Confirmation? Please Help

[Teencatholic42]

Okay so I’m a year away from starting the process of confirmation and I’m struggling with a few different things. I disagree with a few things that the church teaches, though I agree with a lot of it. I don’t know if that means I shouldn’t be confirmed in this religion. Are there other religions that are very similar to catholicism? For example I don’t really get why contraception is not okay, but natural family planning is… Just some things like that… I mean I still agree with the big things like no sex before marriage, abortion is wrong, ect. It’s just confusing me, because some of the most widely debated subjects that the catholic church has, I disagree with (or at least struggle with). I’m not really sure what I believe about gay marriage… But I have yet to hear an incredibly convincing argument from either side… And what about masturbation? Why is that a sin even if it’s just for a release and no pornography is involved? Some things in the church just don’t make sense to me, even after hours of reflecting and thinking… I feel like it’s a poor choice to be confirmed in a faith that I don’t fully understand which is what I’m struggling with right now… I love God and don’t want to displease him, but I have no idea what to do… If you could help thatd be great, thanks!

 

[Nelka]

Nothing is quite like the Catholic church.

Contraception is like receiving Communion and spitting it out afterwards.
Natural family planning is like not receiving Communion.

Neither consumed the Host but one should appear much worse to you.

My parents were told to use nfp as the doctors told her if she got pregnant again it would kill her. No contraception though. I’m not going to ask if they still do.

I’m not an expert in this manner, we were taught about it by our priest and deacon who used it but we don’t need it.

When two gays “marry”, do you think they just want to live together? No they want to do things that are against church teaching.

You must speak to your priest, Satan is confusing you and trying to get you out of the church.

 

[Bluegoat]

It is pretty normal for a young person to feel that they do not fully understand the teachings of their church. It’s pretty normal for an adult too. There is no way to answer this for sure, but some questions to think about:

1. Do you have confidence that the Catholic Church is probably correct about these things, even if you don’t understand it yet?
2. Are you willing to abide by the teachings that you don’t understand?
3. During the Confirmation ceremony, would you have to make promises. Would you have to actually lie to answer them?

Since you are a year away, you should probably find some good resources to look into the questions you have. Don’t try to be really critical, but try your best to understand the Catholic position. Remember that these are difficult questions and the answers may not actually be simple or easy.

Ask someone you trust for good resources.

If you ultimately find you are not satisfied, do remember that you don’t need to leave the Catholic Church. You can put off Confirmation until you think you are ready. This would be something to maybe talk to your parents and priest about ahead of time so you don’t spring it on them at the last moment. Priests can often be very supportive about this kind of thing if you seem to have your wits about you.

If you are interested in other religions it is never time ill-spent to learn about them. Even if you remain a life-long Catholic, it will be useful information, especially if you go about it in a logical way. But since you are on a bit of a dead-line, it might be best to do the research on the topics that concern you first.

One thing I would say, and this is as a person who became a Christian as an adult after looking at a variety of religions: it is not possible to make a perfect rational decision about religion. Almost all of them could give enough material for a life-time of study to understand them well. So a a very thorough understanding of the religion you are raised with is really a good place to start.

 

[teachccd]

My being a confirmation facilitator allows me to know for a fact that many young people have your very same questions. Questions are very good and that is how we learn. Your questions concerning birth control, masturbation and homosexuality are the three main “biggies” that we deal with in our group discussions. Will you have a facilitator and is this a two year journey? Our Catholic faith is about a Person and not about ideas. Our Catholic faith is about Jesus Christ and the Church that He founded. Looking for something “close” is not the answer since “close” is not the Church that Christ founded. It is much better to remain in the truth and iron out your misunderstandings of what God requires from us.

So, hang in there and know that you are not alone. A good catechist should be able to guide you into a better understanding of the Church’s position on these and other topics. My prayers are with you and I pray that you follow through and open your ears and your heart. God bless you… teachccd

 

[mcrow]

It’s OK to not agree with the church or simply not understand the teachings. If you outright deny the teachings, then it’s problem.

