Confirmation versus baptism in the Holy Spirit

[ltwin]

Most Pentecostal Christians do get baptized, though. However, I (the OP can correct me if I am wrong here) they don’t baptize children… they require a post age of reason statement of faith. So there is normally a conversion experience, which would be followed by baptism at a later date, much like we initiate unbaptized adults.

No we don’t baptize children. We dedicate them to the Lord soon after they are born, and to be honest it is sometimes very similar to baptism. In my church, what usually happens is that the pastor reads an already planned service which explains how the Bible tells parents to raise children in the faith and explains the story of the Prophet Samuel being dedicated by his mother to God. Then the parents will hand the baby to the pastor’s wife and the pastor will take a rose dip it in water and touch the child’s forehead three times and dedicate the child in the name of the Trinity.

A funny story actually is that when I was baptized a couple years ago I was telling someone about it and saying that I hadn’t been baptized yet. My mother corrected me and told me that I had been baptized as a child. This confused me so much because I church doesn’t teach infant baptism, but to my mother, there was no difference between me being dedicated and me being baptized.

 

[swariffin]

The question I have, as a Pentecostal, is how do Catholics view confirmation? I was always under the impression that it was simply a rite of passage, like when you became a teenager you confirmed your infant baptism.

But when I read the about confirmation in the Catholic Catechism it said:

This sounds similar (to me at least) to what Pentecostals call “baptism in the Holy Spirit.” The exception being that (I think) Catholics believe that confirmation completes baptismal grace. Pentecostals, on the other hand, do not connect Christian conversion with either Spirit baptism or water baptism. And (obviously) confirmation is a rite while Spirit baptism as defined by Pentecostals is a very personal and sometimes dramatic religious experience.

The logic I’m using is that for Catholics, baptism essentially means that you’ve become a Christian (right?) and this is followed later on by confirmation. For Pentecostals, the conversion experience is when you become a Christian and this is followed later on by Spirit baptism. Anyway does anyone else think my loose parallel of these two concepts makes sense or am I totally off base here?

Do you recall the “appearance” of the Holy Spirit in the NT? First, it was when Jesus was baptised by John, and second, during the Pentacost, correct? In the first appearance, the Holy Spirit (HS) appeared in the form of a pigeon. What a pigeon symbolized? Pigeon means peace, love, and loyalty. Pigeon has a universal acceptance to symbolized peace, love, and loyalty. That is what the Baptism means. We all are meant to receive peace, love, and being loyal to God who grants us those. In Baptism, we do have the HS in this form of pigeon.

In the confirmation, on the other hand, we have the HS in the form of fire just like the Pentacost. Remember Luke 24 about the 2 deciples who met Jesus during their Journey to Emmaus? Their hearts was burnt within by the things that the “stranger” said. So, during the confirmation sacrament, the HS come to us just like when He came to the disciples during the Pentacost. We are all meant to be and act like the disciples when the HS came to us. Our hearts are supposed to be burnt within by the HS. The confirmation sacrament is our Pentacost.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

No-- The Acts of the Apostles indicated that whole families were baptized into the Church. It is assumed this would have included children, too.

Thanks, I forgot.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

No we don’t baptize children. We dedicate them to the Lord soon after they are born, and to be honest it is sometimes very similar to baptism. In my church, what usually happens is that the pastor reads an already planned service which explains how the Bible tells parents to raise children in the faith and explains the story of the Prophet Samuel being dedicated by his mother to God. Then the parents will hand the baby to the pastor’s wife and the pastor will take a rose dip it in water and touch the child’s forehead three times and dedicate the child in the name of the Trinity.

A funny story actually is that when I was baptized a couple years ago I was telling someone about it and saying that I hadn’t been baptized yet. My mother corrected me and told me that I had been baptized as a child. This confused me so much because I church doesn’t teach infant baptism, but to my mother, there was no difference between me being dedicated and me being baptized.

Thanks for sharing what you were taught as a Pentecostal. But pastors wives and relatives are not how baptism was done in the New Testament: Acts and other sites: by the Apostles, including entire families, obviously children/babies too. The Church teaches that if there is emergency or danger, anyone can Baptize unto Christ, In The Name if The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. I help at our Baptisms, including children, as well as Infants as young as a very few days old. Catholic Clergy do much more than pour a little Holy Water over the forhead; there are several rituals, my favorite is the Old Testament christening with blessed oil, etc., etc. Relatives and Friends come even from a Thousand miles away to attend Baptism, because it is a “Born Again”, into Christian.

