Confirmation or Chrismation?

[labonnevivante]

Looking for suggestions:

I am an Anglican in the discernment/catechesis process. My fiance is Roman Catholic. Due to the issues within the Anglican church and my own journey of studying faith, I have been exploring Catholicism and Orthodoxy as the next step towards full participation in the sacraments (my Anglican parish is transitioning to Western Orthodoxy).

That said I am much more familiar with the Divine Liturgy and the practices of the Orthodox church so discovering the Eastern Rite is like coming home!

However…

How in the world do I become Catholic?

I have already been a valid baptism eons ago in a protestant church. I have attended a RCIA program in a large Roman Rite parish only to have very poor catechesis that was also antagonistic towards the “performance and accouterment” of the Eastern rite. I dropped out of RCIA right before the scrutinies this year because I was frustrated with the lack of discernment during the process.

A priest at the Byzantine parish we have been attending mentioned that because I have already been baptized as a protestant, I would have to come into the church under confirmation through the Roman Rite before coming to the Eastern Rite.

I am trying to find resources to learn more about this process and would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions-

1. How do I go about at this point finding a Roman Rite priest who would be able to explain the catechesis of the Eastern Rite and be willing to confirm me knowing that I would not be staying at that parish?
2. Are there any good Chrismation resources you might recommend to an adult coming into the Eastern church?
3. Any other thoughts or responses of someone who knows this process far better than I? If this is covered in another post, please let me know! I may not be searching with the right keywords!

 

[MorEphrem]

labonnevivante:

1. How do I go about at this point finding a Roman Rite priest who would be able to explain the catechesis of the Eastern Rite and be willing to confirm me knowing that I would not be staying at that parish?

Chances are you won’t. But there’s nothing stopping you from having a Byzantine priest catechize you - if you find a good one, they’ll do one-on-one sessions with you.

labonnevivante:

1. Are there any good Chrismation resources you might recommend to an adult coming into the Eastern church?

mliles.com/melkite/chrismation.shtml
Melkites in general have the best Byzantine sources in the US.

labonnevivante:

1. Any other thoughts or responses of someone who knows this process far better than I? If this is covered in another post, please let me know! I may not be searching with the right keywords!

Spend around 6-8 months in a Byzantine parish before you actually transfer.

 

[RyanBlack]

I believe the priest is mistaken. From what I understand, you would be canonically enrolled in the Latin Church on the basis of your Protestant baptism, but you can be chrismated in an Eastern Catholic Church.

 

[babochka]

Looking for suggestions:

I am an Anglican in the discernment/catechesis process. My fiance is Roman Catholic. Due to the issues within the Anglican church and my own journey of studying faith, I have been exploring Catholicism and Orthodoxy as the next step towards full participation in the sacraments (my Anglican parish is transitioning to Western Orthodoxy).

That said I am much more familiar with the Divine Liturgy and the practices of the Orthodox church so discovering the Eastern Rite is like coming home!

However…

How in the world do I become Catholic?

I have already been a valid baptism eons ago in a protestant church. I have attended a RCIA program in a large Roman Rite parish only to have very poor catechesis that was also antagonistic towards the “performance and accouterment” of the Eastern rite. I dropped out of RCIA right before the scrutinies this year because I was frustrated with the lack of discernment during the process.

A priest at the Byzantine parish we have been attending mentioned that because I have already been baptized as a protestant, I would have to come into the church under confirmation through the Roman Rite before coming to the Eastern Rite.

I am trying to find resources to learn more about this process and would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions-

1. How do I go about at this point finding a Roman Rite priest who would be able to explain the catechesis of the Eastern Rite and be willing to confirm me knowing that I would not be staying at that parish?
2. Are there any good Chrismation resources you might recommend to an adult coming into the Eastern church?
3. Any other thoughts or responses of someone who knows this process far better than I? If this is covered in another post, please let me know! I may not be searching with the right keywords!

Perhaps the priest simply meant that you will be Latin Catholic upon your Confirmation/Chrismation. it is the same sacrament. In my parish, the priest would provide the necessary catchesis and Chrismation, regardless of ritual church. It happens all the time. Perhaps there is permission needed behind the scenes, but I’m certain it is a simple process. If the priest you spoke to did not seem interested in having you in his parish, are there other Eastern parishes within reasonable distance?

 

[labonnevivante]

Many thanks for the thoughtful responses!

mliles.com/melkite/chrismation.shtml
Melkites in general have the best Byzantine sources in the US.

Thank you! This is incredibly helpful! I have no doubt we’ll wait a while before transferring- the Byzantine practice is very close to my process with the Orthodox transition the past 2 years but my fiance is very Western so we may explore a nearby Maronite church for his sake.

I believe the priest is mistaken. From what I understand, you would be canonically enrolled in the Latin Church on the basis of your Protestant baptism, but you can be chrismated in an Eastern Catholic Church.

I will explore that more- perhaps the I can find a contact in the head office at the archdiocese may know the process better.