Most of us have questions about the teachings of the church and that’s perfectly fine. However, you have to trust that the Church and it’s centuries of knowledge, blessed by the Holy Spirit, knows what’s best for us and what the Lord’s intent for us are.

 

[puzzleannie]

Okay so I’m a year away from starting the process of confirmation and I’m struggling with a few different things. I disagree with a few things that the church teaches, though I agree with a lot of it. I don’t know if that means I shouldn’t be confirmed in this religion. !

are you sure you even know what the Church teaches about these issues? that is do you understand the source of the teaching, and the complete teaching? A large part of your preparation is designed specifically to address and answer such questions. Do you think it makes sense to decide not to accept the bishop’s call to Confirmation on the basis of some questions that might very well be answered in the next few months? Go through the preparation with docility and humility. These are the primary virtues that you should be developing during this time, because they are prerequisites for accepting the action of the Holy Spirit in you. My guess is you will find your doubts erased, and your purpose made firm during this process even and especially through the parts of the process that you find most annoying, distasteful or lame.

 

[stringbeanduck]

are you sure you even know what the Church teaches about these issues? that is do you understand the source of the teaching, and the complete teaching? A large part of your preparation is designed specifically to address and answer such questions. Do you think it makes sense to decide not to accept the bishop’s call to Confirmation on the basis of some questions that might very well be answered in the next few months? Go through the preparation with docility and humility. These are the primary virtues that you should be developing during this time, because they are prerequisites for accepting the action of the Holy Spirit in you. My guess is you will find your doubts erased, and your purpose made firm during this process even and especially through the parts of the process that you find most annoying, distasteful or lame.

I agree. It’s not exactly easy for teen to fully understand the teachings of the church. In my opinion, a lot of people fall out of the faith or outright reject it because they hear “no this” or “no that” and don’t understand the theology behind it.

I would write up these questions and concerns and voice them with a priest or a knowledgeable adult in the faith. Our youth group had box where kids could slip pieces of paper through with questions about things they didn’t understand and the adults would fit into the lesson plan for the next meeting.

 

[DavidBrown]

I don’t believe that anyone actually answered your most important question of whether or not you should be Confirmed. The Confirmation journey is not for Catholic who have everything figured out. It’s for Catholics who are journeying. Everyone struggles with different aspects of the faith - this is normal. The Gift of Confirmation helps us to seek the True answers that the Church has safeguarded since the time of Jesus. And there is a big difference between understanding and belief. None of us fully understands how 1 God can be 3 different persons and still 1 God - but we still believe that it’s true.

I can assure you that the Church has never simply “decreed” something without reason. Everything that the Church says and believes is for a reason. If you seek out the reason with an open heart, I guarantee that the answer will make sense.

For instance, with gay marriage, the Church understands that it is not truly what God intended marriage to be. Marriage predates every known religion and government (God instituted it in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve). We cannot be so arrogant as to presume to change God’s meaning behind marriage. God created marriage to be unitive (that is, to bring the couple closer together by the full and intimate sharing of each other - especially through sex) and procreative (that is, that every sex act is open to bearing children. This is why Natural Family Planning is acceptable - because it works with the natural cycle that God has given to women and foreign barrier - and contraception is not - because it uses a physical or chemical barrier to try to preempt God from creating life). Any sex act that isn’t used to help bring a married couple closer together AND is open to possibility of new life is not what God intended it to be. The Church is also very clear that people who have homosexual feelings are not “bad” people and they must be treated with the respect and dignity that everyone deserves.

I hope this helps. It’s important to remember that our Faith is a lifelong journey. When you don’t understand a Church teaching, believe the Truth of it and seek the reason for it. We may never fully understand why we believe what we do, but remember that Jesus promised the Church the Spirit of Truth which will guide us in all Truth.

