priest, and definitely gets paid a monthly salary. I don’t know how much he earns, but it is definitely at least an average salary by local terms.
We are about 20 or 25 people being confirmed. If anyone is wondering why I am getting confirmed as an adult, it is a long story; but basically, I wasn’t religious during my teens and twenties.
The real reason that I was concerned about this is that a lot of people around here are of the opinion that the church is “all about the money,” and it turns them away from the Church and from Christ. My fiance felt that we were being asked for an unreasonable sum of money and got kind of upset, although he didn’t say anything at the church. (He happens to be one of those people who thinks that bishops and priests only care about getting offering money. He is getting confirmed because we can’t get married in the church if he doesn’t, and I insisted on a Catholic wedding rather than a civil ceremony.)
Our friends and relatives also thought that 20 EUR (around $25) per person would have been more reasonable. (I should mention that I live in a society where I’m sorry to say that there is a lot of corruption and dishonesty…not specifically in the church, but in all areas of life, so I guess people are very “sensitive” about these kinds of things, and sceptical every time they are asked for money. It is just a result of the society.)
I’ll conclude with one final question: Based on what I have described, should I give an extra offering to the priest? I know that it isn’t technically “required,” but what would you do in my place?
I apologise for the length of this post, and I hope that it was clear and not too confusing. I read these forums a lot, and find them to be a great source of information, but I rarely post because I really prefer discussing/asking about things in person!
I should probably clarify a few things, just to be clear on the circumstances:
My fiance and I both paid the offering - we are fortunate that it wasn’t a problem for us. I didn’t ask the question because I was personally unable to pay, although I now realise that I probably gave that impression.
We were told (we didn’t ask or anything like that - they just explained that to us when they told us about the offering) that it would cover decorations for the church, four food baskets for the bishop, plus the offering/stipend for the bishop. (I don’t know if anyone is familiar with the food baskets - I don’t know if that is done where any of you live. I think that people used to give food donations for things like Confirmations and weddings rather than money until around 50 years ago. This area was very poor in those days and the average person simply wouldn’t have had money to give. This is a tradition that has continued, although I assume that the contents of the baskets are now purchased from stores.) Once we paid the 40 EUR (around $50) each, the person who was collecting the money then told us that we could also make an offering to the priest, but that it was a “free” offering, and that there was no suggested amount. We haven’t decided if we are going to give a separate offering to the priest - I’m undecided about it. On one hand, I think that the offering that we already made should be sufficient, but I would feel bad about not giving anything to our priest.
In terms of costs for the Confirmation, the costs incurred by the parish, other than those mentioned above, would simply be the general costs associated with having a mass: basically, having the lights on and that kind of thing. (We don’t have heaters, cleaning services, music directors, paid organ players, church secretaries, or that kind of thing. We also don’t have mass bulletins - we do everything by memory.
)We didn’t have any official courses or retreats or anything like that beforehand - the priest holds informal talks one evening a week, and told people to try to show up for a few of those as preparation for the Confirmation. We also had two meetings that were kind of “rehersals” for the mass in which we will be confirmed. No expenses were incurred by the parish for books or handouts or anything like that. We’ll wear our regular clothing - we aren’t expected to wear a uniform or anything like that.
Our priest is a parish priest, and definitely gets paid a monthly salary. I don’t know how much he earns, but it is definitely at least an average salary by local terms.
We are about 20 or 25 people being confirmed. If anyone is wondering why I am getting confirmed as an adult, it is a long story; but basically, I wasn’t religious during my teens and twenties.
The real reason that I was concerned about this is that a lot of people around here are of the opinion that the church is “all about the money,” and it turns them away from the Church and from Christ. My fiance felt that we were being asked for an unreasonable sum of money and got kind of upset, although he didn’t say anything at the church. (He happens to be one of those people who thinks that bishops and priests only care about getting offering money. He is getting confirmed because we can’t get married in the church if he doesn’t, and I insisted on a Catholic wedding rather than a civil ceremony.)
Our friends and relatives also thought that 20 EUR (around $25) per person would have been more reasonable. (I should mention that I live in a society where I’m sorry to say that there is a lot of corruption and dishonesty…not specifically in the church, but in all areas of life, so I guess people are very “sensitive” about these kinds of things, and sceptical every time they are asked for money. It is just a result of the society.)
I’ll conclude with one final question: Based on what I have described, should I give an extra offering to the priest? I know that it isn’t technically “required,” but what would you do in my place?
I apologise for the length of this post, and I hope that it was clear and not too confusing. I read these forums a lot, and find them to be a great source of information, but I rarely post because I really prefer discussing/asking about things in person!
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