Perhaps the priest simply meant that you will be Latin Catholic upon your Confirmation/Chrismation. it is the same sacrament. In my parish, the priest would provide the necessary catchesis and Chrismation, regardless of ritual church. It happens all the time. Perhaps there is permission needed behind the scenes, but I’m certain it is a simple process. If the priest you spoke to did not seem interested in having you in his parish, are there other Eastern parishes within reasonable distance?

The priest was incredibly warm and welcoming- in fact on our first visit many of those in attendance greeted us and invited us to join them after the Liturgy for coffee and fellowship. The priest came to sit with us and was very engaging! I know that may not always be the case in some of the more culturally exclusive parishes but this one seems to be fairly diverse.

 

[Aramis]

Any catholic priest or bishop can confirm you, sealing you with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. A Roman rite priest needs special permission to do so (but can do so validly but illicitly without it); Roman rite pastor has permission to do so by the law itself at Easter Vigil.

If you wish to become Catholic, the actual requirements for becoming Catholic are that you take some instructions, and make the profession of faith, and have been validly baptized. Usually, you’ll be confirmed at that same liturgy, and then communed.

You are already canonically Roman Rite - Anglican Use, and Roman church. Even if not admitted to the sacraments, if you publicly make the profession of the faith and acceptance of Roman Authority, you’re then an Anglican Rite Catholic. (Unless your baptism was done by someone using other than the “Father, Son, and Holy [ghost/spirit]”.)

To become canonically byzantine, you can then request transfer to the Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Melkite, Romanian, Russian, or Italo-albanian Church as appropriate. (They’re all byzantine Rite, but you’re assigned to a church sui iuris, not a rite specifically.)

 

[MorEphrem]

Thank you! This is incredibly helpful! I have no doubt we’ll wait a while before transferring- the Byzantine practice is very close to my process with the Orthodox transition the past 2 years but my fiance is very Western so we may explore a nearby Maronite church for his sake.

No problem. It greatly disturbs me though that the statement you say makes sense (i.e. that you’ll visit a Maronite parish because it’s so westernized)… I wish it wasn’t so .

 

[twf]

As an Anglican have you considered the Anglican Ordinariate / Anglican-use within the Latin Church? Or are you very much leaning towards the East?

 

[5Loaves]

If you wish to become Catholic, the actual requirements for becoming Catholic are that you take some instructions, and make the profession of faith, and have been validly baptized. Usually, you’ll be confirmed at that same liturgy, and then communed.

Indeed. According to the National Statutes for the Catechumenate set forth by the USCCB, in the US:

Those baptized persons who have lived as Christians and need only instruction in the Catholic tradition and a degree of probation within the Catholic community should not be asked to undergo a full program parallel to the catechumenate" (NSC 31).

Appendix III: National Statutes for the Catechumenate, page 367

"It is preferable that reception into full communion not take place at the Easter Vigil lest there be any confusion of such baptized Christians with the candidates for baptism, possible misunderstanding of or even reflection upon the sacrament of baptism celebrated in another church or ecclesial community . . . " (NSC 33).

Appendix III: National Statutes for the Catechumenate, page 368

Reception should not be delayed any longer than is needed for the Christian Candidate to have an adequate understanding, and acceptance of Church teaching so they may make their profession of faith. The Rite can happen at any Mass-- weekday or Sunday. In extraordinary circumstances it need not take place in Mass.

 

[Vico]

…

How in the world do I become Catholic?

… I would have to come into the church under confirmation through the Roman Rite before coming to the Eastern Rite.

1. How do I go about at this point finding a Roman Rite priest who would be able to explain the catechesis of the Eastern Rite and be willing to confirm me knowing that I would not be staying at that parish? …

If you apply for a transfer to an eastern Catholic church after reception, it may or may not be approved. For a Latin Catholic to receive Chrismation in an eastern Catholic church requires that the eastern Catholic priest have approval of the Latin bishop, in order for it to be licit (in areas with overlapping territory). Normally a Christian coming into full communion with the Catholic Church would receive Confirmation or Chrysmation at that time if not already validly confirmed (Orthodox confirmation is accepted).

We had a Latin Catholic transfer canonically to the Byzantine parish, after his wife and one son was baptized in the Byzantine Catholic Church. That type of transfer is allowed by canon law (due to the spouse).

 

[babochka]

If you apply for a transfer to an eastern Catholic church after reception, it may or may not be approved. For a Latin Catholic to receive Chrismation in an eastern Catholic church requires that the eastern Catholic priest have approval of the Latin bishop, in order for it to be licit (in areas with overlapping territory). Normally a Christian coming into full communion with the Catholic Church would receive Confirmation or Chrysmation at that time if not already validly confirmed (Orthodox confirmation is accepted).

We had a Latin Catholic transfer canonically to the Byzantine parish, after his wife and one son was baptized in the Byzantine Catholic Church. That type of transfer is allowed by canon law (due to the spouse).