 

[PJM]

=Teencatholic42;7821739]Okay so I’m a year away from starting the process of confirmation and I’m struggling with a few different things. I disagree with a few things that the church teaches, though I agree with a lot of it. I don’t know if that means I shouldn’t be confirmed in this religion. Are there other religions that are very similar to catholicism? For example I don’t really get why contraception is not okay, but natural family planning is… Just some things like that… I mean I still agree with the big things like no sex before marriage, abortion is wrong, ect. It’s just confusing me, because some of the most widely debated subjects that the catholic church has, I disagree with (or at least struggle with). I’m not really sure what I believe about gay marriage… But I have yet to hear an incredibly convincing argument from either side… And what about masturbation? Why is that a sin even if it’s just for a release and no pornography is involved? Some things in the church just don’t make sense to me, even after hours of reflecting and thinking… I feel like it’s a poor choice to be confirmed in a faith that I don’t fully understand which is what I’m struggling with right now… I love God and don’t want to displease him, but I have no idea what to do… If you could help thatd be great, thanks!

Are their “Other religions” that subplant Catholism… Only in trying to do so; none able to accpmplish it for some of the following reasons:

One God= One Faith= Only One Church… this was true from the Book of Genesis on:

Exo. 3: Exod.3: 6, 14-15 "And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.”

NOWHERE in the Bible does God desire anything more than His One Faith, One God [Triune in the NT], and One Church. That my friend is why Jesus Gave the Key’s to he kingdom of Heaven to One Man,[Peter] with instructions for ONE set of Faith beleifs; based on One New and everlasting Covenant. [Mt. 16:15-19*], [Mt. 28:19-20]

Mt. 16:15-19* "He [JESUS] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [you; Peter] I will build my church[SINGULAR] , and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I [JESUS] will give you [Simom Peter] the keys [ALL ACCESS TO HEAVEN!] of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind
on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” [Bind and Loose refers to Unlimited Goverance and forgiveness of sins].

The NT has over 100 references to ONLY one Church; One Faith based on One New everlasting Covenant.

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

**Eph. 2: 18-22 **“ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Jer.3: 15 "`And I will give you shepherds [Plural for POPES] after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.

HERE ARE SOME EXCLUSIVE CATHOLIC BENEFITS

God Himself in Person [not only in Spirit but in His Glorified Body] WOW!

Known forgiveness of sins [Jh. 20:16-23*]

The Entire Bible from the Origin of the Bible. The Entire NT was written by Catholics.

All Seven Sacraments including Receiving Jesus Himslef; all valid and Licit ONLY in the CC… And many extra graces not available outside the CC

Only in the CC can one find the Fullness of Grace; of Truth and of Love

Sens me a PM and I’ll tell you more,

God Bless,
Pat

 

[nch1917]

During your Confirmation you must promise that you agree with everything that the Catholic Church teaches.

This requires you to do at least three things:

1. Seek out what Church teaching is on as much as possible.
2. Attempt to understand why Church teaching is the way it is.
3. Accept wholeheartedly the teachings of the Church as absolute truths.

If you cannot do this, then you should not be Confirmed.

You can do some research on the teachings that you presently have qualms about, but to briefly address some of the few that you mentioned, I submit the following:

A. Contraception is not “okay” because, as stated in Humanae Vitae, “an act of mutual love which impairs the capacity to transmit life which God the Creator, through specific laws, has built into it, frustrates His design which constitutes the norm of marriage, and contradicts the will of the Author of life.” I would encourage you to read Humanae Vitae in its entirety, as it not only defines the Church’s teaching on the matter, but offers perhaps the most understandable, concise, and beautiful explanation as to the reasoning behind the teaching.

B. Natural family planning is not “okay,” unless you and your spouse have “well-grounded” reasons for “spacing births.” Although there may seem to be a contradiction between this and the Church’s teaching on, for instance, condoms, there is not. Here is the Church’s explanation, from Humanae Vitae:

In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable.

C. Gay marriage is wrong for a number of reasons, but perhaps the simplest of those is the fact that the term itself is an oxymoron. The idea can be (and admittedly has been) fabricated by states and societies, but in reality marriage is a sacrament that was created and defined by God. Marriage cannot be “gay” anymore than Confirmation can be Jewish, or Baptism can be administered with sand as opposed to water. It is just impossible and falls outside the definition of the sacrament. As far as the homosexual act is concerned, it too, like contraception, is contrary to God’s order and nature.