• We are, feel “Born Again” every time we receive a Sacrament, like John 20:23 Confession Through the Priest to Christ, forgiven by Christ Himself Through the Priest. Same for receiving The Eucharist: we feel At Peace; I don’t even want to listen to radio after Mass. It’s The Real Presence of The Lord becoming now in us, like food does. ‘Unless you eat my flesh, drink my blood, you can not have Life’ repeatedly in the New Testament. All exactly as The Bible describes, and The Church Lives. The Catholic Church does Mass, Holy Eucharist daily, or as often as possible: doing as Our Lord instructed the Apostles at The Last Supper: “Do This in Remembrance of Me”

:bible1:

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Jewish children (boys, obviously) certainly were not asked if they wanted to be Jewish when circumcised on the 8th day after birth. The Catholic view is that baptism is the new covenant completion of the original instruction to circumcise and is the first step of fulfilling our responsibility as parents to raise our children in the faith. (Thomas Aquinas wrote about this in his Summa Theologica.) The precedent of baptism being an adult profession of faith, outside of the circumstance that the person comes to Christian faith at a time they are past the age of reason, is not well supported by the scriptures. Obviously, early on, most Christians were Jews that were converting as adults. By tradition and references to entire households being brought into the faith and baptized, we know that they also baptized their children into their new faith.

Yes, and the Bible seems to suggest it as well.

As an alternative to infant baptism, as Itwin already mentioned, Pentecostals have baby dedication. It’s very similar. Parents present their babies to the pastor, he reminds them that it is their duty to raise them in the Lord and be faithful Christians, then he prays for them, and, depending on the church, puts oil on the baby too. Lots of family is usually there. It’s a beautiful ceremony, actually. But it’s essentially less biblical than infant baptism.

 

[ltwin]

Thanks for sharing what you were taught as a Pentecostal. But pastors wives and relatives are not how baptism was done in the New Testament:

This wasn’t (despite what my mother thought) a baptism. And it wasn’t performed by relatives or the pastors wife. Relatives are there to promise to raise the child in the Christian faith. The pastor’s wife simply holds the child. The ordained pastor actually performs the ceremony.

Acts and other sites: by the Apostles, including entire families, obviously children/babies too. The Church teaches that if there is emergency or danger, anyone can Baptize unto Christ, In The Name if The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit.

Are you saying that only someone who has been ordained in the Apostolic Succession can perform a valid baptism in most situations? While I respect the Catholic Church’s views on this, for Pentecostals this isn’t an issue. We don’t believe in Apostolic Succession and we strongly believe in the priesthood of all believers. At our baptisms, ordained ministers do it, but there is nothing theologically to prevent a layperson from baptizing someone if it was necessary.

I help at our Baptisms, including children, as well as Infants as young as a very few days old. Catholic Clergy do much more than pour a little Holy Water over the forhead; there are several rituals, my favorite is the Old Testament christening with blessed oil, etc., etc. Relatives and Friends come even from a Thousand miles away to attend Baptism, because it is a “Born Again”, into Christian.

That’s beautiful. We make use of anointing oil as well, however, my church has never used it in baby dedications (maybe other Pentecostals do). Oil isn’t involved in adult baptism either. Pentecostals who ask for prayer will often be anointed with oil. We also anoint and pray over prayer cloths based on Acts 19:11-12.

• We are, feel “Born Again” every time we receive a Sacrament, like John 20:23 Confession Through the Priest to Christ, forgiven by Christ Himself Through the Priest. Same for receiving The Eucharist: we feel At Peace; I don’t even want to listen to radio after Mass. It’s The Real Presence of The Lord becoming now in us, like food does. ‘Unless you eat my flesh, drink my blood, you can not have Life’ repeatedly in the New Testament. All exactly as The Bible describes, and The Church Lives. The Catholic Church does Mass, Holy Eucharist daily, or as often as possible: doing as Our Lord instructed the Apostles at The Last Supper: “Do This in Remembrance of Me”

:bible1:

Is it the Catholic position that the Lord’s Supper has consequences for salvation? I know that Catholics believe that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ. Pentecostals don’t believe this, but communion is important for us (even if we don’t celebrate it as often as we should). It is often after we take communion that the manifest presence of God is felt the strongest among us. The last time my church took communion, afterward an amazing spirit swept through our church. People were crying, on their knees, just praising God. So I think Pentecostals do think the presence of God is in the Lord’s Supper but in a spiritual way.