I suspect this depends upon whom you ask. I know you’ll quote the relevant canons and that’s fine. Canon law is subject to interpretation and that is best done by those with the proper authority to do so. My priest used to have concerns about chrismating those who were canonically Latin, even the children of long-time parishioners. Mostly, he’d been talking to too many Latins. When he asked his own bishop, he was told that he may fully initiate those who are his parishioners and their children. It is to his own bishop that he owes obedience, so that settled the matter for him. This is a priest who is very concerned about doing things right. During the period in which this concerned this, he even sent one baby to the Melkite church for Chrismation, as his mother was a covert from the Antiochian Orthodox Church, and thus canonically Melkite.

Our bishop will be visiting soon to baptize our priest’s baby, at the same time, he will baptize the baby of other parishioners who are canonically Latin.

 

[Vico]

I suspect this depends upon whom you ask. I know you’ll quote the relevant canons and that’s fine. Canon law is subject to interpretation and that is best done by those with the proper authority to do so. My priest used to have concerns about chrismating those who were canonically Latin, even the children of long-time parishioners. Mostly, he’d been talking to too many Latins. When he asked his own bishop, he was told that he may fully initiate those who are his parishioners and their children. It is to his own bishop that he owes obedience, so that settled the matter for him. This is a priest who is very concerned about doing things right. During the period in which this concerned this, he even sent one baby to the Melkite church for Chrismation, as his mother was a covert from the Antiochian Orthodox Church, and thus canonically Melkite.

Our bishop will be visiting soon to baptize our priest’s baby, at the same time, he will baptize the baby of other parishioners who are canonically Latin.

What is valid is not always licit and many are not aware of the canon law since it was revised. Also bishops may make agreements among themselves. My Byzantine priest said he does not have a free hand and must get permissions for various sacraments given to the Latins. Where my parish is there are Latin parishes so it is not a matter of moral impossibility, and the Latin Catholics in the parish have not been placed in the care of my pastor or my bishop, so my pastor does not have jurisdiction for them in all matters.

 

[babochka]

What is valid is not always licit and many are not aware of the canon law since it was revised.** Also bishops may make agreements among themselves. **My Byzantine priest said he does not have a free hand and must get permissions for various sacraments given to the Latins. Where my parish is there are Latin parishes so it is not a matter of moral impossibility, and the Latin Catholics in the parish have not been placed in the care of my pastor or my bishop, so my pastor does not have jurisdiction for them in all matters.

The bolded above is a good point and we would do well to remember than in general when we are using terms such as ilicit in specific situations, whether in liturgy or any other situations. Many times permission has been granted in specific situations, and most people know nothing about it.

In my case, and throughout my eparchy, Latin rite Catholics have been fully initiated for all of my 40+ years. I assume that any necessary permissions have been granted and remain in force. Generally, I assume that my priests and bishop know what they are about.

 

[Vico]

The bolded above is a good point and we would do well to remember than in general when we are using terms such as ilicit in specific situations, whether in liturgy or any other situations. Many times permission has been granted in specific situations, and most people know nothing about it.

In my case, and throughout my eparchy, Latin rite Catholics have been fully initiated for all of my 40+ years. I assume that any necessary permissions have been granted and remain in force. Generally, I assume that my priests and bishop know what they are about.

Whenever a Latin Catholic minister lawfully celebrates the sacraments for eastern Catholics, these sacraments are entered in the appropriate registers of the Latin Catholic parish, and conversely. So the records can be verified to see what was approved.

Parishes maintain registers which may include several for:

1. Register of Catechumens
2. Book of the Elect
3. Reception Into Full Communion
4. Baptism
5. Confirmation
6. First Communion
7. Marriage Record (including convalidation and radical sanation)
8. Ordination Register
9. Death Record

 

[5Loaves]

The bolded above is a good point and we would do well to remember than in general when we are using terms such as ilicit in specific situations, whether in liturgy or any other situations. Many times permission has been granted in specific situations, and most people know nothing about it.

In my case, and throughout my eparchy, Latin rite Catholics have been fully initiated for all of my 40+ years. I assume that any necessary permissions have been granted and remain in force. Generally, I assume that my priests and bishop know what they are about.

The confusion may also be added to for those of us served by Latin Church bi-ritual priests who are under obedience to their Latin Bishops, and/or provincials. My parish has always been served by these generous priests. Both of the local Melkite parishes are presently served by bi-ritual Latin priests, one is a Dominican, the other a Jesuit.

 

[Vico]

The confusion may also be added to for those of us served by Latin Church bi-ritual priests who are under obedience to their Latin Bishops, and/or provincials. My parish has always been served by these generous priests. Both of the local Melkite parishes are presently served by bi-ritual Latin priests, one is a Dominican, the other a Jesuit.

That is an important issue that you mention. The fact there are indults for bi-ritual and also adaptation of rite, is based upon the norms which are embodied in both canon laws (CIC and CCEO) are that the faithful are to follow the sacramental disciplines according to the church of ascription, rather than the church sui iuris of the parish attended. The clergy follow the liturgical rites of their own sui iuris church in the administration of the sacraments (yet the laws make an exception for matrimony). This is important to preserve the proper traditions, and that the sacraments not be invalid or illicit.