D. Regarding masturbation, as with all things, the ends do not justify the means. Even if the sole intended result is simply “a release” (which is a vague and dubious result at best), the sinner is, again, still committing an act that is contrary to God’s intended order. Persona Humana further explains why the act is wrong:

Masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act. The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. For it lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes “the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love.” All deliberate exercise of sexuality must be reserved to this regular relationship. Even if it cannot be proved that Scripture condemns this sin by name, the tradition of the Church has rightly understood it to be condemned in the New Testament when the latter speaks of “impurity,” “unchasteness” and other vices contrary to chastity and continence.

I infer from your username that you are a teenager. Most Roman Catholics are Confirmed when they are 13. If you are a year away, then that makes you about 12, or perhaps a little older. Given the adult nature of these topics, I can sympathize with much of your confusion. Bear in mind that you’ve only been exposed to this stuff for (hopefully!) a very short period of time. It is good that you are planning on taking your Confirmation seriously, or not at all. I would encourage you to read the documents I’ve referenced in order to seek a basic understanding of Church teaching and reasoning on these matters before coming to, and acting upon, any conclusions.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html

 

[105lynne]

My husband is not a practicing Catholic, but I am. Birth control is always a hot topic in my house because he sees no difference in natural family planning (nfp) and contraception. This is how I explained it… First of all, think of 2 people on trial for murder. I person killed in self defense and the other had a detailed plan to torture and kill. The end result in both cases is murder, but the circumstances prior to it are COMPLETELY different. NFP versus contraception is the same type of thing. The end result is no pregnancy, but the means in which you go about it is different. Different, in that, contraception allows you to do what you want when you want. NFP requires discipline and sacrifice. We all remember the ultimate sacrifice–Jesus Christ. No one in history has ever suffered so for the love of others. This is a great example to us. An excellent way to show love is to sacrifice what you want for the good or better of others. We abstain from sex as a sacrifice for the greater good of our family. Is it easy? Hardly ever! Is it frustrating? Of course, but it is what is best for our family right now. We have four kids and CANNOT afford any more. If we are blessed with another, fine. We know that it’s God’s divine will at work and He will provide. Some people (my husband, too, sometimes) think that idea is primitive and naive. I say trusting God is the least naive thing I could do in my life. He hasn’t done me wrong yet, and I know He never will. I have no right to take a life. But I also have no right to try to prevent a life, either…

 

[excubitor]

When we say that we do not agree with the churches teachings we are basically saying that our opinions and intellectual analysis of the issues is superior to the Pope’s and superior to the teachers of the church going back to the earliest times of the apostles.

Therefore being confirmed in the church is not just a matter of education in the articles of the faith, but also a submission to the teachings and practices of the church.

It turns out that most of our intellectual analysis and opinions are driven more by emotions and lusts than by objective facts. Therefore, when we notice that our opinions and beliefs are at odds with the church, then we should not be suspicious of the church, but rather we should be suspicious of our own motives.

The most wisest and learned masters of the church were also the most humble and obedient to her lead.

 

[excubitor]

My husband is not a practicing Catholic, but I am. Birth control is always a hot topic in my house because he sees no difference in natural family planning (nfp) and contraception. This is how I explained it… First of all, think of 2 people on trial for murder. I person killed in self defense and the other had a detailed plan to torture and kill. The end result in both cases is murder, but the circumstances prior to it are COMPLETELY different. NFP versus contraception is the same type of thing. The end result is no pregnancy, but the means in which you go about it is different. Different, in that, contraception allows you to do what you want when you want. NFP requires discipline and sacrifice. We all remember the ultimate sacrifice–Jesus Christ. No one in history has ever suffered so for the love of others. This is a great example to us. An excellent way to show love is to sacrifice what you want for the good or better of others. We abstain from sex as a sacrifice for the greater good of our family. Is it easy? Hardly ever! Is it frustrating? Of course, but it is what is best for our family right now. We have four kids and CANNOT afford any more. If we are blessed with another, fine. We know that it’s God’s divine will at work and He will provide. Some people (my husband, too, sometimes) think that idea is primitive and naive. I say trusting God is the least naive thing I could do in my life. He hasn’t done me wrong yet, and I know He never will. I have no right to take a life. But I also have no right to try to prevent a life, either…

Scripture only provides one feasible excuse for abstinence within marriage, and that is consentual abstinence for prayer and fasting. Abstinence to avoid pregnancy is not expressly permissable in scripture or in the patristic writings. However, neither is it expressly forbidden. Therefore a rather recent Pope has allowed NFP just as recent Popes have allowed communion in the hand and many other indults. In fact the said Pope cited “serious reason” for the use of NFP. The catechism downgraded this to “just reason”. Problem is that every man has his own idea of what constitutes a just reason.

NFP often get’s marketed as a Catholic alternative to ABC. But really it is essential that motive is addressed. If the motive of NFP is to avoid having a large family then it is wrong. But if it is used for a temporary, serious or just reason like recovery from a surgery, period of extreme poverty, severe mental disorder, or illness then it is permissable.

As with many aspects of moral theology, we have guidance from the church but then we are expected to make our own decisions after a careful analysis of our motives. In the end, God judges each man and woman according to the heart. Nor must we judge our neighbour.

I think your analogy with murder and torture/kill is extremely poor. Both of which are intrinsically evil. NFP is not intrinsically evil, but it can be evil if used with the wrong motive.
A better analogy is between murder and killing an assailant.
Murder is intrinsically evil just as ABC is.
Killing an attacker might be permissable depending on the circumstance.
Was it necessary to kill the attacker?
Where did the attack take place. Inside the home at night by surprise or in broad daylight.
Was there an opportunity to flee rather than retaliate with violence.
Was it possible to disable the attacker rather than kill them.
Was undue force used to defend oneself.
Was an illicit weapon used in the defence. For example a concealed weapon like a knife.

So we see the moral theology for killing in self defence is very complex.
Moral theology for a just war is also very complex.
Moral theology for NFP is likewise very complex.

However I will say, that our constant focus should be to avoid the use of NFP and remain open to pregnancy and life just as you would avoid the situation where you are killing an attacker.

I want to take you up on your statement “We abstain from sex as a sacrifice for the greater good of our family.” . What does this mean? What is the “greater good” for the family? How can reducing the number of children be a greater good. Does this mean that having more children is a greater evil? Is the greater good in your mind greater material prosperity, like as if the more children you have means that each one gets a smaller piece of pie? How do you know that reducing the number of children is in fact making your family poorer? Are you not limiting the number of brothers and sisters for your existing children? Aren’t you restricting your own opportunity to have more children and grand children.

I’m not judging you, but I your “greater good” comment certainly sets off alarm bells to me.

 

[PJM]

=105lynne;7843826]My husband is not a practicing Catholic, but I am. Birth control is always a hot topic in my house because he sees no difference in natural family planning (nfp) and contraception. This is how I explained it… First of all, think of 2 people on trial for murder. I person killed in self defense and the other had a detailed plan to torture and kill. The end result in both cases is murder, but the circumstances prior to it are COMPLETELY different. NFP versus contraception is the same type of thing. The end result is no pregnancy, but the means in which you go about it is different. Different, in that, contraception allows you to do what you want when you want. NFP requires discipline and sacrifice. We all remember the ultimate sacrifice–Jesus Christ. No one in history has ever suffered so for the love of others. This is a great example to us. An excellent way to show love is to sacrifice what you want for the good or better of others. We abstain from sex as a sacrifice for the greater good of our family. Is it easy? Hardly ever! Is it frustrating? Of course, but it is what is best for our family right now. We have four kids and CANNOT afford any more. If we are blessed with another, fine. We know that it’s God’s divine will at work and He will provide. Some people (my husband, too, sometimes) think that idea is primitive and naive. I say trusting God is the least naive thing I could do in my life. He hasn’t done me wrong yet, and I know He never will. I have no right to take a life. But I also have no right to try to prevent a life, either…

Very interestering! THANKS,

NFP permits God the options that BELONG to God

Contraception takes God out of the “picture.”

Either God is in charhe of our lives or we are The responsibility CANNOT be split.

God or me:thumbsup:

BIRTH ISSUES

Genesis 4:1 The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. ‘I have acquired a man with the help of Yahweh,’ she said.

AGAPE BIBLE STUDY: www.agapebiblestudy.com

Question: How many Old Testament women can you recall who were barren but later, by the will of God, gave birth to men who had an important impact on salvation history? Name the women and their sons

Answer:
Sarah was barren prior to the birth of Isaac (Gen 11:30; 21:1-3).
Rebekah was barren prior to the birth of Jacob/Israel (Gen 25:21-26).
Rachel was barren prior to the birth of Joseph (Gen 29:31; 30:22-23).
Manoah’s wife was barren prior to the birth of the Judge Samson (Judg 13:1-7, 24).
Hannah was barren prior to the birth of the Prophet Samuel (1 Sam 1:1-5, 19-21).
*
In each case the bareness of the mother was reversed by God’s intervention.* It is by God’s divine will that sons were born from these women’sons who played an important role in God’s plan of salvation:

Isaac continued the line of the “promised seed” and the covenant made with Abraham continued through Isaac (Gen 26:3-5).
The covenant continued through Jacob who God renamed Israel. He became the father of the 12 tribes of Israel who were the people from whom the “promised seed” would come forth (Gen 32:28; 46:8-25; 49:28).
Joseph, son of Jacob/Israel became the instrument by which God sent the children of Israel into Egypt (45:16-20; 46:6-7, 26-27).
Samson, a Nazariate Judge of Israel, brought God’s judgment on the pagan gods of the Philistines and those who worshipped them (Judg 16:23-31).
The Prophet Samuel was God’s last representative in the era of the Judges of Israel and the holy prophet who anointed David as God’s chosen king of Israel. David was the “father” (ancestor) of the future Redeemer-Messiah (1 Sam 3:19-20; 16:1-13; 2 Sam 5:1-3; Mt 1:1).

The PRIMARY purpose of Sexual Union is the Procreation of Children; [Gen 1:29]; it’s secondary purpose is dare I say recreation as the GLUE that helps to hold a marriage togeather.

John.1 Verses 12 to 14: “But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

God Bless and HANG in there…

***1Cor.7: 1-5 *** "Now concerning the matters about which you wrote. It is well for a man not to touch a woman. But because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
[4] For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does. *Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control. *

 

[105lynne]

Scripture only provides one feasible excuse for abstinence within marriage, and that is consentual abstinence for prayer and fasting. Abstinence to avoid pregnancy is not expressly permissable in scripture or in the patristic writings. However, neither is it expressly forbidden. Therefore a rather recent Pope has allowed NFP just as recent Popes have allowed communion in the hand and many other indults. In fact the said Pope cited “serious reason” for the use of NFP. The catechism downgraded this to “just reason”. Problem is that every man has his own idea of what constitutes a just reason.
NFP often get’s marketed as a Catholic alternative to ABC. But really it is essential that motive is addressed. If the motive of NFP is to avoid having a large family then it is wrong. But if it is used for a temporary, serious or just reason like recovery from a surgery, period of extreme poverty, severe mental disorder, or illness then it is permissable.
As with many aspects of moral theology, we have guidance from the church but then we are expected to make our own decisions after a careful analysis of our motives. In the end, God judges each man and woman according to the heart. Nor must we judge our neighbour.

I think your analogy with murder and torture/kill is extremely poor. Both of which are intrinsically evil. NFP is not intrinsically evil, but it can be evil if used with the wrong motive.
A better analogy is between murder and killing an assailant.
Murder is intrinsically evil just as ABC is.
Killing an attacker might be permissable depending on the circumstance.
Was it necessary to kill the attacker?
Was undue force used to defend oneself.
Was an illicit weapon used in the defence. For example a concealed weapon like a knife.

So we see the moral theology for killing in self defence is very complex.
Moral theology for a just war is also very complex.
Moral theology for NFP is likewise very complex.

However I will say, that our constant focus should be to avoid the use of NFP and remain open to pregnancy and life just as you would avoid the situation where you are killing an attacker.

I want to take you up on your statement “We abstain from sex as a sacrifice for the greater good of our family.” . What does this mean? What is the “greater good” for the family? How can reducing the number of children be a greater good. Does this mean that having more children is a greater evil? Is the greater good in your mind greater material prosperity, like as if the more children you have means that each one gets a smaller piece of pie? How do you know that reducing the number of children is in fact making your family poorer? Are you not limiting the number of brothers and sisters for your existing children? Aren’t you restricting your own opportunity to have more children and grand children.

I’m not judging you, but I your “greater good” comment certainly sets off alarm bells to me.

I apologize for the term “greater good”. I certainly don’t mean a smaller family or limiting siblings for my children is a good thing. I thought this whole time that I was loving the way a Catholic should, despite the fact that the majority of the world tells me I’m crazy to live my life this way. You said in your response that, in the case of extreme poverty, using nfp is ok. Not sure my existence is EXTREME poverty, but I did have a visit from child protective services because they got word that we had no food in our house and my kids have no insurance. They brought applications for food stamps, Medicaid, etc., which I am in the process of applying for. We had a fire next door to our house in October and the house is very badly damaged. We had no home insurance when the fire hit, so we have no way to fix this. The owner of the place that burned down is rebuilding now and has NO intention of fixing the damage that his fire caused our home. We can’t afford a lawyer to fight this.
I’m not “crying the blues” here. I’m just trying to justify the fact that we have plenty on our plate as it is. I would LOVE to have more babies. Honestly, I can’t imagine not having any more. My kids are my absolute joy! But I also have a husband who is very difficult time following any Catholic teaching. My mother passed away 2 years ago and she was the ONLY understanding Catholic voice in my life. I live I a town where there are barely any Catholics. I’ve had strangers tell me I’m going to Hell. My own mother-in-law has said such things. Despite all of this, I’m sticking to my guns about nfp and not using abc. So the fact that you said that I’m setting off bells with you really upset me. Maybe my analogy wasn’t the best. I was trying to put it in simple terms. To help people to think about previous circumstances being different with the same end result. I have no safe place to express my Catholic self (except church, of course). I was excited about this website and yet, still got somewhat criticized for doing what I thought was the right thing.
I’m thankful I have a husband who is willing to put his own opinions about nfp aside because it’s important to me. He WILL NOT come near me if he knows I’m fertile. What do you suggest I do? Lie to him about my fertile times so we can have more kids? Force him to have sex when I’m fertile? None of those things are gonna happen, obviously. If you have any more suggestions on how to live my life when you know nothing about my specific situation, feel free. I know at the end of your last post you said you weren’t judging me, but sometimes I feel like it’s me against the world. Bottom line: I’m being the absolute best Catholic I can be, and it’s rarely easy. I came to this website looking for support and perhaps to lend my support to others. All I ask is that you, as a fellow Catholic, pray for me and my personal struggles and I’ll do the same for you!

 

[excubitor]

I apologize for the term “greater good”. I certainly don’t mean a smaller family or limiting siblings for my children is a good thing. I thought this whole time that I was loving the way a Catholic should, despite the fact that the majority of the world tells me I’m crazy to live my life this way.

I am disappointed that you regard my post was in any way judging you. In fact, I was asking for clarification and expressing concern at your choice of terminology “greater good”.

You said in your response that, in the case of extreme poverty, using nfp is ok. Not sure my existence is EXTREME poverty, but I did have a visit from child protective services because they got word that we had no food in our house and my kids have no insurance. They brought applications for food stamps, Medicaid, etc., which I am in the process of applying for. We had a fire next door to our house in October and the house is very badly damaged. We had no home insurance when the fire hit, so we have no way to fix this. The owner of the place that burned down is rebuilding now and has NO intention of fixing the damage that his fire caused our home. We can’t afford a lawyer to fight this.
I’m not “crying the blues” here. I’m just trying to justify the fact that we have plenty on our plate as it is. I would LOVE to have more babies. Honestly, I can’t imagine not having any more. My kids are my absolute joy! But I also have a husband who is very difficult time following any Catholic teaching. My mother passed away 2 years ago and she was the ONLY understanding Catholic voice in my life. I live I a town where there are barely any Catholics. I’ve had strangers tell me I’m going to Hell. My own mother-in-law has said such things. Despite all of this, I’m sticking to my guns about nfp and not using abc. So the fact that you said that I’m setting off bells with you really upset me. Maybe my analogy wasn’t the best. I was trying to put it in simple terms. To help people to think about previous circumstances being different with the same end result. I have no safe place to express my Catholic self (except church, of course). I was excited about this website and yet, still got somewhat criticized for doing what I thought was the right thing.
I’m thankful I have a husband who is willing to put his own opinions about nfp aside because it’s important to me. He WILL NOT come near me if he knows I’m fertile. What do you suggest I do? Lie to him about my fertile times so we can have more kids? Force him to have sex when I’m fertile?

I believe that your circumstances as you have described them justify the use of nfp, particular given that your husband is not a practicing Catholic. I commend you in these difficult circumstances for using NFP and resisting the temptation to ABC. However in a general sense I believe that NFP is used when there is no serious impediment to having children, in order to maintain a certain level of material prosperity. Of course I am not advocating lieing to your husband. Surely you realise that.

None of those things are gonna happen, obviously. If you have any more suggestions on how to live my life when you know nothing about my specific situation, feel free.

Your cynical comment is unnecessary. I never made any suggestion on how you should live your life. I never pretended to have any knowledge of your specific situation. I was making a general opposition to NFP, and not an opposition to NFP in every specific case. Surely that was very apparent in my post.

I know at the end of your last post you said you weren’t judging me, but sometimes I feel like it’s me against the world. Bottom line: I’m being the absolute best Catholic I can be, and it’s rarely easy. I came to this website looking for support and perhaps to lend my support to others. All I ask is that you, as a fellow Catholic, pray for me and my personal struggles and I’ll do the same for you!

Yes absolutely. Obviously you are a fine example to us all and I admire your courage to maintain your Catholic principles. I think its disgraceful that you have been persecuted by your family and community. I will remember your sorrows and pray for your intentions when I next say the rosary to our Lady of Sorrows.

 

[105lynne]

I am disappointed that you regard my post was in any way judging you. In fact, I was asking for clarification and expressing concern at your choice of terminology “greater good”.

I believe that your circumstances as you have described them justify the use of nfp, particular given that your husband is not a practicing Catholic. I commend you in these difficult circumstances for using NFP and resisting the temptation to ABC. However in a general sense I believe that NFP is used when there is no serious impediment to having children, in order to maintain a certain level of material prosperity. Of course I am not advocating lieing to your husband. Surely you realise that.

Your cynical comment is unnecessary. I never made any suggestion on how you should live your life. I never pretended to have any knowledge of your specific situation. I was making a general opposition to NFP, and not an opposition to NFP in every specific case. Surely that was very apparent in my post.

Yes absolutely. Obviously you are a fine example to us all and I admire your courage to maintain your Catholic principles. I think its disgraceful that you have been persecuted by your family and community. I will remember your sorrows and pray for your intentions when I next say the rosary to our Lady of Sorrows.

Thank you! I will pray for you as well! I appreciate your gracious replies. I sincerely apologize if I sounded defensive or ugly. I’m going through a great deal right now…much more then I mentioned in my other post. Would you mind also praying for my husbands conversion (preferably a peaceful one)? What a difference it would make if we were united in that way! Thanks again for your understanding and, of course, your prayers! God bless you!

 

[excubitor]

Thank you! I will pray for you as well! I appreciate your gracious replies. I sincerely apologize if I sounded defensive or ugly. I’m going through a great deal right now…much more then I mentioned in my other post. Would you mind also praying for my husbands conversion (preferably a peaceful one)? What a difference it would make if we were united in that way! Thanks again for your understanding and, of course, your prayers! God bless you!

That’s OK. I am praying. And for your husbands conversion. I pray that you can get your house fixed and that the people who caused the fire can be pricked in their conscience to help you out.

Can I recommend this website themostholyrosary.com/index.htm .?
Enlist the aid of our blessed mother especially through the rosary.